Canadian team selections: Four Continents, Worlds, Junior Worlds

fsfann

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Beyond Messing, all of the Canadian men have the same floor (do not qualify). Sadovsky has the highest ceiling and is the only one capable of a top 10 finish, which I guess is the argument to keep him under consideration. I’d argue he could potentially place as high as 6th with two perfect programs. Messing and Sadovsky, in a perfect world where everything goes right for them and goes wrong for others, are the only combination that could potentially qualify three spots. That said, the odds of either of those things are minuscule, and the odds of both together are probably in the < 1% chance range. These fantasy best case scenarios are not worth bumping other guys who finished higher and who have similar expected outcomes.

Sadovsky needs to come back next season with a clear message to show consistency and control, v. rare moments of greatness.
I wouldn't even worry about trying to qualify 3 men. We don't have 3 men that should be at Worlds lol... This nationals proved that.. ;)
 

Private Citizen

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I wouldn't even worry about trying to qualify 3 men. We don't have 3 men that should be at Worlds lol... This nationals proved that.. ;)

I agree, but things can change quickly. Sadovsky, Chiu, and Gogolev all have the ingredients to be top 10 or even top 5 in the world. Whether they’ll ever realize their potential is a different question, but the situation in 2024 could be different than 2023 if these guys rapidly improve or find consistency, as young skaters sometimes do. An optimistic scenario for sure, but probably not a crazy one.
 

her grace

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Ironically, Sadovsky is the major reason that Canada has 2 spots at Worlds (his 12th plus Messing’s 14th last season). His dire set of performances at the Olympics have tended to overshadow his strong finish at Worlds. That said, if Orzel or Gogolev skates well at 4CC, then I think that skater has earned a chance to be on the World team.
 

fan

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AND...what is going to happen with synchro worlds? The announcement said a final decision won't be made until February (which would be after Nova and Supremes compete against each other again at a challenger series event). Sad for Nova if they don't get to go because they laid down two clean programs at nationals and one could certainly argue that they earned a spot.....but how is it even possible that Supremes, the reining world champs, would not even qualify for worlds this year??
unfortunate falls for les supremes, but they were the vastly superior team at nats - speed, intricacy, etc. was all miles ahead of nova
 

screech

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Orzel is the only one of the 4 being mentioned up thread (incl Gogolev, Chiu and Sadovsky) who DIDN'T bomb the SP at Canadians, and who would have made it to the free skate at Worlds with such a SP. And he's had several bad SPs internationally. I expect the worlds slot will be based on the 4CC and JW performances, with particular attention to the SP. It doesn't matter how much you can pull up in the free if you don't get there.
I can't remember if I read it here, Twitter, or Reddit, but apparently Stephen had to drive his mother to the hospital for a medical emergency just before the SP. If true, his terrible performance there is understandable. If he can do a semi-decent SP, plus a FP even remotely resembling what he did on Saturday, he wouldn't be a bad choice, and I can understand why they're giving him a chance at 4CC.
 

Dobre

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Rafael should send him to Colorado to do altitude training. Nathan used to do this, though of course he would have had USFS's support in doing so. But I would think maybe Gogolev might be able to get access? (I mean, of course they should all go do altitude training. I just wonder if Gogolev might be more likely to get access than some?)
 

Yyzskater

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I think Orzel and Gogolev are at least as undependable as Sadovsky;). Time to send them to 4CCs and let them get the senior international experience to prove it.

(I'd hope it won't come down to a score comparison between two different events. Competing in Colorado Springs is not the same as competing elsewhere).
Agree! I also think SC needs to stop backing skaters long after they have proven themselves unreliable. Think of all the experience other skaters could have gotten if they had spread out the assignments to up and coming skaters rather than sending the same skaters out over and over regardless of their results (Daleman, Schumacher, Sadovsky, etc) . That's how you build depth in your pool of skaters.
All these skaters that shine at Nationals need int'l assignments to gain experience to grow as competitors. They can have all the tricks in the bag but they need to learn how to compete on the big stage. As they say, figure skating is 90% mental...
 

Marco

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Why would SC need to have a skate off between those three guys? They all have an international. That decision makes total sense.
Because they have one more spot to fill for the men's team to Worlds. They didn't immediately name Conrad to the team being the silver medalist presumably because they wanted to give Stephen and Wesley another shot. Having all 3 at the same comp seems fairest for the purpose of deciding that second spot. That's how they did it between Keegan, Nam and Roman couple years ago. Wesley being the bronze medalist does not get 4CCs over Stephen presumably because he is still age eligible and Stephen isn't? It makes sense that all 3 have an international championship assignment right now, but it leaves Wesley at a slight disadvantage in his quest for that spot. Wesley at Jr Worlds isn't able to do quads in the short and does 1 less element in the free, and Jr Worlds PCS isn't that comparable to 4CCs.

This is ofcourse moot since Keegan chooses to do 4CCs anyways.
 

kalamalka

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Because they have one more spot to fill for the men's team to Worlds. They didn't immediately name Conrad to the team being the silver medalist presumably because they wanted to give Stephen and Wesley another shot. Having all 3 at the same comp seems fairest for the purpose of deciding that second spot. That's how they did it between Keegan, Nam and Roman couple years ago. Wesley being the bronze medalist does not get 4CCs over Stephen presumably because he is still age eligible and Stephen isn't? It makes sense that all 3 have an international championship assignment right now, but it leaves Wesley at a slight disadvantage in his quest for that spot. Wesley at Jr Worlds isn't able to do quads in the short and does 1 less element in the free, and Jr Worlds PCS isn't that comparable to 4CCs.

This is ofcourse moot since Keegan chooses to do 4CCs anyways.
Gogolev's still junior age eligible this year (turned 19 in December), but he's competed at junior worlds 3 times (the last 3 times it happened, since there was no competition in 2021), whereas Chiu has only been once - finishing 4th to Gogolev's 5th last year. I think they're likely to confirm the worlds spot before JW, especially if either Orzel or Gogolev does well at 4CCs, but don't think other than timing JW would be a significant disadvantage for Chiu - at least if I were Skate Canada/the committee, you can look at how they skate in both programs, rather than comparing the scores. I can definitely see sending Chiu to JW again, if only to maximize JGP spots for next season.
 

greenapple

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Because they have one more spot to fill for the men's team to Worlds. They didn't immediately name Conrad to the team being the silver medalist presumably because they wanted to give Stephen and Wesley another shot. Having all 3 at the same comp seems fairest for the purpose of deciding that second spot. That's how they did it between Keegan, Nam and Roman couple years ago. Wesley being the bronze medalist does not get 4CCs over Stephen presumably because he is still age eligible and Stephen isn't? It makes sense that all 3 have an international championship assignment right now, but it leaves Wesley at a slight disadvantage in his quest for that spot. Wesley at Jr Worlds isn't able to do quads in the short and does 1 less element in the free, and Jr Worlds PCS isn't that comparable to 4CCs.

This is ofcourse moot since Keegan chooses to do 4CCs anyways.
The whole purpose of splitting the assignments is to give everyone an opportunity to earn the spot, so it does not matter which competition they go to. Wesley not being able to do quads in the SP at World Juniors does not put him at any disadvantage. How he does overall is what will count - as it will with the two guys going to 4CCs.

Thank God SC is finally giving everyone in contention an opportunity and not handing out prime assignments based solely on domestic results as it had done for so many years.
 
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4rkidz

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The whole purpose of splitting the assignments is to give everyone an opportunity to earn the spot, so it does not matter which competition they go to. Wesley not being able to do quads in the SP at World Juniors does not put him at any disadvantage. How he does overall is what will count - as it will with the two guys going to 4CCs.

Thank God SC is finally giving everyone in contention an opportunity and not handing out prime assignments based solely on domestic results as it had done for so many years.
This quad certainly seems to be a shift towards opportunities for all who meet the criteria.The chance of more opportunities is motivating for skaters and their teams. I think it is already starting to pay off.
 

Joubabe

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Can anyone explain why SC selected the womens' fourth and sixth place finishers for 4CC over Fiona, who finished third? I haven't seen Fiona before. Does she not have international minimums?
 

Sylvia

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Can anyone explain why SC selected the womens' fourth and sixth place finishers for 4CC over Fiona, who finished third? I haven't seen Fiona before. Does she not have international minimums?
Correct, Fiona has yet to compete in a senior international.

ETA: This was discussed well before Nationals in the Canadian Women's news thread (in October when the assignments for CS Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria were announced and Fiona was not one of the 3 seniors selected - Ruiter, Miclette, Dupuis).
 

4rkidz

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Can anyone explain why SC selected the womens' fourth and sixth place finishers for 4CC over Fiona, who finished third? I haven't seen Fiona before. Does she not have international minimums?
she doesn't have minimums and she didn't get the assignments as she didn't meet the criteria for senior internationals. But I'm sure she will rectify that soon and will get the assignments. She is a great skater.
 

chantilly

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Regarding Fiona, I believe minimums and the fact she doesn’t have a triple triple.
I believe it’s mandatory criteria for Skate Canada senior team? As well it should be.

I have to say I’m pretty impressed so far with the level of the up and coming female skaters, including Fiona who is a bright light and gorgeous jumper.

They are still a bit behind the rest of the world who have triple tripled and are attempting quads and triple axels, but at least it’s going in the right direction.
 

Sylvia

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Regarding Fiona, I believe minimums and the fact she doesn’t have a triple triple.
I believe it’s mandatory criteria for Skate Canada senior team? As well it should be.
The "2022-2023 Selection Guidelines for Senior Challenger and International Events: Singles, Pairs & Ice Dance" document lists benchmark scores but doesn't mention a triple-triple is required: https://skatecanada.ca/wp-content/u...enior-Challenger-and-International-Events.pdf

2023 ISU FIGURE SKATING CHAMPIONSHIPS SELECTION CRITERIA: https://skatecanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2023-ISU-Championships-Selection-Criteria.pdf

I'm impressed that Skate Canada's Athlete Selection Procedure for the 2024 Winter Youth Olympic Games (January 19-February 1 in Gangwon, KOR) document was recently added:
 

Sylvia

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Regarding Fiona, I believe minimums and the fact she doesn’t have a triple triple.
I believe it’s mandatory criteria for Skate Canada senior team? As well it should be.
Just checked and Fiona landed 3Lo+1Eu+3S cleanly in her Nationals free program, as well as in her FP at the Sectional Series comp. in mid-October (her senior domestic debut) and Challenge in December. She hasn't attempted a 3-3 in her SP, AFAIK (3Lz+2T is her current SP combo).
 

danafan

Canadian ladies über
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Just checked and Fiona landed 3Lo+1Eu+3S cleanly in her Nationals free program, as well as in her FP at the Sectional Series comp. in mid-October (her senior domestic debut) and Challenge in December. She hasn't attempted a 3-3 in her SP, AFAIK (3Lz+2T is her current SP combo).

Bombardier was doing triple sal triple toe earlier in the season, including at the next gen event where she had -0.86 GOE. She switched to the triple lutz combo later in the year.
And if a triple triple was a requirement it didn't stop Dupuis from getting a senior assignment (she was doing triple lutz double toe earlier in the season, though supposedly was planning a triple toe but never attempted it). She later switched back to the triple toe triple toe she had done last season.
 

Sylvia

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Bombardier was doing triple sal triple toe earlier in the season, including at the next gen event where she had -0.86 GOE. She switched to the triple lutz combo later in the year.
Thanks!
I guess my mistake.
I thought Fiona mentioned at her interview she needed a triple triple.
Which interview (and when) was this?
 

danafan

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I thought Fiona mentioned at her interview she needed a triple triple.

Which interview (and when) was this?
She was interviewed on the CBC TV broadcast (not the daily motion feed) and she said she needed a triple triple to move up to the next level, or something like that. She specifically said a triple toe or a triple loop combo (meaning two jump combo).
 

Seerek

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Agree! I also think SC needs to stop backing skaters long after they have proven themselves unreliable. Think of all the experience other skaters could have gotten if they had spread out the assignments to up and coming skaters rather than sending the same skaters out over and over regardless of their results (Daleman, Schumacher, Sadovsky, etc) . That's how you build depth in your pool of skaters.
All these skaters that shine at Nationals need int'l assignments to gain experience to grow as competitors. They can have all the tricks in the bag but they need to learn how to compete on the big stage. As they say, figure skating is 90% mental...

Yes I agree with you on principle, but the "new" skaters still need to meet the Total Segment Score minimum requirements as per @Sylvia's document attached in her reply earlier.

For the men, that means only 6 skaters this season were going to be getting any international assignments (that includes Challengers/Senior B's).

I'm not sure about minimum score requirements in the past.
When he was top 10 at Canadians in prior years, Bennet Toman was getting (multiple) Challenger events.
Beres Clements also got a challenger event last season and I suspect Matt Newnham will get a Senior B assignment soon.
 

Fan217

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I really like Fiona, but didn't she kinda bomb the short program at the junior level in Graz? I am not sure she would have gotten Senior minimums for 4CC had she been in the Senior competition (though I think she should have been).
 

Marco

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So many posters seem to be saying SC dropped the ball for not sending Fiona to a senior international earlier to get the mins. Has her summer and fall domestic performances been strong enough to warrant her to be sent? Or was Nationals more of an unexpected outing for her?! If she had been solid against her peers all season long, then perhaps SC did drop the ball; but if she had only been subpar, then I wouldn't think too much about it. Besides Maddi and Gabby (who did have a strong short program at Skate Canada), And Kaiya's health uncertain, it did look like SC was running out of obvious ladies skaters to support at the senior international stage.
 

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