Canadian Men 2018-19 season news & updates

ChiquitaBanana

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Interesting that the La Presse writer in the Phan article above would later (in the same article) discuss and speculate on Gogolev's future after growth spurts.
I don’t see anything bad considering Gogolev is a contender for the title. Thr article is about junior worlds...
 

barbarafan

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Interesting that the La Presse writer in the Phan article above would later (in the same article) discuss and speculate on Gogolev's future after growth spurts.
A bit weird...But if he is not really in the know and read about Russian wonder kids who then grow and lose it or they injured and train on fragile bones etc.so think the same thing is happening. The thing is Stephen has been growing a long time...He used to come up to his competitor's waist. His growing is going slow and his technique is adjusted each time. Because this is a dangerous time for athletes he is very limited on how much jumping he is allowed and quads are often off the table for periods of time....Meantime a great deal of strenghtheing exercise is done. Maybe La Presse should have speculated on what he will look like when he is finished growing and he gets stronger so his power and speed on the ice doubles and he is allowed to train jumps as the competition does.
 

fsfann

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Two questions re Stephen Gogolev...

Can someone explain why he wouldn't just do a 4T in the short program? It's a very solid jump for him, and I think (?) he has been attempting a 4Lutz in the SP? The strategy just doesn't make sense to me...

Also - I read somewhere that he is no longer with Brian Orser, but I don't remember seeing that on here, so I'm assuming that isn't true? Can anyone confirm?
 

Colonel Green

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Two questions re Stephen Gogolev...

Can someone explain why he wouldn't just do a 4T in the short program? It's a very solid jump for him, and I think (?) he has been attempting a 4Lutz in the SP? The strategy just doesn't make sense to me...

Also - I read somewhere that he is no longer with Brian Orser, but I don't remember seeing that on here, so I'm assuming that isn't true? Can anyone confirm?
1) Internationally he doesn't do a quad in the short, because that's not allowed. Domestically he does the 4S in his short program.

2) Stephen was always coached by Orser and Lee Barkell, but midseason he switched to being coached only by Barkell. Reportedly his parents felt that Orser wasn't spending enough time on him and so there wasn't much point in paying him.
 

kalamalka

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Juniors aren't allowed to do quads in the short, and the only senior competition Gogolev did this year was nationals. He is still at Cricket Club, but I think previously had both Orser and Barkell (I know both were with him way back when he won pre-novice Challenge as a 9 year old) as coaches, but now it's just Barkell. Apparently his parents' choice earlier in this season.
 

barbarafan

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Two questions re Stephen Gogolev...

Can someone explain why he wouldn't just do a 4T in the short program? It's a very solid jump for him, and I think (?) he has been attempting a 4Lutz in the SP? The strategy just doesn't make sense to me...

Also - I read somewhere that he is no longer with Brian Orser, but I don't remember seeing that on here, so I'm assuming that isn't true? Can anyone confirm?
He just turned 14 so he can only compete junior international for a million yrs so he can't do quads in the short.

He moved to one of the other coaches at TCC Lee Barkell just before JGP final.
 

fsfann

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Wow, thanks everyone! I didn't realize that they couldn't do quads in the SP... (Not a big follower of Juniors).

Also - sounds like it makes sense re Orser if they were paying big bucks but not getting the attention they felt he deserved. Hopefully the door is still open for him to return once he is a bit older maybe?

Thanks again!
 

RoseRed

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Wow, thanks everyone! I didn't realize that they couldn't do quads in the SP... (Not a big follower of Juniors).

Also - sounds like it makes sense re Orser if they were paying big bucks but not getting the attention they felt he deserved. Hopefully the door is still open for him to return once he is a bit older maybe?

Thanks again!
I wouldn't be surprised if Brian is back listed as a coach when Stephen goes senior. I get the sense that Brian still wants to work with him for sure.
 

barbarafan

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I wouldn't be surprised if Brian is back listed as a coach when Stephen goes senior. I get the sense that Brian still wants to work with him for sure.
Brian is directer of the club so all is organized by himself with Tracy's help. He will still have everything there he needs. I am sure it was a kick in the teeth for Brian but his main focus is the kids themselves. He has already taught Stephen all his quads so it is now maintenance, practice and tweaking due to growing.
 

screech

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Also - sounds like it makes sense re Orser if they were paying big bucks but not getting the attention they felt he deserved. Hopefully the door is still open for him to return once he is a bit older maybe?
IIRC Brian said the issue was that he had underestimated how much of his time would be taken up by Evgenia (that she had no idea how to actually train in a practice session), so that he unintentionally neglected his other students to try to help her to learn how to work independently when the coach is with someone else. Can't remember which interview it was, though.
 

manhn

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How is that possible? Evgenia trained with way more skaters in Russia, and who were more direct competition. Steven or Yuzo are hardly direct competition for Evgenia. Did Eteri spend all of her time with Evgenia, and ignore her other pupils?
 

RoseRed

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How is that possible? Evgenia trained with way more skaters in Russia, and who were more direct competition. Steven or Yuzo are hardly direct competition for Evgenia. Did Eteri spend all of her time with Evgenia, and ignore her other pupils?
In Russia, I believe she's said they never really had time where they were expected to work on their own. They do group work while constantly supervised by the coaches (I think). Whereas at TCC, it sounds like they do short individual sessions with coaches, and then are expected to practice on their own.

It's not about how many skaters they train with - it's more about completely different styles.
 

greenapple

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Brian is directer of the club so all is organized by himself with Tracy's help. He will still have everything there he needs. I am sure it was a kick in the teeth for Brian but his main focus is the kids themselves. He has already taught Stephen all his quads so it is now maintenance, practice and tweaking due to growing.
Brian AND Tracy are the directors at the Cricket Club. Tracy is not his assistant. She was the person the CC first asked to run their skating division and she talked Brian into doing it with her. Both make the decisions together.
https://torontocricketclub.com/skating
 
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Skaters trained in the Russian system expect the coach to tell them what to do and how much, and they also train in groups. Typically in NA, skaters are given lessons, but coaches like Carroll would ask them what they needed and what they wanted to work on, and between lessons, they were expected to work on things on their own, while the coach is with someone else.

Denis Ten spoke about this, and, most recently, Alexei Krosnazhon spoke about this with Jackie Wong on this week's ice talk podcast
 
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jiejie

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He’s still at TCC but he works with Lee Barkell full time now.
Stephen was always coached by Orser and Lee Barkell, but midseason he switched to being coached only by Barkell. Reportedly his parents felt that Orser wasn't spending enough time on him and so there wasn't much point in paying him.
Also - sounds like it makes sense re Orser if they were paying big bucks but not getting the attention they felt he deserved. Hopefully the door is still open for him to return once he is a bit older maybe?
Lee Barkell is an outstanding coach in his own right. Please, let's not make it seem like turning to him is some sort of booby prize when Brian Orser is booked too heavily/isn't available. IMO he's one of North America's top coaches even though more low-key and not the household name of Orser, Carroll, Zakrajsek, etc.
 

mag

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Skaters trained in the Russian system expect the coach to tell them what to do and how much, and they also train in groups. Typically in NA, skaters are given lessons, but coaches like Carroll would ask them what they needed and what they wanted to work on, and between lessons, they were expected to work on things on their own, while the coach is with someone else.

Denis Ten spoke about this, and, most recently, Alexei Krosnazhon spoke about this with Jackie Wong on this week's ice talk podcast
In my experience this is not completely accurate. In North America the head coach does not generally ask the skater what they want to work on. There may be some may be some discussion if something was not working well prior to the lesson, but for the most part the coach sets the lessons (number, length, intervals, content) and then also tells the skater if there are specific things they need to work on during practice time (run the second section of your long three times with no spins, and then do a full run through, or something like that.)

It is more that once skaters reach the elite level, and even before, they are expected to know how to warm up and how to practice when they are not in a lesson. For example, if my dd had second lesson, she knew what warm up stroking to do and then she knew if she wanted to work on a new triple, she needed to get through 2A and her other triples cleanly (warm up jump, in program sections (if it was a short program session then short program sections) prior to her lesson. If it was during the competitive season, she would also run her program so lesson time wasn’t taken up with that. That said, again, the head coach may say that the program needs to be run in the lesson that day.

I think it is more that NA Skaters are generally supervised the whole time and told specifically what to do in each minute of practice. That said, I have seen some skaters who spend there entire day in private lessons to that is not unheard of in NA (although those are generally not elite skaters)
 

Colonel Green

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Lee Barkell is an outstanding coach in his own right. Please, let's not make it seem like turning to him is some sort of booby prize when Brian Orser is booked too heavily/isn't available.
None of the posts you cited were suggesting that.

It’s simply a fact that Orser used to be part of his coaching team and isn’t now.
 

googooeyes

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I mean, I definitely was just stating a fact that he was still at TCC but (having moved from BO as his primary coach) that his current coach was LB.
It kind of seems like BO is focusing more on the international skaters at the Toronto Cricket Club and LB on the Canadian ones, but who knows.
 

Dobre

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I just think it makes perfect sense that a younger athlete might not yet need to pay the full load for a coach that is also working with a couple World/Olympic Champions, and might pay for just one coach--the one that happens to be working with him/her the most at this stage of his/her development.
 

barbarafan

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It kind of seems like BO is focusing more on the international skaters at the Toronto Cricket Club and LB on the Canadian ones, but who knows.
International skaters came to him first....not Canadians. now a few are coming.Some are family members of the club. I think he focuses more on skill level. If a skater has at all what is necessary(talent,build,focus, good work ethic etc) in their wheelhouse to do triple axels and quads he will guide them to their utmost. Many wonderful skaters do not have all of those things so there is only so far he can take them and all the coaches there are great so he never tries to keep milking the cow he is upfront with the kids and/or the parents.
 

WildRose

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I just think it makes perfect sense that a younger athlete might not yet need to pay the full load for a coach that is also working with a couple World/Olympic Champions, and might pay for just one coach--the one that happens to be working with him/her the most at this stage of his/her development.
I believe the Cricket Club uses a Team Coaching system. Our Club does the same. Coaches charge by the amount of time they spend with the skater on lessons. For example $18 for a 15 minute lesson. Their rate depends upon what level Coach they are, and of course Brian would be at the highest level. (Skaters also pay Club fees that include group sessions, ice time, off ice etc.). Skaters have a head coach, and the head coach makes the decisions about the amount of lesson time they receive, practice time, group sessions, etc. The head coach also arranges for other coaches on the team to work with their skaters, off ice harness work, choreographers, approves music and costuming, arranges for fitness classes, and brings in outside experts. They meet with the parents and decide on competitions and other events and plan the skaters overall development.
It sounds like Brian just didn’t have enough time to to be his head coach so they decided to switch to Lee. Seems sensible, and that doesn’t mean that Brian isn’t still giving him some lessons - or even filling in when Lee is travelling with his other skaters, but Lee is now in charge of his overall training.
 
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screech

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In my experience this is not completely accurate. In North America the head coach does not generally ask the skater what they want to work on. There may be some may be some discussion if something was not working well prior to the lesson, but for the most part the coach sets the lessons (number, length, intervals, content) and then also tells the skater if there are specific things they need to work on during practice time (run the second section of your long three times with no spins, and then do a full run through, or something like that.)
...

I think it is more that NA Skaters are generally supervised the whole time and told specifically what to do in each minute of practice. That said, I have seen some skaters who spend there entire day in private lessons to that is not unheard of in NA (although those are generally not elite skaters)
Maybe it is in some places, but that's not my experience in NA. I generally had 15 minute lessons with my coach (1-2 per day), which usually included a program run through, and then I worked on my own for the rest of the time. My coach did not guide the remainder of my practice (except occasionally telling me to focus on one thing or another, or to leave a particular element). From my own experience, I knew what elements I should work on, and knew when to move on. and in a training session with many other skaters, it's rare to see skaters doing run-throughs repeatedly of their program, since others are doing theirs as well. We had an order for programs with music (unless a coach interrupted the order to see their student do a run through), and other than your one (maybe two) times per session, you didn't really do your program, as the one whose turn it was got precedence, and you were expected to stay out of their way.
 

googooeyes

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Maybe it is in some places, but that's not my experience in NA. I generally had 15 minute lessons with my coach (1-2 per day), which usually included a program run through, and then I worked on my own for the rest of the time. My coach did not guide the remainder of my practice (except occasionally telling me to focus on one thing or another, or to leave a particular element). From my own experience, I knew what elements I should work on, and knew when to move on. and in a training session with many other skaters, it's rare to see skaters doing run-throughs repeatedly of their program, since others are doing theirs as well. We had an order for programs with music (unless a coach interrupted the order to see their student do a run through), and other than your one (maybe two) times per session, you didn't really do your program, as the one whose turn it was got precedence, and you were expected to stay out of their way.
This is also my experience, and pretty common in Canada.
 

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