Canadian Pairs 2017/2018 Season News and Updates

[barbarafan]

Totally feelin it

Me too. When I found out their music I was disappointed (I wanted something dramatic like Carmen) but decided to wait and see. This was the first time I saw it and I love it. They did have several flaws but they did not take away from the program. For a first outing I am happy.

 

[barbarafan]

There are many reasons to love Dylan and Luba but this is definitely not one of them. I have now decided who I want to come 4th at Nationals.

Obviously not a fan...Who do you want to come third?

 

[dramagrrl]

Obviously not a fan...Who do you want to come third?

Why does someone have to be immediately deemed “obviously not a fan” just because they express criticism of a team or dislike of one particular program? If you look at Rock2’s earlier posts, you can see that they clearly appreciate many things about I/M’s skating.

I would assume they want MT/M to come third or mean they want the podium to be a combo of D/R, S/B and MT/M in whatever order.

ETA: I just got around to watching I/M's LP, and oh goodness... I know I was one of the few people who disliked their Josh Groban LP last season - I thought it was a cheesefest with empty choreography - but that program looks like a masterpiece compared to this one. Yikes.

 

[barbarafan]

Why does someone have to be immediately deemed “obviously not a fan” just because they express criticism of a team or dislike of one particular program? If you look at Rock2’s earlier posts, you can see that they clearly appreciate many things about I/M’s skating.

I would assume they want MT/M to come third or mean they want the podium to be a combo of D/R, S/B and MT/M in whatever order.

ETA: I just got around to watching I/M's LP, and oh goodness... I know I was one of the few people who disliked their Josh Groban LP last season - I thought it was a cheesefest with empty choreography - but that program looks like a masterpiece compared to this one. Yikes.

The comment and question was asked of Rock2.

To wish that everything a team has pushed themselves and worked for for 4 yrs does not happen is a really crappy thing to say. It would be mean and insensitive to say it if you hated the people in question but more so if you like them. It is one thing to say you do not feel that the program is the right vehicle to get them to the games and place well there but another to wish that upon them.

 

[Rock2]

The comment and question was asked of Rock2.

To wish that everything a team has pushed themselves and worked for for 4 yrs does not happen is a really crappy thing to say. It would be mean and insensitive to say it if you hated the people in question but more so if you like them. It is one thing to say you do not feel that the program is the right vehicle to get them to the games and place well there but another to wish that upon them.

@dramagrrl got it pretty much right.

My comment about them being 4th is more about they to me have the 4th best content out there in Canada and thus they aren't at this point my choice for the Olympic team.

I think you're being overly sensitive to the choice of words. Four awesome Olympic-worthy teams in Canada. Agonizing to know one won't go so who would be my choice to be left off? Them. I don't wake up in the morning and ask for God to rain frogs and locusts on their lives so pls don't be tempted to respond thinking that's my intent. It's easier to say I pick them 4th vs a longer statement of listing the other 3 teams I wish to see make it. We know who they are.

 

[dramagrrl]

The comment and question was asked of Rock2.

To wish that everything a team has pushed themselves and worked for for 4 yrs does not happen is a really crappy thing to say. It would be mean and insensitive to say it if you hated the people in question but more so if you like them. It is one thing to say you do not feel that the program is the right vehicle to get them to the games and place well there but another to wish that upon them.

Clearly I understood that the original question was asked of @Rock2. I was commenting on the fact that you felt the need to label another poster as “obviously” not a fan, which I felt was uncalled for in general and definitely in this specific instance given @Rock2’s posting history regarding I/M and Canadian pairs, even just in this thread alone.

As for being “mean and insensitive”, I think you are being oversensitive to what was just a statement of personal preference. If I said I wanted Skater #1 to not win a gold medal because I prefer their rival, Skater #2, am I wishing their hard work and dreams will be shattered or am I just wishing my personal favourite will win??

 

[JoannaLouise]

I finally got around to watching Lubov & Dylan's LP, and I actually really like it. Sure, it's kind of sappy - but they sold the heck out of their Josh Groban LP last year, and by the end of the season I ended up loving it. I think the same might be true of this program once they've had a few more outings.

I *love* their SP, but I kind of wish she'd go back to wearing black pants like she did earlier in the summer. I thought it showed off her lines and gave the program an edgier look.

 

[Rock2]

I do love I/M's SP. It's got a compelling edge and mood. I hope it develops further and I'd like to see a cooler lift that represents the music better as the season progresses.

I'm slowly starting to 'get' I/M's long surprisingly thanks to TSL's recap where Dave mentioned he talked about it with Sandra Bezic, a goddess in my eyes and one of the choreographers of this program.
It's like a throwback Stars On Ice Barb-and-Paul program where they are debating having him skate in jeans. Ah, I see.

So I now better get the vibe/concept they are trying to create and will see how it develops. Because I'm not a fan of the music, I factored that out by watching without the music. So far finding the choreo to be almost non-existent in the first minute or so and fairly cliched in other areas (e.g. the dramatic embraces). I have to let go of the fact that there is a big audience for that kind of schlock and let them do their thing. As for me personally, I just can't yet love it.

They are just capable of so much. And even though I feel I have the ability to look at a program through September/October eyes (ie not fully cooked) I'm not convinced this program can show off all they have to offer. Trying to keep an open mind, but it's admittedly a struggle.

 

[dramagrrl]

I'm slowly starting to 'get' I/M's long surprisingly thanks to TSL's recap where Dave mentioned he talked about it with Sandra Bezic, a goddess in my eyes and one of the choreographers of this program. It's like a throwback Stars On Ice Barb-and-Paul program where they are debating having him skate in jeans. Ah, I see.

If that's what Sandra was going for, I personally thinks she's really lost her touch. (She was also a goddess in my eyes in her heyday - obviously, her work for Kurt was pure genius, her work for Stars on Ice made the tour must-see skating for years, and she also pretty much single-handedly elevated the choreography on the professional skating competition circuit.) There's nothing in that program that would've hinted at that type of concept to me.

Barb and Paul's pro programs were often fairly simple in terms of choreo and also quite similar to each other in terms of elements and in-betweens; the reason why they were so great was because even though they were a platonic pair off-ice, they had sizzling sexual chemistry on the ice. If you watch some of their classic programs, like "When a Man Loves a Woman" or "Unchained Melody", the choreography isn't amazing in and of itself; it's the heat of their connection that sold the programs.

Quite frankly, I don't think I/M have that type of chemistry at all or are capable of developing and selling that kind of a program. When they tried something "sexier" with "Black Velvet" on the CSOI tour in the spring, IMO, it fell very flat and looked choppy and unnatural to their style of skating.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I agree with you @dramagrrl that I/M do not have the sexual chemistry of Barb & Paul, or even of James/Cipres, whose moves are being copied. However, there's nothing wrong with going in this direction. I think it looks good on them. And here I see we have the short hair theme continuing too. It all started with Meagan, then Wenjing Sui, then this off-season Vanessa cut her hair in a short up-do, and Meagan cut her hair even shorter. Now Luba has cut her hair in a shorter bob too. I'm seeing something similar with pairs guys going for the beards as well as all the manbuns sprouting.

I would disagree with you that Sandra Bezic "has lost her touch," simply because you dislike I/M's lp.

There are many reasons to love Dylan and Luba but this is definitely not one of them. I have now decided who I want to come 4th at Nationals.

What is it exactly that you dislike about this free program? The music & lyrics? The choreo? Dave discussed on latest TSL episode the 80s throwback vibe for I/M's LP. Dave also mentioned speaking with Sandra Bezic about her vision behind the LP choreo: it's supposed to be somewhat of an extension of or counterpoint to their last season's romantic lp theme. Sandra apparently wanted Dylan to wear jeans (evoking the Barb & Paul famous exhibition). I'm glad in a way that Dylan didn't go whole hog with the jeans. But I do like the 'throwback' vibe and there's nothing wrong with referencing the glorious past. Barbara Underhill & Paul Martini were the Canadian pairs team who broke the 19-year World podium drought for Canada in pairs post the early tradition-forming stellar successes of Dafoe/Bowden and especially of 4-time World champions and 1960 Olympic gold medalists Barbara Wagner/Robert Paul (name similarity to the later Barb & Paul is an interesting coincidence).

Post the 1960s, of course the Russians gained a strangle-hold on pairs. Interestingly U.S. pairs teams held their own in the 70s and somewhat in the 80s and 90s, but fell off completely after 2002. So the U.S. has been in a World podium drought for about 16 years and counting. I would imagine it will take longer than Canada's 19 years for U.S. pairs to ascend the World podium again, particularly because of the huge depth that now exists in pairs internationally, coupled with U.S. fed ineptness and the relative consistency of Chinese and Russian pairs programs (the Russians are trying to mount a comeback to continue dominating at the Olympics). As well, Canadian pairs have more rep and status than U.S. pairs due to Canada's more recent successes with Brasseur/Eisler, Sale/Pelletier, and Duhamel/Radford. History is always informative and a good reference point.

Anyway, aside from Dave's usual snark throughout the broadcast, there are some interesting points made, and he likes what I/M are doing this season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OSxf6iBpWw I/M briefly in the intro and then scroll to 47:38

I think it's clear that I/M's sp choreo and some movement qualities in their lp are inspired by the recent programs/choreography of James/Cipres, particularly J/C's last season and current season short programs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt4AlvCWigs I/M sp Finlandia

This style works for I/M I think, even though the judges didn't reward them very well at Finlandia. I would say that all pairs these days include variations of moves that were innovated by Savchenko/Szolkowy and their coach, Ingo Steuer (specifically, the sideways and backward leans, slides, and hand hold variations). And as well we are seeing a lot of Julie Marcotte moves among pairs teams. And John Kerr's work with J/C and S/M has caught on too like a house on fire.

ETA:
Okay, I posted the above prior to seeing your post where you say that you get it @Rock2, after listening to Dave's commentary. Despite having to wade through some of his snark, Dave does offer some interesting insights here and there. I like listening although it can be a chore. I do sometimes agree with his takes, and I can separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to his guff. There are interesting posts by fans on Youtube as well in response to this TSL episode.

As far as who gets to go to the Olympics, that's always tough. I would imagine that D/R, I/M and S/B will get the nod, depending upon how they perform in the moment. Tough competition on the national level is a good thing to help make everyone better. But yes, it's tough when there are so few spots to compete internationally under the ISU's antiquated competition structure.

 

[googooeyes]

Just a side note to the discussion on throwback Canadian pairs: the Jelineks were on the world podium from 1957-1962 when they won gold. Wagner and Paul were gold medalists from 57-60 before them and also Olympic gold medalists in 60.
They were huge stars in the old ice shows back in the day.
There is some great heritage there.
I personally like I&M's programs this year.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep, the Jelineks (immigrants to Canada) won Worlds once in 1962 apparently after Wagner/Paul retired -- and after the unfortunate cancellation of Worlds in 1961 due to the Sabena plane crash that killed the entire U.S. figure skating team/ coaches/ family members. Canadians Dafoe/Bowden were two-time World champions prior to Wagner/Paul breaking through in a really big way with 3 World championships and OGM thus setting a high standard and stellar reputation for Canadian pairs. The Jelineks also won a silver and two bronzes at Worlds.

As I've always said, the history is illuminating, insightful and essential, even though few people in figure skating care to take the time to check out the history and make the relevant connections. We are continuing to lose connections with the past ever since Dick Button's retirement. A lot of fans today think only of the moment or the recent history, rather than delving back to understand the past and how it impacts the present. There are so many connections to make.

When I kept hearing people acting as if U.S. pairs are so terrible and that Canadian pairs are so much better, I asked why and I decided to do some research last year. With the Internet, research capabilities are right at our fingertips, and there are some good books too. Also, a few old-timers are still around who we definitely need to talk to and learn from before it's too late. Allison Manley's (@manleywoman) archived podcasts are a godsend, as well as P.J. Kwong's podcast interviews that manleywoman inspired. And as always @N_Halifax's Skateguard blog.

I have noticed that Canadian pairs always seemed to receive more props among North American teams, even when they were not actually better than U.S. pairs (for e.g. at 2010 Olympics). Evora/Ladwig were unfairly low-balled when they skated better than all three Canadian teams. Dube/Davison were a better team, but they simply did not live up to their billing. I don't think the other two Canadian pairs that year were better than E/L, despite being rated ahead. A lot of pairs teams made mistakes and got breaks ahead of E/L at that Olympics.

Currently Canadian pairs are obviously better than U.S. teams, and Canadians have a wonderful history to be proud of in pairs. I also think Skate Canada pays more attention to developing their pairs than U.S. fed has ever done. So that makes a difference. The major influence is that Wagner/Paul broke through in a big way at Worlds and Olympics and thus established a legacy. And also Canadian pairs have had a great deal more recent successes at Worlds and Olympics, as I mentioned earlier. That's why I found it surprising to discover that Canadian teams were off the Worlds podium for 19 years from 1964 (Wilkes/Revell won bronze) to 1983 when Underhill/Martini broke through again for Canada, winning bronze and then grabbing gold in 1984 prior to retiring -- U/M had faltered at the 1984 Olympics, where the Carruthers siblings from the U.S. won silver.

The Russian pairs dominance after the extraordinary innovations of Belousova/Protopopov in the 1960s is what kept so many countries off the pairs podium. However, U.S. teams managed to remain relevant in the 1960s and 1970s with the Josephs, the Kauffmans, Starbuck/Shelley, and Babilonia/Gardner. In the 1980s, the Carruthers and Watson/Oppegard reached World and Olympic podiums. And later, Kuchiki/Sand, Meno/Sand, Ina/Zimmerman, and that has been it in terms of most recent U.S. podium appearances, although there have been some other top contending teams from the U.S. just not significantly enough for about 16 years. However, I think the U.S. needs to look back and gain some inspiration from the fact that it was a U.S. pairs team, Karol & Peter Kennedy, who were the first North American team to win a World championship, in 1950. The Kennedys had won silver twice before winning gold, and they also won silver at the 1952 Olympics. The U.S.'s Loughran/Badger were the first North American team to reach a World podium, winning bronze in 1930, and the first NA team on an Olympic podium with their silver at the 1932 Olympics.

Canada's first breakthrough on the World and Olympics podium was in 1948 with Morrow/ Diestelmeyer winning bronze at both events. Later Dafoe/Bowden extended the Canadian legacy which paved the way for the huge success of Wagner/Paul, accompanied by the Jelineks.

 

[Rock2]

Just a side note to the discussion on throwback Canadian pairs: the Jelineks were on the world podium from 1957-1962 when they won gold. Wagner and Paul were gold medalists from 57-60 before them and also Olympic gold medalists in 60.
They were huge stars in the old ice shows back in the day.
There is some great heritage there.
I personally like I&M's programs this year.

I think where the debate comes in is reconciling the warm fuzzies of connection to Canadian heritage and skaters/choreographers we admire and then looking at the program in isolation under IJS and determine its merit.

The latter piece of this argument is where some including me are hung up.

Having said that, we live in a world where components continue to not be judged objectively. There is room to fake it a bit with program concept and score well using your reputation or riding one component really hard. Some of the PCS in the Bs has been genuinely headscratch-worthy (won't name names to distract the discussion); the door is open to score using different paths as a result.

We'll see where the GP positions them.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Components continue to be manipulated for the most part, and the scoring system is imperfect and the sport is political. These are always factors, along with our personal preferences and perceptions, which is part of what makes the sport so debatable, and sometimes frustrating. It's better not to have too many expectations, but that's difficult to manage too.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't think heritage competitive programs have been particularly successful, whether they are greatest hits -- ex: T/D FS in 1994 Olys -- self-referential -- V/M FD in Sochi -- or trying to capture an older feel. Can work fine for exhibitions, though, especially Asada's Bach and a number of Takahashi's jump-lite or jumpless ex's, Machida's "Swan Lake."

 

[aftershocks]

Zabiiako/Enbert could jump over Seguin/Bilodeau by then...

If you must have someone 'jump over' S/B, pick another team please. Z/E have long legs yes, but they'd seriously need excitement, energy and enthusiasm transfusion, as well as chemistry and passion boost, more unique and original programs, personality transplants and much better programs to overtake more exciting teams like S/B who have just as good skating skills to go along with enviable connection, charm, presence and engaging programs that have depth (see S/B's programs below). I realize that Z/E have somewhat better programs this season than they had last year, and the long lines that judges love. Still I see them as the pesky Bazarova/Larionov-type Russian pairs team who hang around copping decent scores from the judges just because of love for Russian aesthetic and not much else.

Of course, I enjoyed and rooted for Bazarova with sexy Deputat who brought her to life. But then they didn't make it as they weren't one of Mozer's teams.

Charlie and Julianne have weathered a tough time with the injuries and loss of momentum. I like how they are coming out of the gate this season, and I'm in love with their programs and the light, effortlessness of their skating. The contrast between their sp and fp is just right. It's obvious that they love both programs and are fully committed to the music and choreo, unlike their problematic sp from last season. It's good to see them so happy and pacing themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwMp9Fwb_A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vEmE71sv04
Did D/L and David Wilson choreograph both of S/B's programs?

The judges aren't quite giving S/B the scores as yet, so it will be interesting to see how they fare on the GP and at Canadian Nationals. But they've got programs that have a lot of depth and really work well for them. I think I/M's programs are fun and work for them too, but S/B's programs can really be magical if everything comes together, plus they have a more palpable chemistry on the ice than I/M. It's interesting that all three top Canadian teams are picking up on a similar vibe, moves and positions seen in J/C's programs by John Kerr.

M-T/M have come a long way too under Gauthier/Marcotte's and Julie Marcotte's tutelage. But I still see it as D/R on top and I/M juggling for position with S/B (fingers crossed S/B remain healthy all season). If D/R don't improve their confidence and consistency, the scoring would be close, but I have trouble seeing them not getting the nod in their final season at Cdn Nationals. Surely M-T/M will put up a strong fight too, so it could come down to who skates the cleanest to make podium and team selection.

 

[dramagrrl]

Did D/L and David Wilson choreograph both of S/B's programs?

I believe Sam Chouinard was credited as one of the choreographers of their SP.

I agree with you about S/B's programs this season, their natural connection on ice, and especially your points about why Z/E should not be considered a big threat to jump ahead of them in the future.

I'm crossing all my fingers and toes that Julianne and Charlie manage to stay healthy for this whole season and that the judges begin properly rewarding the quality of their skating and choreography.

 

[Rafter]

I'm reserving judgement on I/Ms LP until a little later in the season. I get where they and Bezic are going with it. We'll see if it gets there.

I do agree with those who say that I/M have lost their chemistry. Dylan seems almost indifferent/cool towards her. Even in the K&C! Maybe it was just the one competition. We'll see.

As for the S/B vs I/M debate....both teams frequently make mistakes. So the difference to me comes down to lifts, throws and PCS. And Lubov is superior to Seguin (and all other Cdn ladies) in every aspect of PCS and her positions in lifts are better and their throws are bigger.

 

[Rock2]

Nearly this whole cycle has been a write-off for S/B due to injuries.

Reaching the GPF a few years ago, scoring about 5 pts higher for the same quality of short they did on the GP was a big moment. Their strong book of work that season was pushing them into a whole other tier. Sadly, they couldn't consolidate their standing by dropping out of a bunch of events or showing up untrained in the few years after.

I actually see them as consistent. When they are healthy and trained they hit most elements.
But not being able to upgrade their elements as they had planned is going to probably leave them in top 10 internationally for now, barring epic skates on the GP, which I'm not expecting.

Staying healthy to me is more about a foundation for next summer's training so they can stake their claim among the fresh crop taking over after the retirements.

 

[dramagrrl]

As for the S/B vs I/M debate....both teams frequently make mistakes.

Except Julianne has probably landed at least five SBS triples in competition for every one jump Lubov has landed.

I would say there are several other areas where S/B have been a superior team when not dealing with injuries, and would definitely not say, carte blanche, that PCS is a walk in the park for Lubov and/or I/M... but many aspects of PCS are subjective, so there’s not much use arguing those points with those who clearly see otherwise.

 

[Mary S]

Octoberfest happened this past weekend. In Junior, Ono/Schreiber are still listed as Japan so I guess they really will be competing for Japan this season. Schumacher/Daleman were supposed to compete. Was curious to see if they've improved since the summer with more training time but alas they withdrew. 4 novice pairs competed - 1 from out west and 3 from Ontario including the top 2 Ontario pairs. Also 2 pre-novice pairs and 1 senior pair competed. If you're interested, results are here: http://www.skateontario.org/results/17OCT/17OCT.html

 

[Sylvia]

Octoberfest happened this past weekend. In Junior, ... Schumacher/Daleman were supposed to compete. Was curious to see if they've improved since the summer with more training time but alas they withdrew.

Alison Schumacher competed in singles at the JGP in Italy last week (she placed 8th and appears to be a contender for the 2018 Junior Worlds ladies' spot).

Thanks for the results link - it's also posted in the Canadian competitions thread in Kiss & Cry (for those with access): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...onal-summer-series.101396/page-3#post-5152775

 

[DFO]

Thank you @Mary S. I was impressed by McIntosh/Toste results (111,66). In the last 5 or 10 years, only a few novice teams managed to past 110 points and usually at the Challenge or at the Nationals. Panetta/Lapointe, last year champions, offered the same level or performance... but Steven Lapointe being already in it's last year of international jr eligibility, while McIntosh/Toste are much younger. So it is really encouraging to see them so early inthe season, even before the sections. Then we have 3 teams close to 95 points inclugind Ripley/Brawley (94,07, Oktoberfest) from Ontario and Perreault/Pierro (100.35 at Qc Summer) and Pouliot/Simard (new - 94,6 at Qc Summer) from Québec. These 4 teams will offer us a nice battle for the podium places at the Nationals and I'm sure we will see some (at least McIntosh/Toste) in Junior ISU events, as soon as next year.

 

[cdn skate fan]

Thank you @Mary S. I was impressed by McIntosh/Toste results. In the last 5 or 10 years, only a few novice teams managed to past 110 points and usually at the Challenge or at the Nationals. Panetta/Lapointe, last year champions, offered the same level or performance... but Steven Lapointe being already in it's last year of international jr eligibility, while McIntosh/Toste are much younger. So it is really encouraging to see them so early inthe season, even before the sections. Then we have 3 teams close to 95 points inclugind Ripley/Brawely from Ontario and Perreault/Pierro (100 point) and Pouliot/Simard (new) from Québec. These 4 teams will offer us a nice battle for the podium places at the Nationals and I'm sure we will see some (at least McIntosh/Toste) in Junior ISU events, as soon as next year.

I wonder what the future JGP eligibility is for these top novice teams? Does anyone know ages for these boys and girls?

 

[DFO]

Next year, McIntosh/Toste should be 13 and 15 or 16. But I don't have their birth date, so I may be wrong by a year.
Perreault/Pierro will be 13-17
Ripley/Brawley 16-18
Pouliot/Simard 13-17

So they should all be ISU Jr eligible (unless Brooke McIntosh turns 13 too late), and they will be all eligible until the girls turns 19 and the boys 21, so it means 2 more years at least (Ripley/Brawley), 3 for Perreault/Pierro and Pouliot/Simard and 4 for Mcintosh/Toste...

Imagine, 4 years of experience in ISU Junior. That would be a HUGE frametime experience. Start building those trophy shelves!!! Just hoping they will not outgrew each other...

Don't forget the Boys-Eddy and Levesque/Hudon who already have assignment this year and will remain jr eligible next year. There is also Andrew/Knott who will become first time eligible, then Isabelle Brasseur is coming back... Junior pairs in Canada will be a totally new game next year with some. Canadian-American are also contemplating some spots (the Frantz and Marvaldi/Villeneuve)...

 

[jlmart]

That would be Justine Brasseur - Isabelle is a bit old to come back lol.

 

[Alvyne]

Duhamel/Radford interview about reworking their long program

https://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/2017/10/16/duhamel-and-radford-take-a-deep-breath/

 

[DFO]

That would be Justine Brasseur - Isabelle is a bit old to come back lol.

You are right... it was late!

 

[Catherine M]

IF Justine Brasseur continues on with her new partner, Mark Bardei after this season, she won't be eligible for JGP events as he's aging out.

So they would have to join the other aging out teams--Walsh/Michaud, Choinard/Ostiguy, Matte/Ferland--on the senior international circuit. Note that Panetta/Lapointe won't be able to skate internationally at all in the 18-19 season as Chloe turns 15 after July 1, 2018.

 

[DFO]

I didn't knew the age of Bardei.

I believe Panetta/Lapointe will not be eligible for international jr next year, but not because of Chloe's age (they are legal until 18) but because of Steven, turning 21. It's in Advanced novice they have to be less than 15.