Champs Camp 2017 (Aug 19-23)

[crzesk8dad]

FWIW, I have heard from that neither Grant nor Caroline really trains like a serious athlete, with a full schedule of off-ice training, etc. They are both said to be full-time coaches who skate a little on the side, rather than full-time athletes who coach a little on the side.

Dr. Frog...how dare you make such a statement! What nerve!

At $30K to $40K per year to train, as well as eat, sleep, etc. how else would you expect an athlete to meet such expenses and obligations? It's not a matter of coaching over training, it's a matter money or no money. Or how about eat or not eat, live or not live. These athletes don't get much in the way of funding from USFS (but they are happy to get what they do get).

As the father of a skater, one who you must think "full time coaches and skates a little on the side", I found your statement to be insulting to our athletes.

Very judgmental of you, to be sure.

Maybe like our President, you didn't mean to say it that way? Maybe you can rephrase it in a few days? Or maybe you can double down?

 

[Jarrett]

FWIW, I have heard from that neither Grant nor Caroline really trains like a serious athlete, with a full schedule of off-ice training, etc. They are both said to be full-time coaches who skate a little on the side, rather than full-time athletes who coach a little on the side.

LETS BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!!!!!!

 

[crzesk8dad]

Dupe

 

[aftershocks]

Thank You!

^^ Sure. I never heard of anyone training to make the Olympic team, especially with all of the athletic success that Grant and Caroline have achieved, being insulted and dismissed as 'not training like serious athletes,' simply because they have to coach in order to supplement paying for training expenses, rent, groceries, equipment, costumes, travel, medical bills, etc. How would the gossips actually know how much extra training time they may be squeezing in on the ice in off-hours at the rink!?

I feel for, admire and respect all of these very serious-minded athletes who work so hard and give so much of themselves to reach their goals. Blessings to them and to their families who make so many sacrifices.

Is Jason ever not excited for something? I admire his unwavering positive attitude - it's truly amazing. You'd think there'd be something that would make him unhappy, right? (Then again he's so precious I hope we never see him unhappy)

Right, very true. We might miss though and take for granted that Jason is also extremely competitive and dedicated to working hard with a big smile and a caring heart. I admire most his talent, his competitiveness and above all the way he genuinely cares about other people. Even the setbacks, challenges and injuries he's faced, have been met with a positive, uplifting, spirited and never-give-up, never-say-die attitude.

Jason is showing us all some very worthwhile and meaningful life lessons. He's a mensch, and like someone coined after seeing him skate to Riverdance, he's 'a happy elf' with a heart of gold. But he also wields a mighty sword and he knows how to fight to win. The qualities of a champion!

 

[jlai]

I thought the whole argument is whether Zhang (or maybe Grant) should get a gp? In which case they are either in good enough condition to go or not.

The argument is not about whether they are hard working nice people who earn their way to skating, which I am sure they are.

 

[Willin]

I have no problem with them coaching for $$$ (not to mention some rinks give their full time staff coaches free ice time or discounted ice rates - saving training costs). We all know a lot of skaters do this.

I think @dr.frog 's point was that you can still train hard while coaching. Most of the skaters I know who coach and train coach during morning freestyles (if they have students during the freestyles - otherwise they train when they're not coaching), train during the school day, and then go to coach/work at the rink after school. Jeremy Barrett also did rink maintenance and Zamboniing IIRC - but he was athe rink 6am-midnight every day. I think what he's saying is that if you work your butt off and agree to have no life, you can coach/work and train 20+ hours a week like most top competitors, and Grant & Caroline have decided to have a life outside of training/working at the rink. That means they're likely not getting in the same amount of hours in conditioning and ice time that their competitors are. (TBH I would have made the same choice as dr.frog is saying they did)

The thing is, while that choice is entirely respectable and understandable and nothing to insult them about, it is something that may hurt their standing with USFSA. Grant may not be feeling it as much because the men's event is/was less competitive, but you better bet that the powers that be at USFSA take training into account when assigning events. If you're still winning medals and staying competiive while training on your own schedule (Ashley), they probably won't question your training unless things go downhill. OTOH, if you have room to improve and there's lots of skaters at your level or better competing for the same international spots, your training will be under a microscope when assigning those spots.

 

[chapis]

How many days will this camp last?

eta. oops, 19-23 aug

 

[RoseRed]

Olympics are in Beijing next time and she's the energizer bunny, I think she's going to continue. Why not? She only keeps getting better and she's finally healthy. If she keeps improving there's no reason why next seasons GP can't happen. because whoopie, post Olympic GP is so much better

I thought she was retiring after this season? At least, in this interview Grant did he emphasized several times that this is his final season and he also said: "I wanted a piece of music that I could skate to and dedicate to Caroline [Zhang, his fiancee] as we close one chapter of our lives and begin another." Which sounded to me as if they were both retiring, but maybe not.

 

[aftershocks]

The argument is not about whether they are hard working nice people who earn their way to skating, which I am sure they are.

There's no argument about anything really. Just a lotta 'tude and opining amongst some grumpy fans who will never get everything they want, and never be satisfied regardless.

Oh and a blatant and dismissive insult from one poster directed toward Grant and Caroline, which you apparently are choosing to ignore or downplay. But yeah, par for the course in fandom universe.

Hmmm @Willin, you seem to know quite a bit about it. BTW, I haven't heard Grant or Caroline complaining about anything, just some fans in this thread dishing about this and that re GP assignments and inclusion at Champs Camp, along with dissing Grant & Caroline as not being 'serious athletes.' Not to mention elaborate attempts to justify the gossip, assumptions, and the blatant insult (whether it was intentional or not). So much OTT drama. I'm not in the know re the gossip, nor do I think such chatter should be the basis for officials making decisions that impact skaters' careers, even if/when it's their final season.

 

[MacMadame]

I thought she was retiring after this season? At least, in this interview Grant did he emphasized several times that this is his final season and he also said: "I wanted a piece of music that I could skate to and dedicate to Caroline [Zhang, his fiancee] as we close one chapter of our lives and begin another." Which sounded to me as if they were both retiring, but maybe not.

If they are prioritizing coaching over their own skating, then they are probably transitioning from being primarily a skater to being a FT coach. This is not unusual. There are skaters who can do this -- prioritize their coaching but still skate themselves -- and still skate well enough to get to Nationals every year and maybe even get international assignments. Good for them!

 

[mag]

There's no argument about anything really. Just a lotta 'tude and opining amongst some grumpy fans who will never get everything they want, and never be satisfied regardless.

Oh and a blatant and dismissive insult from one poster directed toward Grant and Caroline, which you apparently are choosing to ignore or downplay. But yeah, par for the course in fandom universe.

Hmmm @Willin, you seem to know quite a bit about it. BTW, I haven't heard Grant or Caroline complaining about anything, just some fans in this thread dishing about this and that re GP assignments and inclusion at Champs Camp, along with dissing Grant & Caroline as not being 'serious athletes.' Not to mention attempts to justify the gossip, assumptions, and the blatant insult (whether it was intentional or not). So much OTT drama.

I don't see how anything Dr. Frog stated could be interpreted as an insult or dismissive. Assuming he knows what he is talking about, then he is just stating a fact. If this is the choice Grant and Caroline have made, more power to them. Saying that someone is "not training like a serious athlete" is not an insult if they are in fact not training like a serious athlete, and is certainly not an insult if that is the choice they have made.

Caroline benefited hugely from the USFSA's policy of giving young junior and senior skaters a chance to build an international reputation. I would argue she had way more support than Ashley or Mirai. Unfortunately for Caroline, she had many technical issues (well known to her and her team) that she/they chose not to address. The consequence of that choice played out in her lack of success as a senior. That is just what it is. Choices have consequences.

I am pleased that she has been able to return to skating and is clearly enjoying her journey. I don't think she is owed anything, and in fact, I feel strongly that sentimentality should not weigh into decisions about assignment, especially one as important as SA. SA should go to the skater who has the best record in summer comps and has shown to have a training regimen that will support future success. All skaters and families make heavy sacrifices to skate at an elite level. The only way to be fair is to base decisions on results.

 

[dr.frog]

^^ Grant and Caroline are not independently wealthy and must find a way to pay bills and training expenses. Unfortunately, for many skaters on the margins of the top heap, and those struggling just to make it to the margin of the top heap (including e.g., Pfund/Santillan), they have to work and that usually means coaching, which cuts into their training time, not by personal preference, but by survival necessity. Walk a mile in their skate boots

I understand this perfectly well. During the time when the USFSA had fat TV contracts, very much of that money was going into the pockets of a very few skaters so there was this humungous divide between the skaters who were getting invitations to pro-ams and tour and those who were not. Younger skaters often got little or nothing. I recall Jenny Kirk's mom telling me the year she competed junior(?) that her Memorial Fund stipend would not even cover their hotel bill at Nationals, much less pay any training expenses. It's a huge burden on skaters and their families. I'm less involved with that side of the sport than I used to be, and don't know what the funding situation is like now that there is not even any TV money.

But I wasn't really talking about funding. With men being expected now to do multiple quads and ladies clean triple/triple combinations, skaters have to train really really hard to be successful, including off-ice strength training, and on-ice training with lots of repetitions to build consistency. As a matter of fact I understand from talking with that the time/money demands of elite skating nowadays are a significant problem in the sport that coaches talk about a lot. Kids who want to have a life after skating are dropping out earlier because the parents don't see any point in throwing away so much money on a sport their kid is never going to be competitive at unless they have no other life at all, quit school, etc.

OTOH, some skaters seem to be OK with hanging around for years at the fringes of the sport, training in a half-assed way and never quite breaking into the top level. But if they can't or won't put in full effort, they can't really expect favors from USFS, because USFS knows that it takes full effort to be successful nowadays. It's tough luck, but that's the way it is. Shrug.

 

[Marco]

If Grant and Caroline do not train as hard as other skaters do and still end up top 5 at Nationals at their disciplines, then they still deserve the funding and opportunities they get.

The bigger question is what if they had trained harder, but this is really the sort of sacrifice they would have to make and accept to keep competing at this expensive sport.

 

[dr.frog]

Oh and a blatant and dismissive insult from one poster directed toward Grant and Caroline, which you apparently are choosing to ignore or downplay. But yeah, par for the course in fandom universe.

My comment wasn't intended to be an insult, just an observation of fact. My is 100% reliable; a coach who spent some time in Artesia earlier in the summer and who has known Grant for eons. FWIW, I do like Grant's skating a lot, but I'm realistic enough to recognize that if he's not putting in the same work as his competitors, he's not going to get the results no matter how talented he might be. Caroline was never my favorite but I appreciate that she may have a personal goal in returning to competition even if she never gets another international.

 

[Willin]

I mean, if skaters want to stick around for fun and because they love to skate/compete and don't want to go full out $$$/time-wise in training, that's one thing. I think it's a perfectly fine thing to do as long as you're willing and able. Having hobbies is a great thing.
BUT, if skaters want to be getting those GP/Senior B assignments and national/international medals, they should expect to go full out. I think this is what some people on this board think Caroline/Grant want. (Maybe because they want Caroline to get those spots?)
Honestly, we'll never know for sure, but based on their quotes from last season and this summer, it sounds like they are doing the former - skating because they love to do it, not because they feel they deserve or even want international spots. At this point in their lives, they should be allowed to skate and train how they want to, and I'm sure they know how little or how much they want to train and what that means for their ability to compete nationally and internationally.

Hmmm @Willin, you seem to know quite a bit about it. BTW, I haven't heard Grant or Caroline complaining about anything, just some fans in this thread dishing about this and that re GP assignments and inclusion at Champs Camp, along with dissing Grant & Caroline as not being 'serious athletes.' Not to mention elaborate attempts to justify the gossip, assumptions, and the blatant insult (whether it was intentional or not). So much OTT drama. I'm not in the know re the gossip, nor do I think such chatter should be the basis for officials making decisions that impact skaters' careers, even if/when it's their final season.

As this and my previous post alluded to, I think they're living their best life and that the only people complaining about their choice not leading to GP/Senior B assignments are people on forums online.

As for "dissing" them for "not being serious athletes," no one was dissing them or attempting to justify a diss (because there wasn't one - even if dr.frog's phrasing was poor). Just pointing out that they're in a training pattern more similar to athletes winding down their careers or focusing on other aspects of their lives - which is totally fine. It's not an insult to point out a fact that is decently well known among those in the skating community.

The chatter isn't the basis - well, our chatter isn't the basis. Rather, it's the chatter of the scouts USFSA sends out to check on top skaters training and self-reporting from skaters and coaches. USFSA wants to send the best, most prepared team to each competition, so they need to know who will be prepared. It's not like they're left in the dark, either. USFSA tells all top skaters what they can do to improve - whether it be training more, changing a program, etc. A lot of top skaters are even asked to enter competitions or a top USFSA judge is sent out to observe them and then feedback is given to the skater and coach. (But some skaters are watched a lot more closely than others) Top athletes and coaches will also generally be able to tell USFSA what their plan is, and even if they don't, USFSA will find out through their , so I'm sure they're aware of what's going on and why.
This means that if they want to be in top shape, USFSA will spend more time and money monitoring them and giving them advice. If they are just skating for their love of the sport, USFSA will watch to see if they want to send them out, but probably won't be harsh or pushing them to do more than they want to. For instance - in synchro, teams that almost certainly won't be given an international competition in Jr/Sr are asked to go to one "monitoring" competition to get USFSA feedback, but the top teams in the two international competing divisions are required to go to at least one "monitoring" competition before they compete internationally (preferably two or three over the season) and get USFSA representatives sent out to them every so often (and sometimes at their request).

 

[aftershocks]

^^ It was very bad wording to tag Caroline and Grant as 'not serious athletes.' As I said, they are not complaining, and whatever 'pattern' they may be in is their business. No matter what stage of their career they are in doesn't give you or @dr.frog the right to be so dismissive and judgmental about what their personal goals are, and how they are approaching their training.

OTOH, some skaters seem to be OK with hanging around for years at the fringes of the sport, training in a half-assed way and never quite breaking into the top level. But if they can't or won't put in full effort, they can't really expect favors from USFS, because USFS knows that it takes full effort to be successful nowadays. It's tough luck, but that's the way it is. Shrug.

Thanks for the explanation and clarification in your first two paragraphs. I still think you are being rather judgmental, dismissive, overly harsh and way off-base with the rest of your comments and assumptions, particularly the bolded part!

You seem to have no understanding whatsoever of how hard these athletes work and what they go through for precious little rewards due to the antiquated competitive structure of this sport and the serious lack of vision and leadership among the ISU and federations. I think the athletes understand a whole heck of a lot better than you exactly what 'tough luck' is and how it feels to give your all in the face of setbacks, injuries and few opportunities to compete or move up. Not to mention lowball scores when you do get assigned to events because it's a slow process trying to build rep. The struggle involved is not due to a lack of talent and hard work, but due to a lack of sufficient opportunities to develop. Many skaters don't have enough funding to be able to train the number of hours they are fully willing and eager to train in order to improve.

The precociously talented Rohene Ward faced exactly that dilemma. And yet he was largely blamed for not being adequately trained, which can cause competitive hiccoughs, nerves and resultant lack of confidence. Fortunately for him and for the sport, he's found a way to continue participating and contributing his talents as an amazing choreographer. Pfund/Santillan are facing a similar lack of funding dilemma, along with injury setbacks. Few skaters have wealthy parents and none possess endless funding from their federations and deep-pocketed sponsors. Another problem is the lack of competitive professional opportunities for veterans, who have few options to remain in skating once they retire from eligible competition.

You really do have a nerve suggesting that any skater is okay with 'hanging around for years at the fringes of the sport, training in a half-assed way.' Lots of people are being rather half-assed in this thread, but that behavior does not describe most figure skaters, much less is the term even part of their vocabularies. Grant would never have made it to a World championships nor mastered quads if he was just hanging around 'half-assing' it. Skaters don't even get to touch the fringe of this sport without talent, hard work, and an understanding of how tough it is to make it. You already said yourself how much more difficult the sport has become in terms of training requirements, which has led to many younger athletes leaving the sport at the lower levels. Still, you seem clueless in connecting the dots.

Skaters like Sean Rabbitt are not content to just 'hang around.' Sean has worked tremendously hard and he's left no stone unturned in pursuit of his dream. He participated in Young Artists Showcase in order to diversify his talents, and his hard work has paid off with many improvements in his skating which has garnered him praise and results. The sport needs to do more to reward and to provide opportunities for skaters like Sean. It's a shame that the sport loses skaters like Armin Mahbahnoozadeh, and so many more who leave because there's no room at the top. And there are those like Philip Warren and Keegan Messing who, if they have ties to another country via their parents, switch citizenship in order to continue pursuing their dream because the depth in single men in the U.S. is too deep to break through, even for the most talented. It's largely a matter of luck and timing, in addition to hard work. And it can all disappear or be stalled by injury.

Adam Rippon famously said in 2015, "I wasn't ready to be phased out." And he persevered by strength of will, desire and commitment. Ashley Wagner would have been done post-2010 had she not pulled her own self up by her bootstraps and made some hard decisions that ended up paying off with John Nicks agreeing to coach her. Ashley had to work jobs outside of skating to fund her training with Nicks, and she moved across the country to work with him. She decided that her career was not over yet, no matter what. That's the kind of grit and desire it takes. And it still was not a piece-of-cake or a slam dunk for her. She doesn't get enough credit for what she has accomplished, particularly not from fair weather, snarky fans. And often not from fed officials and ISU judges either.

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Please stop with the dissing, the ill-conceived soundbites, harsh judgments, and faulty conclusions.

 

[mag]

You really do have a nerve suggesting that any skater is okay with 'hanging around for years at the fringes of the sport, training in a half-assed way.' Lots of people are being rather half-assed in this thread, but that behavior does not describe most figure skaters, much less is the term even part of their vocabularies.

I have been a skating parent for many years and I can absolutely assure you that there are lots of skaters doing exactly this. As you say, not most, but still many. There are also lots of skaters working there butts off, and lots of skaters somewhere in between. Figure skaters start at a very young age. Many are put in skating because that is what their parents choose, not because they choose it themselves. This is not to say they don't often grow to love it, just saying that for many it is a lifestyle choice made by parents when the the child is too young to disagree. When you spend from toddlerhood to your mid teens in a rink, sometimes it becomes difficult to move on. This applies to skaters who are only regional level, right through to international level. The rink is home and is safe and comfortable. Moving on can be difficult. Many skaters, even ones who never make it out of regionals, make huge educational sacrifices that limit their options and can make post secondary extremely difficult. They also often don't have the life skills needed to forge ahead and build a new life. Skating can teach hard work, independence, confidence, and problem solving if parents and coaches allow it; however that doesn't always happen and skaters end their journey with limited social skills, limited education, and a heavy reliance on the organizational skills of their parent or coach.

Okay, sorry for the drift. Back to Champs Camp.

 

[dr.frog]

FWIW, when I talked about training in a "half-assed kind of way", I was quoting Toller Cranston in some ancient TV interview, talking about his own early career, before he started working with Ellen Burka. In those days Toller was an art student and skating was just something he did on the side.... and he was going nowhere because his physical conditioning was so poor. A few years later and he was considered a marvel for having a body that would do anything he wanted it to do.

Folks who don't like my language are free to ignore it, but in this case, it wasn't even my language.

 

[aftershocks]

FWIW, when I talked about training in a "half-assed kind of way", I was quoting Toller Cranston in some ancient TV interview... Folks who don't like my language are free to ignore it, but in this case, it wasn't even my language.

^^ You are like on a Mission Impossible trying every which way but loose to disavow any responsibility for your ill-conceived characterizations!

I don't see how anything Dr. Frog stated could be interpreted as an insult or dismissive... I feel strongly that sentimentality should not weigh into decisions about assignment...

Good for you. Others of us happen to view dr.frog's remarks differently than you. Again, par for the course in fandom universe.

As far as fans' varying opinions and desires surrounding GP assignments, I'm not addressing that, nor do I have any preferences regarding who does or does not get an assignment. What will be will be. And I doubt 'sentimentality' will have anything whatsoever do with USFS' decisions! So you may as well set that worry aside.

... Many are put in skating because that is what their parents choose, not because they choose it themselves ... Moving on can be difficult. Many skaters ... often don't have the life skills needed to forge ahead and build a new life.

What you bring up is worthy of discussion @mag, and you have interesting perspectives and insights. However, your comments are farther afield from the topic of dedicated senior skaters pursuing their dreams against the odds, and eventually hitting a wall re competitive options at the same time they are at the nadir of their careers (and then being illogically dissed in this thread for supposedly not training hard). Caroline would never have made it back to where she is post-surgery if she was not putting in hard work. Grant would never be competing quads if he was not a serious athlete who dedicates himself to training. Whether or not this is their last season (and apparently it is, at least for Grant and maybe for Caroline too), is no grounds for posters insulting their work ethic and career results.

IOW, what you have shared does not pertain to Caroline and Grant. Nor are you specifically addressing senior skaters at the fringes of the top ranks who have a tough time making it out of U.S. Nationals. Without desire and commitment, skaters don't even make it that far, especially not in the senior ranks. Furthermore, skaters can not improve if they don't have opportunities to compete. And it's hard to get opportunities to compete, if you don't have enough funds to train sufficiently.

When I referenced 'any skater,' not being okay with just 'hanging around,' I certainly was not talking about young skaters who are pushed into the sport by their parents. Let's be clear please on exactly what is being discussed here. There are too many skaters who do love the sport and who try hard to succeed and do not have enough funding or opportunities, for you to digress into bringing up a related but tangential topic about younger skaters who are being pushed by their parents. Those parents should immediately stop pushing their unmotivated kids and donate the money they are wasting to hardworking skaters in desperate need of funding! Have you discussed with your local rink ways of addressing the concern about unmotivated skaters 'hanging around' the sport, and lacking the comfort level and life skills to forge ahead?

The difficult issues that face figure skaters who 'hang around' for various reasons, as well as the serious concerns facing skaters at the fringes of the top ranks are certainly worthy of detailed discussion and reflection. But there's no need to make the segue from one topic to another in this thread because I challenged dr.frog's faulty characterization of Caroline and Grant. It was bad enough when the thread initially went off-topic with the dismissive 'gossip' brought up about Caroline and Grant.

 

[dr.frog]

^^ It was very bad wording to tag Caroline and Grant as 'not serious athletes.' As I said, they are not complaining, and whatever 'pattern' they may be in is their business. No matter what stage of their career they are in doesn't give you or @dr.frog the right to be so dismissive and judgmental about what their personal goals are, and how they are approaching their training.

Well, two things.

(1) Of course it's not our business as fans to be critical of what skaters are doing with their time. But it's definitely USFS's business, because it's explicitly their mission to develop and select athletes who can win medals in international competitions, not to send out folks who are only there to participate for personal satisfaction.

(2) Do you think any skater who does NO off-ice training whatsoever can be considered a serious and internationally competitive athlete, given the current technical demands of the sport?

 

[aftershocks]

Well, two things...

Only two?

(1) Of course it's not our business as fans to be critical of what skaters are doing with their time. But it's definitely USFS's business, because it's explicitly their mission to develop and select athletes who can win medals in international competitions, not to send out folks who are only there to participate for personal satisfaction.

Then why don't you let USFS worry about what you feel is their business. Good grief! Now you are suggesting that competing for personal satisfaction is some kind of disqualification! You are really digging yourself into a black hole. What's the point of harshly judging skaters' personal motivations and emotions surrounding their training regimens and career goals? And how are you able to determine who is or is not participating purely for personal satisfaction?! Surely everyone who competes derives some measure of personal satisfaction no matter their overall goals or results.

I am not questioning that you are aware of gossipy claims regarding Grant and Caroline making personal decisions surrounding how much time they spend training vs coaching. That's their business. What I question and disagree with is your characterization of Grant and Caroline as not being "serious athletes," and that they are "hanging around the sport training in a half-assed way."

(2) Do you think any skater who does NO off-ice training whatsoever can be considered a serious and internationally competitive athlete, given the current technical demands of the sport?

How do you know what Caroline and Grant are doing either on or off the ice in terms of training? You brought this up in direct relation to Caroline and Grant, so you may as well stop trying to change the subject through obfuscation and dissembling. Own up to your own words. Toller Cranston certainly bears no responsibility for your remarks or your perceptions.

 

[Karpenko]

FWIW, when I talked about training in a "half-assed kind of way", I was quoting Toller Cranston in some ancient TV interview, talking about his own early career, before he started working with Ellen Burka. In those days Toller was an art student and skating was just something he did on the side.... and he was going nowhere because his physical conditioning was so poor. A few years later and he was considered a marvel for having a body that would do anything he wanted it to do.

Folks who don't like my language are free to ignore it, but in this case, it wasn't even my language.

Does your source know, or do Grant or Caroline know for that matter, that you're posting their business ( that you've heard from a source)on a public messageboard for the entire skating world to see? whether or not you're the one who said it, you're still responsible for sharing it, therefore you're going to get some sh!t from people for saying they don't train like serious athletes. It seems a rather petty way to add fuel to the fire IMO.

My entire point was that Caroline was fifth at Nationals, she deserves some international competitions. That's the way it's supposed to work, regardless of how old a skater is/the future/etc. I'd like to see her compete abroad and gain some ISU ranking points before US Nationals this year. Her international competition last season where she finished 2nd to Loena was ONE competition - that's all that she's gotten out of it! One very D-list competition that barely anybody competed in.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Any new links to share? I don't have Instagram or any other of those new fangled social media thingys.

 

[Sylvia]

https://www.instagram.com/icenetwork/?hl=en

A sampling:

And I just love love love his [Grant's] interactions with Jason at Champs Camp, both this and the previous ones. From the sotto voce deadpan "*He's* really excited" to

Grant is not happy about having lost to Jason's lucky frog

they're my fav duo.

Caption reads: @jasonbskates still carries the good luck frog he got for a 2010 competition, where he defeated @Grant_Hochstein for the first time.
ETA: The competition in question was Midwestern Sectionals in November 2010:
1 Jason Brown, Skokie Valley SC 1 63.36 1 134.62 197.98
2 Grant Hochstein, St. Clair Shores FSC 3 60.70 2 130.52 191.22

Thumbs up for Max

Nathan and Vincent

Marissa (who celebrated her birthday there) with Mervin and Ashley

More questions by fans answered by skaters:

Rachel and Michael Parsons on the best and worst thing about skating together as siblings on the ice: https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/899377357588267009/video/1

Hubbell & Donohue: https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/899345278804705281/video/1

Mariah Bell: https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/899322548336316416/video/1

ETA:

Photo from Jason's Instagram: Carpool karaoke with Jason & Gracie

Another photo: Carpool karaoke with Chock, Bates, Pogrebinsky & Benoit

 

[giselle23]

Grant and Caroline are doing pretty well for skaters who don't train seriously--Caroline, especially, after serious hip surgery.

ETA: And the USFS doesn't have a very good record when it comes to promoting
"future" skaters. I think they should just butt out and let the competition results determine who advances and who doesn't.

 

[Sylvia]

BTW, though it's not yet been made public, both Grant and Caroline have received their respective ISU Challenger assignments (edited to clarify: each has one that I know of).

 

[dr.frog]

Geez. I brought up the stuff about Caroline being more of a full-time coach than a full-time athlete nowadays because people were questioning why she hadn't gotten a GP assignment or invitation to Champs Camp, and suggesting that she wuzrobbed by USFS. USFS has a perfect right to pick the skaters for international assignments that they think will be trained and prepared, and they may know something that fans don't.

I had this conversation with my coach friend a couple months ago and may be misremembering the details, but I'm pretty sure talked to Grant directly about where his/Caroline's focus is nowadays (as well as seeing/hearing about it from other coaches there). never tells me anything that isn't public knowledge at the rink or that I wouldn't have been able to observe for myself if I'd been there, never says catty things about other coaches or their students, never passes on personal gossip, etc.

 

[her grace]

My entire point was that Caroline was fifth at Nationals, she deserves some international competitions. That's the way it's supposed to work, regardless of how old a skater is/the future/etc. I'd like to see her compete abroad and gain some ISU ranking points before US Nationals this year. Her international competition last season where she finished 2nd to Loena was ONE competition - that's all that she's gotten out of it! One very D-list competition that barely anybody competed in.

I think Zhang was hard done by USFS last season. Her summer and early fall results showed that she deserved an international assignment. If she had been sent to a Challenger, she would've gotten on the Season Best list, and then she could have been selected for this year's GP by a foreign federation. Her 5th place finish at Nationals wasn't a surprise--she had been skating well all season long. But of course, without being on the SB list, her only hope for this season's GP was SA. Personally, I think Tennell and Hicks are both more deserving than Zhang for the SA TBD. Tennell because she has the best summer results, and Hicks as second-best in summer monitoring and a medal winner on the GP last season.

I am glad that Zhang gets to do the Challenger series this season and hope she gets more than one assignment!

I also think USFS should announce their SA TBDs and be done with it. If they know who they're choosing, and it sure looks like they do, then make it public.

 

[BittyBug]

But it's definitely USFS's business, because it's explicitly their mission to develop and select athletes who can win medals in international competitions, not to send out folks who are only there to participate for personal satisfaction.

As a point of interest, U.S. Figure Skating's mission does not explicitly include developing and selecting athletes for international competition. That task is certainly consistent with their mission overall, but their mission is:

Mission: As the national governing body, the mission of the United States Figure Skating Association is to provide programs to encourage participation and achievement in the sport of figure skating on ice, and particularly:

A. To serve as the national governing body in the sport of figure skating on ice as recognized by the United States Olympic Committee (USOC), and to serve as the United States member of the International Skating Union (ISU);

B. To take all steps necessary to regulate and govern figure skating on ice throughout the United States, including the raising of funds to support activities of U.S. Figure Skating by dues, the sale of publications, the conduct of competitions, carnival assessments, sanction fees and any other lawful means, provided that none of the income of U.S. Figure Skating inures to the private profit of any of its members;

C. To define and maintain uniform standards of skating proficiency;

D. To prescribe rules for the holding of and eligibility for tests, competitions, exhibitions, carnivals and all other figure skating activities. To qualify and appoint judges, referees and other officials for all tests, competitions and other figure skating events;

E. To encourage, guide and assist in the organization of local ice skating clubs, and the attaining of full participation in figure skating by individuals, groups, clubs, schools, colleges and universities throughout the United States;

F. To organize and sponsor competitions and exhibitions for the purpose of stimulating interest in figure skating on the part of all persons. To assist financially or otherwise, in accordance with the rules of U.S. Figure Skating, the participants traveling to and from and attending such competitions and exhibitions, who would otherwise be unable to participate therein;

G. To encourage those persons who have demonstrated an ongoing interest in figure skating to continue their participation in figure skating, and where possible, to obtain a college or university education;

H. To provide an equal opportunity to eligible athletes, coaches, trainers, managers, administrators and officials to participate in eligible athletic competition without discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, or any other status protected by federal, state or local law, where applicable. To provide fair notice and an opportunity for a hearing to any eligible athlete, coach, trainer, manager, administrator or official before declaring such individual ineligible to participate;

I. To select members of the Board of Directors and athlete representatives without discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, or any other status protected by federal, state or local law, where applicable;

J. To submit to binding arbitration conducted in accordance with the commercial arbitration rules of the American Arbitration Association in any controversy involving its recognition as a national governing body, as provided for in chapter 2205 and successor sections of the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, 36 U.S.C. § 220501 et. seq., or involving the opportunity of any athlete, coach, trainer, manager, administrator or official to participate in athletic competition, as provided for in the bylaws of the USOC;

K. To support, by contributions from U.S. Figure Skating and its Memorial Fund, other charitable and educational organizations which are themselves exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as from time to time amended; and

L. To ensure that the foregoing objectives are within the meaning of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as from time to time amended, and that the activities of U.S. Figure Skating, both direct and indirect, exclusively further these objectives.

http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=83967

My entire point was that Caroline was fifth at Nationals, she deserves some international competitions. That's the way it's supposed to work, regardless of how old a skater is/the future/etc.

Again, there is nothing in U.S. Figure Skating's mission or rules that suggests "that's the way it's supposed to work." I can understand why that might seem fair to you, but I can also understand why the organization might base their decisions on factors other than placement at Nationals.

 

[Karpenko]

Now that I know Caroline does have some assignments coming up, the wrath has settled. I wish everyone to skate well and have an enjoyable experience (SkAm TBA, etc.), but especially Caroline. she's finally going to be competing internationally in the Olympic season. wherever that location ends up being, everybody loves nice surprises.