Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[once_upon]

That’s the only issue I care about!!! People saying Coughlin was a larry Nassar because he was on the list! That’s the thing that killed Coughlin!!

No, you don't know that. Unless you got or have seen a suicide note.
Suicide is a complex issue.

 

[mag]

He does make some good points.

Very good points. A calm and reasoned article.

 

[caseyedwards]

No, you don't know that. Unless you got or have seen a suicide note.
Suicide is a complex issue.

The sister may have and this is based on what the sister said!

Pending resolution of the case, they prevented or had the effect of preventing Coughlin from doing nearly everything he had done in the sport since leaving competitive skating in 2014: coaching, commentating, representing an equipment manufacturer and serving on international and national figure skating athletes’ commissions.

 

[AxelAnnie]

https://safesport.org/policies-procedures

Thanks. Interesting reading.

 

[CaliSteve]

Phil Hersh weighs in with a focus on SafeSport. I think this is responsible reporting. http://www.globetrottingbyphilipher...lved-should-lead-to-more-than-finger-pointing

Thanks for posting!

 

[caseyedwards]

This isn't true, but you've never let facts get in the way before.

Pending resolution of the case, they prevented or had the effect of preventing Coughlin from doing nearly everything he had done in the sport since leaving competitive skating in 2014: coaching, commentating, representing an equipment manufacturer and serving on international and national figure skating athletes’ commissions.

 

[CaliSteve]

The sister may have and this is based on what the sister said!

Pending resolution of the case, they prevented or had the effect of preventing Coughlin from doing nearly everything he had done in the sport since leaving competitive skating in 2014: coaching, commentating, representing an equipment manufacturer and serving on international and national figure skating athletes’ commissions.

From his sisters perspective and may or may not be accurate.

 

[caseyedwards]

You are assuming way too much. Do people make assumptions when someone is put on "a list", yes. Did everyone think he was guilty or compare him to Larry Nassar, No.

John did not permanently lose his jobs. The level of suspensions he receive did temporarily prevent him from continuing, but if the findings came out in his favor, he would have been reinstated.

Maybe maybe not!!

“Pending resolution of the case, they prevented or had the effect of preventing Coughlin from doing nearly everything he had done in the sport since leaving competitive skating in 2014: coaching, commentating, representing an equipment manufacturer and serving on international and national figure skating athletes’ commissions.”

 

[Lovemyvike]

Now that he is dead, I would recommend to the family they contact a lawyer and investigate starting civil proceedings against everyone involved, including the accusers. They have to be careful, though, as if he was guilty of something his reputation will be tarnished - oh wait - that already happened.

The family has nothing to lose. If the family of John has any doubts about his 'guilt' or 'misconduct,' I recommend to them legal actions.

Wait, what???

 

[attyfan]

I'm glad that Hersh explained that it was not that easy to find a name on the SafeSport list. However, does anyone know why a publicly accessible list (as opposed to something password protected or something that only rinks would be able to access) is alwats necessary? I agree that an interim suspension may be needed to protect any one who might be endangered if the accused is allowed to continue. but unless the accused flees, I don't see why the interim suspension of a hypothetical Coach X in Florida should be publicly accessible to Californians.

 

[aftershocks]

It means they will continue if they find out that people who should have reported did not and were covering up.

Covering up what though? A systemic pattern of brutish behavior? Something horrible and completely harmful? Or gossip and innuendo without knowledge or actual witnessing anything substantial? We don't know anything in the absence of detailed information, which none of us have right now. So, let's not equate these allegations with horrific abuse, unless and until that's proven. And I don't know why there's a suspicion of something being covered up. I would hope that any skater who actually witnessed something egregious would have spoken to the perpetrator and the victim in an effort to get help for them both.

Some of the most horrible abuses occur in families, where it's never reported. Or there's horrible rape and/or bullying which can occur to a minor who never reports it to their parents until sometimes the parents find out 20 to 30 years later. Read the memoir, Hunger by Roxane Gay; read the memoir, Educated by Tara Westover. Read and weep, and then give thanks for your own life's blessings.

Meanwhile, we don't know what the allegations against John Coughlin are. He's dead now, and I personally do not want to see anything swept under a rug. Let it all be revealed, while keeping the accusers' identities anonymous and protected. Let us stop and reflect on all the various human interactions we've experienced in our own lives which might have been uncomfortable and inappropriate, or unfortunate but that did not involve horrific physical abuse or result in someone killing themselves. There's no way that death should have happened.

For the skating community and for all communities, there needs to be education, communication, counseling, mediation, and an opportunity for understanding, reconciliation and rehabilitation. In instances of premeditated, systemic and uncaring horrible abuse, or an egregious pattern of harmful behavior, that needs to be uncovered and dealt with quickly, thoroughly, and harshly. But what was it that happened in this case exactly?

 

[VGThuy]

I'm glad that Hersh explained that it was not that easy to find a name on the SafeSport list. However, does anyone know why a publicly accessible list (as opposed to something password protected or something that only rinks would be able to access) is alwats necessary? I agree that an interim suspension may be needed to protect any one who might be endangered if the accused is allowed to continue. but unless the accused flees, I don't see why the interim suspension of a hypothetical Coach X in Florida should be publicly accessible to Californians.

Because of gymnastics and how often coaches would be quietly dismissed from one gym and then be hired at another in another state without that gym knowing that the other coach was dismissed due to sexual misconduct and then he continued that behavior there. Rinse and repeat. People forget the issues with gymnastics and the creation of SafeSport was way beyond Nassar and involved many other issues of repeat behavior from a great number of coaches/staff for years (decades).

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

@VIETgrlTerifa said. She was faster.

Many professional licenses work this way to prevent state hopping.

 

[mag]

Covering up what though? A systemic pattern of brutish behavior? Something horrible and completely harmful? Or gossip and innuendo without knowledge or actual witnessing anything substantial?

Can we please stop inferring that this investigation was in someway based on gossip or innuendo. It was not. There were three complainants. The original complainant and then two more came forward after John was initially listed a restricted on the Safe Sport web site. The initial complaint was investigated and deemed to worthy of additional investigation prior to listing John on the site. As to a cover up, all coaches are required to report if they witness any sort of misconduct or if they have good reason to believe it is taking place. It is then up to Safe Sport to assess the information and decide if an investigation is warranted. If any coach was aware of or witnessed anything with regard to these complaints and did not report that to Safe Sport there will and should be repercussions for that coach.

Again, none of this is complicated. There is a clear process in place and that process was followed in this case. All coaches are aware of the process and agree to abide by it.

 

[aftershocks]

This is all pretty horrific. It's the death threats that caused him to pull things down. Great job, skating community.

People need to get a grip re making death threats. That's completely uncalled for. But let's be careful about assuming these threats are all or exclusively coming from the skating community, please.

As we know, the story about John Coughlin's death was reported in the terrible tabloid, Daily Mail, published in Great Britain. That tabloid has a worldwide audience. TSL and Dave Lease were prominently mentioned in that article. Although DL refused to be quoted in the article, he provided a link to the article for everyone to check out. Welcome to worldwide notoriety and unwelcome online snark and attacks.

 

[laviemn]

Did anyone think it might be even possible that USFS wanted to avoid a total circus at Nationals and got SafeSport to raise the level, giving a reason to keep him out?

No, this never remotely occurred to me because it seems like a violation of SafeSport's purpose and authority to use sanctions to help USFS avoid difficult situations. Christine Brennan reported that they changed John's status because during the course of investigating the original report, two more reports were made. That is reasonable and ethical. What's not reasonable and ethical is SafeSport allowing USFS to use it as a public relations tool.

The idea that USFS has that kind of influence over SafeSport's decisions is very alarming.

 

[aftershocks]

Can we please stop inferring that this investigation was in someway based on gossip or innuendo.

I'm not referring to the investigation @mag. I'm referring to the assumption that there's necessarily a cover-up of anything. Specifically, I'm saying that in the absence of actually witnessing something specific, what would anyone be covering up if they possibly heard unspecified gossip and innuendo which may or may not be false and malicious.

And just as you say, can we also stop jumping to any conclusions about what the specific allegations are about. I've already said previously that we can't equate these allegations to anything that has been proven to have happened in any other known cases of abuse or sexual misconduct.

 

[skatfan]

Because of gymnastics and how often coaches would be quietly dismissed from one gym and then be hired at another in another state without that gym knowing that the other coach was dismissed due to sexual misconduct and then he continued that behavior there. Rinse and repeat. People forget the issues with gymnastics and the creation of SafeSport was way beyond Nassar and involved many other issues of repeat behavior from a great number of coaches/staff for years (decades).

The Phil Hersh article makes what to me is a newly sourced revelation that it was the public listing of Coughlin's name on the Safesport website that led to the two additional accusers to come forward. I doubt this would have happened if left to just the rink owners quietly reviewing things themselves.

 

[attyfan]

Because of gymnastics and how often coaches would be quietly dismissed from one gym and then be hired at another in another state without that gym knowing that the other coach was dismissed due to sexual misconduct and then he continued that behavior there. Rinse and repeat. People forget the issues with gymnastics and the creation of SafeSport was way beyond Nassar and involved many other issues of repeat behavior from a great number of coaches/staff for years (decades).

Thanks. I wasn't aware of all the background facts.

 

[vesperholly]

This is not a parable from the Bible. It is a story told in different ways in Christian and Jewish traditions.



It isn't a tweet; it is a long series of tweets which explain, in detail, why due process was not violated here. If people still have questions about this, here is link to the Twitter posts and here is Zemgirl's post explaining Courtney Milan's qualifications to speak on this issue.



It is attitudes like this that lead to social media hysteria. People know nothing and assume much and off they go like a pack of hysterical hyenas.



I posted this list in the other thread, but I'll repost it here:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...der-investigation-for-sexual-misconduct-65162
http://www.fox8live.com/2018/12/13/...n-under-investigation-sexually-abusing-teens/
https://www.latimes.com/politics/es...atic-party-chairman-1543170712-htmlstory.html
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...edly-investigation-allegations-sexual-assault
https://www.thisisinsider.com/r-kelly-sexual-abuse-and-child-porn-allegation-2019-1
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/us/dartmouth-professors-sexual-harassment.html

None of these men have been arrested, yet the fact that they are or were being investigated for sexual misconduct is right there for all to see. Some of those men are famous, which might be used to excuse the coverage, but some of them are not. Some of them are being investigated by the police; some of them are being investigated organizationally. None of them have been arrested or indicted.

It took me less a second to find these reports on Google; I didn't even try beyond a single search or go beyond a single page of search results and knew I wouldn't have to because reports like this are common. As I said there, I can see arguing that the names of the accused should be kept confidential, but I don't at all understand why people think that what happened here in terms of reporting is somehow exceptional or pointedly malicious.

I stand corrected.

 

[aftershocks]

Did anyone think it might be even possible that USFS wanted to avoid a total circus at Nationals and got SafeSport to raise the level, giving a reason to keep him out?

'A total circus.' Funny/ not so funny you say that. That's the way it has turned out in any case.

If someone had wanted to keep John Coughlin away from 2019 U.S. Nationals, they could have relayed that desire to him directly or indirectly via intermediary. But I doubt that was anyone's specific desire. Under the circumstances though, I would think Coughlin himself would not have wanted to be there. For all we know, Coughlin may have been becoming more depressed in the lead up to U.S. Nationals, and SafeSport's posting of the change in investigative status could have been the last straw, with the online media speculation the break in the camel's back.

It makes no sense whatsoever for USFS to have interfered in any way with SafeSport's actions.

No, this never remotely occurred to me because it seems like a violation of SafeSport's purpose and authority to use sanctions to help USFS avoid difficult situations. Christine Brennan reported that they changed John's status because during the course of investigating the original report, two more reports were made. That is reasonable and ethical. What's not reasonable and ethical is SafeSport allowing USFS to use it as a public relations tool. The idea that USFS has that kind of influence over SafeSport's decisions is very alarming.

It wouldn't make any sense at all for USFS to interfere in any way, shape or form. I see the ratcheting up of the status so close to U.S. Nationals as highly problematic in the first place. It just placed a huge spotlight on something that should have remained under quiet and thorough investigation, until definite conclusions and resolutions could have been reached. Meanwhile, the accused continued to twist slowly in the wind, enduring heightened shaming and speculation.

 

[mag]

It wouldn't make any sense at all for USFS to interfere in any way, shape or form. I see the ratcheting up of the status so close to U.S. Nationals as highly problematic in the first place. It just placed a huge spotlight on something that should have remained under quiet and thorough investigation, until definite conclusions and resolutions could have been reached. Meanwhile, the accused continued to twist slowly in the wind, enduring heightened shaming and speculation.

I completely agree that the the USFSA would not interfere nor would Safe Sport involve them in the decision to change John’s status. What I don’t agree with are two things:

First, Safe Sport was not “ratcheting up” John’s status. They had TWO MORE COMPLAINTS for heaven sakes. What would you have them do? Suppose for a moment the accused was not John but some coach nobody liked and said coach went on to abuse another child because Safe Sport didn’t follow their own procedures and change his status. You would be screaming blue murder about how Safe Sport should have done their job.

Second, as for “twist(ing) slowly in the wind...” How do you think the complainants were feeling? How emotionally damaging do think it was to them wondering if they were going to run into John at Nationals? Perhaps have him stand behind them in the food line up?

Seriously, it seems like some people here simply cannot get their head around how serious this situation was. Coaches do not get upgraded to an interim suspension because they are accused of some minor violation of protocol that occurred years ago. Yes, in a court of law, and hopefully in the court of public opinion, one should be innocent until proven guilty, but that does not mean the investigating body assumes innocence and does nothing. That is why the word interim is before suspension.

 

[aftershocks]

I completely agree that the the USFSA would not interfere nor would Safe Sport involve them in the decision to change John’s status. What I don’t agree with are two things:

First, Safe Sport was not “ratcheting up” John’s status. They had TWO MORE COMPLAINTS for heaven sakes. What would you have them do? Suppose for a moment the accused was not John but some coach nobody liked and said coach went on to abuse another child because Safe Sport didn’t follow their own procedures and change his status. You would be screaming blue murder about how Safe Sport should have done their job.

Second, as for “twist(ing) slowly in the wind...” How do you think the complainants were feeling? How emotionally damaging do think it was to them wondering if they were going to run into John at Nationals? Perhaps have him stand behind them in the food line up?

Seriously, it seems like some people here simply cannot get their head around how serious this situation was. Coaches do not get upgraded to an interim suspension because they are accused of some minor violation of protocol that occurred years ago. Yes, in a court of law, and hopefully in the court of public opinion, one should be innocent until proven guilty, but that does not mean the investigating body assumes innocence and does nothing. That is why the word interim is before suspension.

We do not know anything that we do not know. Personally, although I wonder what exactly happened, I do not wish to engage in setting up 'what if' scenarios involving the accuser(s) and the accused, such as you have done in your post.

My sympathies and prayers are with the accusers and with the family and friends of John Coughlin. I hope in the aftermath of his death that nothing gets swept under the rug. A full and thorough investigation of what is known needs to happen.

And hopefully other cases of proven abuse and sexual misconduct will stop being compared to a case we don't have any detailed information about.

 

[laviemn]

I see the ratcheting up of the status so close to U.S. Nationals as highly problematic in the first place. It just placed a huge spotlight on something that should have remained under quiet and thorough investigation, until definite conclusions and resolutions could have been reached. Meanwhile, the accused continued to twist slowly in the wind, enduring heightened shaming and speculation.

The part I bolded was the Catholic Church's approach to abuse allegations, though from what I've read, many of those investigations were neither thorough nor in good faith. But they certainly valued the quiet part. Meanwhile thousands of children were abused because their parents had no clue they were trusting men who had already been accused of abuse. SafeSport's policies are intended to prevent this.

 

[Habs]

Suppose for a moment the accused was not John but some coach nobody liked and said coach went on to abuse another child because Safe Sport didn’t follow their own procedures and change his status. You would be screaming blue murder about how Safe Sport should have done their job.

This is my takeaway here. John Coughlin was popular and well-liked. If this was a random coach no one had heard of, or that people didn't like, people would be cheering Safe Sport for doing its job.

The whole situation is terribly sad.

 

[kittysk8ts]

The Phil Hersh article makes what to me is a newly sourced revelation that it was the public listing of Coughlin's name on the Safesport website that led to the two additional accusers to come forward. I doubt this would have happened if left to just the rink owners quietly reviewing things themselves.

I recall thinking that after watching the Christine Brennan vid. Perhaps I am mistaken but I swear they at least inferred the 2 additional complaints came as a result of sharing of the screenshot of the SS notice.

 

[VGThuy]

I recall thinking that after watching the Christine Brennan vid. Perhaps I am mistaken but I swear they at least inferred the 2 additional complaints came as a result of sharing if the screenshot of the SS notice.

If true, then I'm happy TSL and Brennan reported it and makes it even more disgusting that they are being attacked by people who are looking someone to blame for Coughlin's death.

 

[mpleaf4ever]

Because of gymnastics and how often coaches would be quietly dismissed from one gym and then be hired at another in another state without that gym knowing that the other coach was dismissed due to sexual misconduct and then he continued that behavior there. Rinse and repeat. People forget the issues with gymnastics and the creation of SafeSport was way beyond Nassar and involved many other issues of repeat behavior from a great number of coaches/staff for years (decades).

This is not unique to gymnastics. It's happened in skating in the past as well.

 

[kittysk8ts]

If true, then I'm happy TSL and Brennan reported it and makes it even more disgusting that they are being attacked by people who are looking someone to blame for Coughlin's death.

Dear God, I hope I am not wrong. I had better try to find it and confirm. I’ll be back.

 

[AnnM]

I'm glad that Hersh explained that it was not that easy to find a name on the SafeSport list. However, does anyone know why a publicly accessible list (as opposed to something password protected or something that only rinks would be able to access) is alwats necessary? I agree that an interim suspension may be needed to protect any one who might be endangered if the accused is allowed to continue. but unless the accused flees, I don't see why the interim suspension of a hypothetical Coach X in Florida should be publicly accessible to Californians.

What would stop Coach X in Florida from moving to any other location he or she wanted to? Nothing.

How did the Catholic church cover up for its abusers? By moving them amongst parishes or dioceses without notifying the next recipient of the problem priest.

That is why the Californians in your hypothetical should be able to access information about an allegation made out of state.

Anecdote: A coach at one of the rinks I skated at was asked to resign due to sexual harassment of a skater, long before the existence of SafeSport. He started working at a rink 40 miles away within a couple weeks.