Canadian Pairs 2017/2018 Season News and Updates

[Rock2]

What happened with Schumacher/Daleman?
I know they are both new to pairs and I will not panic since they will need prob 2 years together to be competitive, but that score is surprising. They can both jump, having been singles skaters with most of the big jumps so I thought they could bully their way to a 40 anyway.

That score suggests multiple falls or one or more element that just plain failed such as the lift coming down....

 

[Sylvia]

What happened with Schumacher/Daleman?

Their competition debut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkmHTYvnSBM
(This user has uploaded 3 of the other 7 Junior Pairs SP videos from the live stream as well as the of 2nd place Novice pair.)

 

[Catherine M]

What happened with Schumacher/Daleman?
I know they are both new to pairs and I will not panic since they will need prob 2 years together to be competitive, but that score is surprising. They can both jump, having been singles skaters with most of the big jumps so I thought they could bully their way to a 40 anyway.

That score suggests multiple falls or one or more element that just plain failed such as the lift coming down....

You have to do sbs double lutzes in the pairs short program this season so they aren't going to garner big points from their jumps. And you have to do a throw double or triple loop, one of the harder throws to learn so they only did a double.

Where you get big points in jr pairs is doing a triple twist and a level four lift and those two elements were their worst--only a single twist and a weak lift.

They obviously aren't ready for the JGP but we'll see where they are come December and challenge after a few more months of training.

 

[Rock2]

You have to do sbs double lutzes in the pairs short program this season so they aren't going to garner big points from their jumps. And you have to do a throw double or triple loop, one of the harder throws to learn so they only did a double.

Where you get big points in jr pairs is doing a triple twist and a level four lift and those two elements were their worst--only a single twist and a weak lift.

They obviously aren't ready for the JGP but we'll see where they are come December and challenge after a few more months of training.

Right, right. All makes sense. I'm so not in skating mode yet, as I brainfarted on jr. short requirements.

 

[Rock2]

S/D looked fine all things considered. Thanks for posting the link. That's tough music to skate to when you're just learning the discipline.

It's got to be so much harder to take TWO skaters out of singles to migrate to pairs together at the same time. You don't have one partner teaching the other to supplement the coaching and you don't have an experienced partner reassuring the newbie while skating in competition.

They will probably need another full year before they are really ready to compete. For now some summer comps and being able to skate at Nationals would be experience that can only help them. I hope they stick with it.

 

[DFO]

I will wait for the free program before leaving comments, but watching the novice and junior pairs one after the other left me on the impression there were some rookie novices, good novices and experimented juniors. But that last group was really thin. Many juniors were merely doing pairs figures that pre-novice where doing last year by the end of the season. But that's fine, it's only the opening of the season.

Complete detailed results at:
http://www.skateontario.org/minto-entriesstart-ordersresults/

 

[Habs]

Still curious about the Wirtz comment. I would have thought they would be in demand given their experience.

Me too!

 

[aftershocks]

What happened with Schumacher/Daleman?
I know they are both new to pairs and I will not panic

Their competition debut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkmHTYvnSBM

Schumacher/Daleman have a nice look on the ice. Since they are both new to pairs, they are obviously on a learning curve. I didn't notice any egregious mistakes. But clearly they are slow and very tentative on many of the pairs elements that they are in the process of learning and becoming comfortable with. So much is dependent upon rhythm and timing between them. This while they also need to develop proficiency and confidence particularly with throw twist, throw jumps, lifts, sbs spins, combo spin, and unison.

S/D's death spiral was fairly decent, but that ubiquitous 'bend forward hold boot' by lady before going into the full death spiral is so overdone, I just don't want to see it anymore. It was cool and unique when first performed about 5 years ago in Julie Marcotte's choreo for Takahashi/Tran.

 

[barbarafan]

Schumacher/Daleman have a nice look on the ice. Since they are both new to pairs, they are obviously on a learning curve. I didn't notice any egregious mistakes. But clearly they are slow and very tentative on many of the pairs elements that they are in the process of learning and becoming comfortable with. So much is dependent upon rhythm and timing between them. This while they also need to develop proficiency and confidence particularly with throw twist, throw jumps, lifts, sbs spins, combo spin, and unison.

S/D's death spiral was fairly decent, but that ubiquitous 'bend forward hold boot' by lady before going into the full death spiral is so overdone, I just don't want to see it anymore. It was cool and unique when first performed about 5 years ago in Julie Marcotte's choreo for Takahashi/Tran.

They only did a single twist but I thought the single was very well done.Better to get the technique down pat before upping the rotations

 

[aftershocks]

They only did a single twist but I thought the single was very well done.Better to get the technique down pat before upping the rotations

Yep, I could see that it was a single twist, very carefully done. And it's quite clear why. They are new to learning that move as former singles skaters. Safety first! Learn to walk before running, eh. But that's one of the reasons why their score is where it's at. It was not due to mistakes, as they were precise and careful. It makes sense to take things slowly, as they are getting their feet wet and giving their competitive feel as a team a chance to develop.

That single twist does look odd and reminiscent of days gone by, when the move was first created.

 

[DFO]

After Minto Novice pairs free program (non-official results):
1. MicIntosh/Toste 29.02+61,51=90,53
2. Ripley/Brawley33.72+52,83=86,55
3. Perrrault/Pierro 24,19+51,52=75,71
4, Swanson / Ebert 25,63+47,13=72,76
5. Turbide/St-Louis 21,76+49,86=71,62
6. Pouliot/Simard 27,9 + wd = 27,9

Junior in a few minutes...

 

[DFO]

Junior pairs Minto. Non official results:

1 Walsh/Michaud 53,65+95,07=148,72
2 Boys-Eddy x2 42.86+80,87=123,73
3 Andrew/Knott 39,08+68,46=107,54
4. Mc Caw/Addcock 32,55+74,84=107,39
5 Levesque / Hudon 39,18+66,7=105,88
6. Frantz x 2 37.22+65,65=102,87
7 Schumacher/Daleman 31,93+ WD

 

[Catherine M]

Will be interesting to see if Skate Canada ignores the fact that the Boys-Eddys don't have a double axel or sbs triple jump in their freeskate and sends them out on the JGP anyway as their score at Minto is pretty decent. Might depend how the Quebec teams do in 2 weeks on whether they get a spot or not.

Of the novice/junior teams I saw this weekend, I think I liked MacIntosh/Toste the best--well of course I loved Walsh/Michaud but that was a given.

 

[Rock2]

I have mixed feelings about Walsh/Michaud.
Clearly he's an athletic stud with tons of skill and moves really well, too. And kudos to Walsh for getting up to speed in pairs to stay with him. She doesn't look out of place.

Together they are decent but unremarkable. But clearly the best junior pair we got by a long shot.
Their short is fine but Trennt's coaches insist in giving him syrupy stuff year after year. Don't get me wrong -- I love show programs with tons of emotion and he can definitely do justice to the music. But someone has got to just once let him rock out by creating programs that can show so much more of what I think he can do. I feel like he's skating in a straight jacket, as if the packaging year after year is all about making sure the girl is comfortable.

Skating to "I can't help falling in love with you" with a girl who just turned 16 is just a let down on so many levels.

I have said in the past with Trennt it's a long term view. I'm convinced he's going to have a kick butt career. Just gonna have to wait for all the right pieces to come together. Next cycle....

 

[Mad for Skating]

What happened with Schumacher/Daleman?

It's gonna sound stupid (I clearly don't follow Team Canada like I should), but any relation to Gabby Daleman?

[QUOTE="Rock2, post: 5104491, member: 24300"
Skating to "I can't help falling in love with you" with a girl who just turned 16 is just a let down on so many levels.
[/QUOTE]

The song has always reminded me of Julia Lipnitskaia's SP and I can never watch any other version.

 

[princeton123]

Walsh is clearly going to outgrow Michaud at some point.

I don't know why he keeps getting stuck in these dead-end partnerships. He/his coaches/Skate Canada should be thinking long-term with him. He's got so much potential.

 

[DE93]

It's gonna sound stupid (I clearly don't follow Team Canada like I should), but any relation to Gabby Daleman?

Her younger brother!

 

[Catherine M]

Walsh is clearly going to outgrow Michaud at some point.

I don't know why he keeps getting stuck in these dead-end partnerships. He/his coaches/Skate Canada should be thinking long-term with him. He's got so much potential.

I think the fact that it seems like Trennt obviously wanted to skate juniors internationally the last two seasons is the reason why he is with Walsh as that limits the pool of potential partners since the girls have to be 18 and younger. Plus Evelyn has the great ability to land her jumps and throws--I don't think she missed much last season, which was pretty amazing considering she was new to pairs.

We'll see when he ages out next season if he is open to (1) moving to a new training site and (2) going with a different partner; and agree, Evelyn's growing taller might make his decision for him.

 

[fan]

what about Trennt with Luba if dylan decides to retire?

 

[barbarafan]

I think the fact that it seems like Trennt obviously wanted to skate juniors internationally the last two seasons is the reason why he is with Walsh as that limits the pool of potential partners since the girls have to be 18 and younger. Plus Evelyn has the great ability to land her jumps and throws--I don't think she missed much last season, which was pretty amazing considering she was new to pairs.

We'll see when he ages out next season if he is open to (1) moving to a new training site and (2) going with a different partner; and agree, Evelyn's growing taller might make his decision for him.

If she is 16 she may be done growing. I agree if she grows much taller it could become a problem. If she stays the same he has a very solid secure platform & they have done some beautiful throws and their jumps were very consistant last year.
skating pairs is new to her and last yr she was skating singles as well (don't know about this yr)but her lifts and her twist are really coming along. I don't think he wants to change training centres..he tried out with someone else before Evelyn & they were good but neither of them would change locations so he may really feel strong about this.

 

[DFO]

Juniors:
Like them or not, Walsh/Michaud were in a league apart at Minto. They were the "pro" against the amateurs.

And the Boys-Eddy, were also in another class. A lot of progress since last year. Much more "accomplished". Just needing better jumps.

All the others were a step (a few steps?) behind. This isn't a critic, it's just because they are new pairs or new to this level. A proof that, in the short run, more experienced-less talented pairs will get better results than "single stars" with only a few months of pairs practice.

I was surprised by the podium of Andrew/Knott. Nothing (Knott-ing, ha, ha, ha) particular, just consistency. And a second year of skating together.

Levesque/Hudon are rising fast, Pier-Alexandre had some pairs experience and it's showing. They lost the 3rd step of the podium because of their free. Watch them at the end of the season.

The Frantz are a special case. They doesn't seems to have the ideal shapes of pairs skaters, but they are compensating with a long experience together and a lot of dynamism.

Mc Caw/Addcock did a good free, nearly enough to steal the bronze medal after a bad sp.

Finally, the Schumacher/Daleman duo. I'm sorry. They did a great show because they are good skaters. It's nice watching them. But they didn't look like a pair. They just happened to look like being on the ice at the same time. And their pair elements were... those expected from pre-novice in the early season. Disapointing. They have a long term potential if they stick together , but... will they?

 

[DFO]

Novices:

I think the 2 best novices, McIntosh /Toste and Ripley/Brawley could have compete agains the "other juniors" (I mean, apart from Walsh/Michaud and the Boys-Eddy).The juniors would have taken all the podium steps, but not by a wide margin, especially considering the better Junior index factors in the program components (which is allowing around 2.5 points per program just moving from Novice to Junior with exactly the same performance).

Especially in the short program were Ripley/Brawley did a 33,72, probably worthing around 36,25 if using the junior pcs. It's sad they couldn't repeat their perfomance in the free program. It was interersting, but many, many details cost them points to finish second overall.

McIntosh/Toste got problems in their short but got back on their feet with a really good free. They are young and technically good.

Note that McIntosh /Toste and Perreault/Pierro got better 2A in their free than ALL the juniors apart from Walsh/Michaud. Does that mean good Novices or weak Juniors? Probably a little of both. In the National Summer Series, it says that skaters with 3 or more Junior years eligibility must: In the free program, achieve 1 of the 4 following elements: 1 triple twist, Double Axel, 1 triple jump, 1 throw triple jump. During the competition, a majority of spins, steps, jumps, throws, lifts and death spirals must receive a positive GOE.

Perreault/Pierro got a BAD short but worked hard on their free. Their weak points being the lifts. Their strenght, the jumps. Things are not going to get better for them if they don't get better lifts cause in pairs, that's were the points are. Jumps are important but don't add that much to the scores.

Pouliot/Simard were doing their first pair event together, They both had a little previous pair experience. They are great single skaters for their level and age. They showed their potential with their third place in the short. Their free is not ready. A team to watch, especially at the National (more time to practice…).

Turbide/St-Louis were looking lost in the short. Then they did a great free... until the last minute, were they completely missed their death spiral. They will need more time together.

For Swanson/Ebert, I could paste some comments about Schumacher/Daleman (junior post just before). Nice to Watch, not much pair feelings. Pre-novice pair elements. They need better than that to be competitive this season because the novice level is (will be) high.

So Minto was clearly a practice before the beginning of the season where most Novice skaters got a couple (or more) elements with a big 0 in the score sheet. Just hoping for a return of Forest/Foster which were in close competition with McIntosh/Toste last year.

 

[Catherine M]

I think the 2 best novices, McIntosh /Toste and Ripley/Brawley could have compete agains the "other juniors"

I actually thought that myself when I was watching some of the novice teams that both McIntosh/Toste and Ripley/Brawley were in the wrong field, that they were ready for juniors already.

I know each team and their coaches make the decision that works best for them but I don't see much of a reason to stick around in novice pairs, unless they are gunning for a national title come January.

 

[Erin]

I don't think he wants to change training centres..he tried out with someone else before Evelyn & they were good but neither of them would change locations so he may really feel strong about this.

He skated with Alison Eby for a few months (it wasn't just a tryout) and they split, reportedly over not being able to agree on a training locations. He does appear to feel pretty strongly about staying at his current location, but a lot can change in a few years. If he sees his career stagnate while others are progressing and he starts losing out on opportunities, he may change his tune in the future.

As for why Trennt "keeps getting stuck in these dead-end partnerships", the partnership with Eby last summer had a lot of promise and I wouldn't consider it dead-end. When it ended late in the summer, he had to scramble to get a new partner at the last minute. I think he did pretty well to find Evelyn given those constraints.

I've seen other male partners who were older than Trennt who spent several years of their career in what I would have considered dead-end partnerships too. The best example was probably Eric Radford, who spent years with Rachel Kirkland, who did have many positive attributes (great lifts, could sell a program like no one else) but (a) she was too young for seniors while he was too old for juniors, so he wasn't getting international experience and (b) she could not land a triple jump or often even a double axel. Then he went from her to Anne-Marie Giroux in 2010 and finished even lower at Canadians than he had the year before with Kirkland and I wondered what he was doing with his career. But it all turned out fine in the end. Dylan Moscovitch also spent many years being unable to compete internationally while he skated with his sister, where he had the same issue as Kirkland and Radford, where Kyra was too young for seniors and Dylan was too old for juniors. Then it became clear that Kyra was becoming too tall for pairs and her jumps were becoming less consistent and there didn't seem to be any sign of the team splitting until Kyra decided to retire. Again, Dylan's career eventually worked out fine. And in both of those cases, Dylan and Eric lost the chance for years of international experience, while at least Trennt is getting junior international experience. And Trennt is doing this while he is much younger than Dylan and Eric were. Eric didn't team up with Meagan until he was 25. Dylan teamed up with Kirsten when he was 24. Trennt has time.

 

[DFO]

I actually thought that myself when I was watching some of the novice teams that both McIntosh/Toste and Ripley/Brawley were in the wrong field, that they were ready for juniors already.

I know each team and their coaches make the decision that works best for them but I don't see much of a reason to stick around in novice pairs, unless they are gunning for a national title come January.

Well, both couples were in a tight battle with Forest/Foster and Perreault/Pierro in Pre-novice last year. It's not usual to jump a level at this young age (all the girls but Ripley are 12, Ripley 15, all the boys 16-17). McIntosh/Toste are even still International eligible in Novice. But I don't see any interest in a Novice pairs International event when there is usually just another pair... (if there's one)

On the other hand, I understand why so many Juniors are there while not ready. 1) This is a mid-term/long term goal, 2) They may be junior singles, so it's kind of frustrating to registered in a lower class in pairs.

There will be a lot of opening next year in Junior while many skaters will be too old and move seniors, or need to split to get a younger Partner. Trent Michaud, Lori-Ann Matte and Steven Lapointe will all be moving to senior. The Boys-Eddy are probably going to be junior champs next year, but expect most of the Novices to join the boat.

But you are right. This is a coach decision and many factors may influence that choice.

 

[fan]

Juniors:


Finally, the Schumacher/Daleman duo. I'm sorry. They did a great show because they are good skaters. It's nice watching them. But they didn't look like a pair. They just happened to look like being on the ice at the same time. And their pair elements were... those expected from pre-novice in the early season. Disapointing. They have a long term potential if they stick together , but... will they?

i would preach time and patience here. they're both new to pairs, a good physical match, and have only been skating together since May. They're with Lee Barkell, who certainly knows what he's doing with pairs, and are getting a solid base before they move on to the harder elements. Let's revisit the discussion in 1 year + , they should have a nice pair base.

 

[Rock2]

Juniors:

Finally, the Schumacher/Daleman duo. I'm sorry. They did a great show because they are good skaters. It's nice watching them. But they didn't look like a pair. They just happened to look like being on the ice at the same time. And their pair elements were... those expected from pre-novice in the early season. Disapointing. They have a long term potential if they stick together , but... will they?

Unfair criticism. Both are brand new to pairs so there is no stable partner to bring the other one along.
Plus they have been skating pairs just a few months together. Since both are new to pairs it would be a major goal achieved if they could even stroke the same way and in the same circle at this stage, never mind the elements. Lifting elements especially will take a year or two to look comfortable even at basic levels.

I personally feel they don't look weird on the ice together. Sometimes you just look at a pair (Purich and Tran come to mind, going back in history) and right away you think 'just no', regardless of talent level. As long as both are committed to skating together for approx two years before making any decisions, I say push on.

 

[Rock2]

I'm not focusing too much on Trennt until after this year. So much goes into who he skates with. Maybe he doesn't want move away from home yet. Maybe he has other priorities than his skating career until he hits senior. Maybe the perfect partner isn't there for him to make it worth uprooting his life.

The deck will shuffle after this season. I don't want to toss Evelyn in the ditch because who knows if they decide to continue. Open to whatever works. If someone who is a good match becomes available, that might be enough for him to move and establish himself as a podium-worthy senior in Canada, which should be his target.

The idea of Luba has percolated a number of times on the boards and with good reason. They could be THE pair in Toronto, good height and body type match, both can perform and have great basic stroking and body line. Sbs jumps match, too, as both have 3S and 3T. My gut tells me Trennt can do/learn a 3F or 3Z if you watch his technique although he didn't do either when he skated singles. Luba can't. Could open the door for other partners. I think in the next cycle you would need at least 2 out of 3 of the following: quad twist, quad throw, high value sbs jumps (3/3/2 combo or lutz or flip). He's strong but not huge. He'd need a super tiny girl to get to quad twist. That leaves....

My gut tells me someone will come out of the woodwork and surprise us all as his partner. Could you see Chartrand going to Korea, achieving that goal, then realizing podium isn't in the cards for her on the world stage, causing a switch to pairs? A number of random crazy things can happen. Will wait to see how it all pans out.

 

[DFO]

@Rock2, I respect your opinions. I tried to say thing as they were, the more politely possible. But mostly facts.

I also said I liked to watch them and i wish they will stay together. My only "bad" comments was the level of the pair elements they did. I'm used to watch new pairs and after only 3 or 4 month together they are usually doing a 1Tw2 or a 2Tw1. Pouliot/Simard (short) and Turbide/St-Louis (free) did it in Novice this year. They are new pairs with minimal pair experience (Pouliot was in juvenile pairs with another partner, Simard did a year of pre-novice 3 years ago, Turbide was in pre-novice for a year and St-Louis is new) All the pre-novice did 1Tw2 or 1Tw1 (in both programs) in Minto last year, even the ones working together for only a few months and new to pairs (Roy/Guay and Forest/Foster). We are talking about mid-ranking juveniles kids, not junior champions. I was expecting a little more. I just says it was disapointing, especially for Juniors. But I'm the first to admit if they stick together long enough they may become really competitive since they have great individual skills.

It was just the opening event of the season. Maybe my expectations were too high...

I'm sorry if I cause any bad feeling to Schumacher, Daleman or their fan club. It was not my intention. I'm happy to see the more pairs possible. But if you consider my comments as critics, then the detailed sheet was also a critic!

 

[cdn skate fan]

I think this is all kind of unfair to both Schumacher/Daleman and the kids who are working away in prenovice and novice. You can't really say "well the twist is a difficult element and it's understandable that a junior team can't do it after only a few months" without also saying, "WOW, look at these novice kids who are doing a double twist after only a few months!" DFO has a good point here.
I know that a lot of people are excited about S/D but I wonder if the expectations (from pairs fans) are way too high, too soon. Sure they are really good singles skaters. We know that they have some transferable skills and a great work ethic. BUT...that doesn't mean that their pairs stuff will or won't be really good. They might not even enjoy doing pairs at all. Who knows? Too early to say in my opinion!