Caryn Kadavy at the 1988 Olympic Games

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Caryn Kadavy was the third - ranked lady on Team USA at the 1988 Olympic Games behind Debi Thomas and Jill Trenary.

In 1987, she was also won bronze at the National Championships, before taking a surprise medal at that year's World Championships.

I have often wondered, if she hadn't become sick with flu and withdrawn, how would Kadavy have placed in Calgary? Prior to the free skate, she was seventh in figures and fifth in the short, with a combined standing of sixth place.

 

[berthesghost]

She was completely robbed in the SP which IMO tells the tale. She was never capable of giving a clean LP and considering that even without her, Witt was held up (yet again!), Liz was a home court fav and even despite out skating Witt still lost, debi was held up to medal, and midori was basically told to wait her turn until figures were gone, I don't see caryn moving up much from 6th.

ETA: plus she was coached by mr "I cheat to win and everybody loves me for it" himself and still finished two spots below her teammate in figures. Were Jill's figures really that much better? Or was she the recent nat champ and future world champ to whom's wagon he'd hitched his star?

 

[bardtoob]

I'm a conspiracy theorist. I think Fassi would use skaters from his stable, by pulling them or having them water down content, to influence results. Kadavy was sacrificed to help Trenary

 

[LarrySK8]

IIRC - it was the judges intention to place Kadavy 3rd in the compulsories (she was 3rd after the 1st counter figure) but she collapsed in the second figure with wobbly forward edges after her turns and blew the loop figure (the 3rd figure) while Trenary nailed the loop figure. Kadavy was 7th after all 3 figures, showing how badly she did the last 2 figures.

Her SP is a masterpiece by Ellen Burka - took one session with Kadavy to "throw it together" - and has all the transitions and features and jump difficulty anyone could want. She was great in the SP. I would have had her second to Ito, with Thomas 3rd, Trenary 4th, Witt 5th and Manley 6th in the SP - but that's just me. Team USA was very strong and hoped for 2 medals in that event.

Had she made 4 triples in the LP - Kadavy could have placed 2nd to Manley in the LP with Ito 3rd, Witt 4th, Trenary 5th and Thomas 6th - the standings would have changed greatly (all things the same).

 

[barbk]

I watched many evening practices at the Broadmoor, and Kadavy in practice was a remarkable free skater. She always seemed tighter in competition. (Never saw patch practice, and wouldn't have been able to assess it anyway.)

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I watched many evening practices at the Broadmoor, and Kadavy in practice was a remarkable free skater. She always seemed tighter in competition. (Never saw patch practice, and wouldn't have been able to assess it anyway.)

What an exciting memory. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Erin]

I agree with the assessment that the judging in the SP combined with Kadavy's history of inconsistency in the free program meant she wouldn't be a factor. The judging overall in that SP drives me crazy - the reputation judging that kept Kadavy and Ito from the top two spots in the SP was ridiculous. With Thomas ending up as the ultimate bronze medal winner, I'm not even sure a win in the free program could catch her. And I don't know that Kadavy could have beat the performance that Manley put down.

 

[Vash01]

I loved Caryn Kadavy's skating. She was an inconsistent jumper and it hurt her placements. Still, had she not been sick at the 88 Olympics, she could have had a top 5 finish. Jill had a meltdown, sort of, doubling many of her jumps in the LP. I was happy for Caryn when she had a successful pro career. She skated more freely and her artistry was rewarded.

 

[VGThuy]

Watching back, Ito and Kadavy were by far the most talented skaters of that Olympic cycle in terms of free skating. It's so clear in retrospect.

 

[skatesindreams]

The judging overall in that SP drives me crazy - the reputation judging that kept Kadavy and Ito from the top two spots in the SP was ridiculous.

Agreed.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Watching back, Ito and Kadavy were by far the most talented skaters of that Olympic cycle in terms of free skating. It's so clear in retrospect.

I agree with you on Ito. She was a quantum leap ahead of her competitors in a way I've simply never seen before or since, until Nathan Chen. Her 1988 Olympic free skate had technical content that would've stood up 20 years later, and her 1989 Worlds free skate would still be highly competitive today, 30 years later. (It took until 2018 and Mirai Nagasu for anyone to land more triples than she did then!)

On Kadavy (whom I love), it's less clear. She had a very nice triple loop, yes, and a triple loop-double loop combination. Manley had four different triples, including lutz, and sometimes did sequences ending with triple toe. Thomas had a triple toe-triple toe, which was still rare, and (sometimes) a triple loop. Trenary had a triple flip, and the triple flip-double loop combination she did would give a lot of skaters fits even today. Plus, the one foot axel-triple salchow is much harder than stupid COP gives credit for. By the end of her career, Witt was looking weak technically, but she did not give away a quality point on anything: strong, high triples with speed and in and out.

For me, there was Ito clear in front, and then the rest were a toss-up.

ETA: I would've had Kadavy first in that short program, but I think third behind Thomas and Ito would have been reasonable, too. Manley was a clear sixth to me, and I'll never understand her placement.

 

[Erin]

I agree that Kadavy didn't really have anything on her peers technically, but artistically I would take her in a heartbeat over Witt, Thomas, Manley, or Trenary.

 

[VGThuy]

Exactly. If Ito was a brilliant technical skater who was way ahead of her time (understatement) with underrated artistry for that time, then Kadavy was hands-down the most artistic with the best attention to choreography, actual skating technique, posture, line, and musical sense with comparable jumps to be competitive with the top.

 

[Simone411]

I agree that Kadavy didn't really have anything on her peers technically, but artistically I would take her in a heartbeat over Witt, Thomas, Manley, or Trenary.

I think I would have, too. I loved her quality of skating, and she kept up that quality of skating when she competed professionally. Adding a few videos of Caryn competing professionally.

1996 Ladies Pro Skating - Caryn skated to One More Try.

1996 Ladies Pro Skating - Caryn skated to Tosca.

1995 Riders Ladies Championships - Caryn skated to Rachmaninov.

1999 Improv-Ice - Caryn skated to Muzica.

1998 Great Skate Debate - Caryn skated to Climb Every Mountain, a tribute to Laurie Beechman who passed away from Ovarian Cancer. <3

 

[meggonzo]

I agree with you on Ito. She was a quantum leap ahead of her competitors in a way I've simply never seen before or since, until Nathan Chen. Her 1988 Olympic free skate had technical content that would've stood up 20 years later, and her 1989 Worlds free skate would still be highly competitive today, 30 years later. (It took until 2018 and Mirai Nagasu for anyone to land more triples than she did then!)

Mao Asada did 8 triples at 2014 Olympics, maybe before as well?

 

[bardtoob]

Mao Asada did 8 triples at 2014 Olympics, maybe before as well?

I don't think Mao did 3S.

 

[meggonzo]

I don't think Mao did 3S.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[Seerek]

I'm a conspiracy theorist. I think Fassi would use skaters from his stable, by pulling them or having them water down content, to influence results. Kadavy was sacrificed to help Trenary

In the Skating Lesson interview, Caryn Kadavy herself brought up "theories" as to why she was not encouraged by the Fassis to add to her technical content, as if it was "forbidden" to replicate what Jill Ternary could do.

 

[gk_891]

Manley was a clear sixth to me, and I'll never understand her placement.

The Olympics that year were in Canada. That probably explains it right there. Home skaters will always get a slight boost.

 

[bardtoob]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Interesting. Thank you!

@meggonzo it also reminds me how underscored Mao's LP was in comparison to Sotnikova's LP. I don't dispute that Sotnikova should have been on the podium, but to outscore Mao by that much despite Sotnikova's 6 point deficit in base value is ridiculous. This is the most blatant example of how the ridiculous scoring in Sochi and the pride of the ISU resulted in the ISU F---ING UP their own scoring system.

 

[bardtoob]

In the Skating Lesson interview, Caryn Kadavy herself brought up "theories" as to why she was not encouraged by the Fassis to add to her technical content, as if it was "forbidden" to replicate what Jill Ternary could do.

Thanks! I am going to listen to that!

 

[snowbird]

I read a Liz Manley book a while back and recall her not having kind words for Kadavy's husband, the team physician or for Caryn's shrink.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Mao Asada did 8 triples at 2014 Olympics, maybe before as well?

I don't think she ever did eight triples with no underrotations called, did she? She had two underrotations at those Olympics (though it was a brilliant skate).

 

[WillyElliot]

I read a Liz Manley book a while back and recall her not having kind words for Kadavy's husband, the team physician or for Caryn's shrink.

Liz Manley is such a headcase. Remember her in 2002 acting like a victim of judging and demanding that SHE get an Olympic gold medal? Nutso. I never read her book because the reviews were terrible and all she did was come up with one conspiracy theory or perceived slight after another. I know putting your thoughts on paper can be a good catharsis, but usually you write it down and then burn it in the fireplace or throw it out. She is always whining and feeling like a victim. It gets old. Heck, it's been old for over twenty years.

Caryn was a competitive basketcase. She would have bombed in her LP like she did a few weeks later at Worlds. A totally unreliable competitor. I felt badly for Carlo that his top two ladies were disasters. No mental strength whatsoever. I know she was sick, but it was the OLYMPICS for heaven's sake. Just go out there and freestyle in the middle of the ice for four minutes if you are too weak or feverish to skate. Just SIT there on the ice if you have to. How weak to withdraw. She was so weak.

 

[berthesghost]

If you think fassi's ladies bombed in Calgary, you'll love lake placid where he had like half the field and one by one former world and euro medalists just crapped the bed at the Olys. Which isn't really surprising as he's like the Donald Trump of skating: basically lends his name to other people's skaters just to give them that added cashe with the the judges/investors.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Liz Manley is such a headcase. Remember her in 2002 acting like a victim of judging and demanding that SHE get an Olympic gold medal? Nutso. I never read her book because the reviews were terrible and all she did was come up with one conspiracy theory or perceived slight after another. I know putting your thoughts on paper can be a good catharsis, but usually you write it down and then burn it in the fireplace or throw it out. She is always whining and feeling like a victim. It gets old. Heck, it's been old for over twenty years.

Caryn was a competitive basketcase. She would have bombed in her LP like she did a few weeks later at Worlds. A totally unreliable competitor. I felt badly for Carlo that his top two ladies were disasters. No mental strength whatsoever. I know she was sick, but it was the OLYMPICS for heaven's sake. Just go out there and freestyle in the middle of the ice for four minutes if you are too weak or feverish to skate. Just SIT there on the ice if you have to. How weak to withdraw. She was so weak.

Tell me how you really feel. Sheesh.

 

[Cleo1782]

Not sure if this is true or just a weird skating urban legend, but I heard the Fassis were not happy with Caryn for withdrawing and wanted her to skate.

 

[bardtoob]

I'm a conspiracy theorist. I think Fassi would use skaters from his stable, by pulling them or having them water down content, to influence results. Kadavy was sacrificed to help Trenary

In the Skating Lesson interview, Caryn Kadavy herself brought up "theories" as to why she was not encouraged by the Fassis to add to her technical content, as if it was "forbidden" to replicate what Jill Ternary could do.

Thanks! I am going to listen to that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIsGOt5MTEM&feature=youtu.be&t=1282

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Not sure if this is true or just a weird skating urban legend, but I heard the Fassis were not happy with Caryn for withdrawing and wanted her to skate.

I hope that isn't true. Skating with a high temperature is a disorienting, and potential, health risk.

In assessing whether to compete or not, I would prefer to think in the long term than in the short term.

Jill looked quite ill and lethargic when she skated her free, however.