Canadian Ice Dance 2016-17 season news & updates

[VGThuy]

I've never heard it mentioned on air. And it's not mentioned in her online CBC bio:http://www.cbc.ca/mediacentre/carol-lane.html#.V4hKraLni68

Here's their SD at Worlds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVR6lnGLM58

Around 1:36, Lane talks about changing the music after 4CC and then goes on about fixing some of the tech issues. Then around 4:10, Kurt says it must be hard as a coach to watch your team, and she responds. And then at 4:30 they explicitly state that she's their coach, as is her husband.

 

[kwanfan1818]

We didn't see a whole flood of Russian pairs teams splitting immediately after Volosozhar & Trankov announced their return, and there's a lot of depth in Russian pairs skating.

There wasn't a definite 1-2-3 in Russia when V/T came back. Stolbova/Klimov had their struggles, and Kavaguti/Smirnov had their injuries. There were a lot of teams fighting for that last spot, and there was hope.

With V/M, W/P, and G/P competing, especially with Skate Canada's love for Poirier, the fight is for Olympic year 4C's, unless there is an injury or highly unusual circumstances.

 

[Skate Talker]

Well personally I am not having a problem with Carol commentating and have heard them state her connection to the dancers numerous times. I think if anything it might be causing her to hold back on pointing out positives in their skating - she seems to mention more how they will be feeling about their skate than what they did right.

Commentating is designed to give insight to the viewers - it isn't judging and giving marks so for me conflict of interest doesn't come into play. I so much prefer someone who knows what they are talking about. Personally I found CTV's Rod Black and his infatuation with Elvis to be more of a problem than anything any of the other Canadian commentators have had to say, past or present. That was sickening enough that it tainted my enjoyment of Elvis's skating. I mean I never was a major fan of his skating style but I had admired his technical abilities, his work ethic, and his staying-true-to-himself style. Rod pretty near destroyed all that. It even took a couple of years after Elvis's retirement for Rod to stop going on about him at every opportunity.

So anyway, back to the current CBC situation. Even though I don't have a particular problem with Carol, I would love, love, love to see them bring PJ Kwong on board with the on-air team. Her talents are so wasted with the on-line chats. Of course it could be that PJ prefers not be in front of the cameras and continually subject to the kind of on-line griping, (just like what is currently happening here to Carol), and if so I begrudgingly would have to accept that. I just so miss her wonderful insights and full coverage of every skater - that was heaven and I treasure every captured vid.

 

[emilieh]

I don't have a problem with Lane's commentary for Gilles/Poirier. I think it's only natural for a coach to have biased comments about her own team. These are people that she has to look in the eye & continue coaching a few days (or even a few hours) later. Granted, I think Tracy Wilson succeeds in appearing more unbiased for skaters that she works with, but then again, Wilson also has many more years of training and experience in broadcasts.

I do have a problem with Lane's commentary for other teams, particularly teams that she perceives to be along the same tier as Gilles/Poirier. I think she has more responsibility to curtail her bias there, but she doesn't.

I think that public perception is important, especially in a sport that is losing serious viewers and fans. My husband likes watching skating with me, but he hates most of the commentators and says that if I'm not home, he's more likely to change the channel because of the stupid things they say, not because he gets bored with the skating.

 

[VGThuy]

As I said earlier, I was surprised, after I found out it was Carol Lane commentating, at how positive she is about the Shibs, saying that she thinks they are two of the best technicians in the business, even though at the time she made those comments, they were pretty neck-in-neck with Gilles/Poirier for world standing.

 

[Impromptu]

For that matter, after reading this thread, it got me curious to see what "terrible" and "abusive" things she said about V&M returning, so I found the CBC broadcast on youtube.

Basically, the CBC host first asked Kurt Browning his thoughts and he said that they were very competitive (Lane, "yes") and they've still got the legs to do it (Lane nods) and they still have something to say and so good for them (Lane nods again). The host then asked Lane, what it would mean on the national scene and Lane responded, that it "could mean less funding and less international competitions for some teams, which might have far reaching ramifications, but as Kurt says, they've got something to prove and they want to do it."

 

[Anemone]

I have no problem with Carol Lane commenting - as someone upthread said, she isn't judging or giving marks. I will admit that I find it puzzling why she would want to commentate instead of being at the boards coaching her teams as they are competing, but that is her decision to make not mine.
I would absolutely love to see CBC use PJ Kwong much more though. Those couple seasons where they aired every skater of every event on CBC Bold with PJ commentating were some of the best.

 

[Dobre]

There wasn't a definite 1-2-3 in Russia when V/T came back. Stolbova/Klimov had their struggles, and Kavaguti/Smirnov had their injuries. There were a lot of teams fighting for that last spot, and there was hope.

With V/M, W/P, and G/P competing, especially with Skate Canada's love for Poirier, the fight is for Olympic year 4C's, unless there is an injury or highly unusual circumstances.

Russian pairs results in 2015:
Tarasova & Morozov-5th
Kavaguti & Smirnov-6th, 1st at Europeans
Astakhova & Roganov-10th
Stolbova & Klimov-2nd at Europeans, 2nd at the GPF, (2nd at the Olympics)

Volosozhar & Trankov-Gold at the Olympics


Canadian ice dance results in 2016:
Weaver & Poje-5th
Gilles & Poirier-8th
Paradis & Ouellette-23rd
Paul & Islam-6th at Skate Canada (13th at 2015 Worlds)

Virtue & Moir-Silver at the Olympics



I get the same sense as the one you have implied, though. That in Canada there is suddenly no hope.

Why not? If you look at these teams individually, with respect to their careers in dance; rather than as a group vying only for an Olympic berth, then why shouldn't they have cause for hope?

1. There is a possible berth on the World team available in 2018. (Do we really think W&P and V&M are going to both go fight this out at Worlds after one of them comes ahead in the Olympics?) Yes, Paul & Islam are there, but they were there last season so I don't see that V&M's return has changed things regarding the fight for that spot at Worlds.

2. Delmaestro & Lum were just up out of juniors last season. Did they have hope for the 2018 Olympics before? One would think they were looking at that 4CC spot already. Perhaps it was the reality of this first senior season that impacted them, but shouldn't they have been looking farther ahead to the future? And there is a LOT of cause for hope post 2018.

3. Poulin & Servant had only been out of juniors two seasons. My response is the same as above.

4. Orford & Hill just teamed up. They won a competition in their first year together. All that time and work, and they are ready to scrap it after one year?

5. Paradis & Ouellette broke through onto the World team for Pete's sake! (Methinks Moskvina would say this is worth "sticking around." And perhaps they are. Perhaps this is just a mysterious summer "break" a la Stolbova & Klimov in 2015).

The highest ranked Canadian junior team chasing any of these athletes placed 9th at Junior Worlds last season. Bent & Razgulajevs will improve as they have more time as a team, but this is not a huge threat here. (In comparison, the U.S. has 6 Junior Dance teams who outscored them on the JGP this season). So, again, the path post 2018 is absolutely reachable. (And suddenly a whole lot more reachable for B&R).

I just think all of these teams had cause for hope. So why do they not feel that the path to post 2018 is possible? If the change is really monetary, perhaps something can be done here? It takes longer to reach the top in dance. If Canada wishes to maintain the quality of its current dance program, then long-term depth is important.


Note: I think Edwards & Pang had even more potential, but this departure really feels injury-related.

 

[Meteorlight]

This thread is so depressing! So mad at Virtue/Moir for coming back. It's like they sucked the hope out of Canadian Dance.

While I'm also sad for all the Canadian dance splits, esp. Edwards/Pang, who I had been following the last several seasons, I think it's ridiculous and frankly, extremely unsportsmanlike, to whine and blame Virtue/Moir for their comeback (and I say this as someone who's really NOT that enamored by V/M as people -- still like their skating though).

First of all, V/M still ARE Canada's best hope for 2018, IMO (unless/until they prove otherwise in their return debut - hopefully not!) ... They've only been out two seasons (yes some things have changed but not radically so) and are still young (younger than Weaper/Poje, respectively) -- they are not some has-been team who's back and only banking on reputation to keep them afloat (based on V/T comeback at worlds - the reputation will only get you so far these days). If they still have the goods (and I believe they will) to be tops in Canadian dance and can legitimately lock up an Olympic berth, then what difference does it make to the "tier 2 teams" whether it's V/M or some other breakout team that takes their spot? I guess the only difference I see is that V/M comes with advance notice for the Tier 2 teams that they most likely won't be able to compete on merit, but the end result is the same in terms of Canada ending up better off with the more competitive team.

It is quite unfortunate for all of Canada's dance talents that the field is so deep (though sidebar - the US depth is even more intense!), and I don't blame anyone for retiring thinking that there's now no chance for 2018. Still, that chance was super slim anyway given all the competition ... maybe some of the retirees should thank V/M for saving them wasted time and energy if 2018 was their ultimate and only goal? I kid, but the point I'm trying to make is, V/M's comeback might be a catalyst or one of the considerations of these retirement evaluations, but I don't believe it's the direct cause (the time commitment, funding and/or other challenges must already be in play). The E/P split, for example, I feel like has more to do with her injuries -- they were a VERY long shot for 2018.

If V/M can still compete (again, I'm choosing to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary), why should they be belittled for doing so?? If the youngsters want that Olympic spot they need to improve, bring it and beat them (or at least G/P )! That's the essence (and beauty) of Sports!

 

[overedge]

I don't have a problem with Lane's commentary for Gilles/Poirier. I think it's only natural for a coach to have biased comments about her own team.

But the issue is whether she should be commenting at all, given that she's the primary coach of one of the teams she's assigned to cover at competitions. Regardless of whether she's biased or not against her own team or their competitors, IMHO it looks like a conflict of interest. And she hasn't disclosed her connection to P/G on every broadcast, and, as I earlier linked, not on her CBC bio page either.

I remember people getting all bent out of shape, and rightly so IMHO, when Sandra Bezic was providing commentary on programs that she choreographed without acknowledging that she'd created those programs. And NBC as far as I know never acknowledged Bezic's participation in those programs. Maybe CBC is doing better than NBC in occasionally acknowledging Lane's coaching connections, but it's still a tricky situation that I don't think has been handled particularly admirably. (I mean that in terms of CBC's decision to hire Lane and its downplaying of her connections, not in terms of how Lane comments on P/G or on their competitors.)

I just think all of these teams had cause for hope. So why do they not feel that the path to post 2018 is possible? If the change is really monetary, perhaps something can be done here? It takes longer to reach the top in dance. If Canada wishes to maintain the quality of its current dance program, then long-term depth is important.

Something *could* have been done monetarily, but as it stands several of these teams have retired or broken up, and have probably moved on with their lives. I don't know that giving them money at this point is going to make any difference. And FWIW I would guess that the money they would have received from Skate Canada wouldn't have covered all of their costs. Post-2018 is a reasonable goal, true, but that still means the skaters have to be able to afford to stay in the sport until that time. And maybe some of them couldn't.

 

[Dobre]

Something *could* have been done monetarily, but as it stands several of these teams have retired or broken up, and have probably moved on with their lives. I don't know that giving them money at this point is going to make any difference. And FWIW I would guess that the money they would have received from Skate Canada wouldn't have covered all of their costs. Post-2018 is a reasonable goal, true, but that still means the skaters have to be able to afford to stay in the sport until that time. And maybe some of them couldn't.

Worth recognizing and acknowledging now, though, if this is the case. If something *could* have been done, then it can be done for teams in the present and teams in the future.

Meanwhile, I hope someone will team back up with Payten Howland. She has spunk.

 

[overedge]

Worth recognizing and acknowledging now, though, if this is the case. If something *could* have been done, then it can be done for teams in the present and teams in the future.

Sure, the offer of $$$ could be made, but if skaters have already made other plans for their future, they might not accept the offer. I honestly doubt that an offer now is going to make that much difference at this point for teams who have decided to split or retire. Not to mention that if parents or others were financing the team on top of whatever funding the team was receiving, those people might have made other plans for the money they otherwise would have spent on supporting on the team.

Hopefully Skate Canada will learn from this experience and think more about long-term development of lower-ranked teams, if a situation like this ever arises again.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The question is whether they would have gone on with their lives if the money was there, especially the younger teams.

It will be interesting to see who's around post-2018.

 

[barbarafan]

Russian pairs results in 2015:
Tarasova & Morozov-5th
Kavaguti & Smirnov-6th, 1st at Europeans
Astakhova & Roganov-10th
Stolbova & Klimov-2nd at Europeans, 2nd at the GPF, (2nd at the Olympics)

Volosozhar & Trankov-Gold at the Olympics


Canadian ice dance results in 2016:
Weaver & Poje-5th
Gilles & Poirier-8th
Paradis & Ouellette-23rd
Paul & Islam-6th at Skate Canada (13th at 2015 Worlds)

Virtue & Moir-Silver at the Olympics



I get the same sense as the one you have implied, though. That in Canada there is suddenly no hope.

Why not? If you look at these teams individually, with respect to their careers in dance; rather than as a group vying only for an Olympic berth, then why shouldn't they have cause for hope?

1. There is a possible berth on the World team available in 2018. (Do we really think W&P and V&M are going to both go fight this out at Worlds after one of them comes ahead in the Olympics?) Yes, Paul & Islam are there, but they were there last season so I don't see that V&M's return has changed things regarding the fight for that spot at Worlds.

2. Delmaestro & Lum were just up out of juniors last season. Did they have hope for the 2018 Olympics before? One would think they were looking at that 4CC spot already. Perhaps it was the reality of this first senior season that impacted them, but shouldn't they have been looking farther ahead to the future? And there is a LOT of cause for hope post 2018.

3. Poulin & Servant had only been out of juniors two seasons. My response is the same as above.

4. Orford & Hill just teamed up. They won a competition in their first year together. All that time and work, and they are ready to scrap it after one year?

5. Paradis & Ouellette broke through onto the World team for Pete's sake! (Methinks Moskvina would say this is worth "sticking around." And perhaps they are. Perhaps this is just a mysterious summer "break" a la Stolbova & Klimov in 2015).

The highest ranked Canadian junior team chasing any of these athletes placed 9th at Junior Worlds last season. Bent & Razgulajevs will improve as they have more time as a team, but this is not a huge threat here. (In comparison, the U.S. has 6 Junior Dance teams who outscored them on the JGP this season). So, again, the path post 2018 is absolutely reachable. (And suddenly a whole lot more reachable for B&R).

I just think all of these teams had cause for hope. So why do they not feel that the path to post 2018 is possible? If the change is really monetary, perhaps something can be done here? It takes longer to reach the top in dance. If Canada wishes to maintain the quality of its current dance program, then long-term depth is important.


Note: I think Edwards & Pang had even more potential, but this departure really feels injury-related.

g/p are lane's babies and that is who she has decided should be in the top 3. Orford and HIll and Poulin & Servant are also Lane's teams and in some peoples mind's they could possibly move ahead of G/P. Much safer if they do not compete.

 

[VGThuy]

You think Lane actively encouraged them to call it quits? That doesn't make sense to me because I would think she likes making money.

 

[manhn]

Yes, because the Mozer camp is so functional and happy-go-lucky.

 

[Dobre]

Hopefully Skate Canada will learn from this experience and think more about long-term development of lower-ranked teams, if a situation like this ever arises again.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. But not "if' the situation arises again. Now. For those teams who are skating. Or at least to put the infrastructure into place for dance teams that meet a promising criteria.

 

[barbarafan]

You think Lane actively encouraged them to call it quits? That doesn't make sense to me because I would think she likes making money.

She has foreign teams and lots of juniors and lower ranking teams which are not a threat to G/P.

 

[overedge]

Yes, this is what I'm saying. But not "if' the situation arises again. Now. For those teams who are skating. Or at least to put the infrastructure into place for dance teams that meet a promising criteria.

I don't think there's a lot that can be done now for the teams that have already decided to quit. And since SC is struggling with a financial deficit and staff layoffs, I also don't think it's too likely (unfortunately) that SC is going to see the value in making more investments in the teams that are remaining.

Quite honestly, it seems like SC's long-term development strategy is to hope it gets awarded Worlds in 2020 and to hope that there are enough high-profile Canadian competitors left by then to make $$$$ on the event. Which is a lot of "ifs" IMHO.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Russian pairs results in 2015:
Tarasova & Morozov-5th
Kavaguti & Smirnov-6th, 1st at Europeans
Astakhova & Roganov-10th
Stolbova & Klimov-2nd at Europeans, 2nd at the GPF, (2nd at the Olympics)

Volosozhar & Trankov-Gold at the Olympics

The two main things about Russian Pairs are that it wasn't clear that the top three -- Volosozhar/Trankov, Kavaguti/Smirnov, and Stolbova/Klimov -- would stay in or could stay in in any given year, and for the up-and-coming young teams, there's funding in there for them to stay and wait for 2022, while they have found opportunities to compete at championships because the Top Three didn't compete.

As long as they stay healthy, V/M, W/P, and G/P are pretty much a lock for the top three spots on the 2017 and 2018 Canadian Nationals podium, and none of them seem to lack motivation or are ambivalent.

 

[mirage]

As long as they stay healthy, V/M, W/P, and G/P are pretty much a lock for the top three spots on the 2017 and 2018 Canadian Nationals podium, and none of them seem to lack motivation or are ambivalent.

Exactly why I prefer watching skiing. Always a possibility of a lower ranked athlete winning. Exciting!

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah but then you'd have to watch skiing.

J/K, I remember actually enjoying watching the skiing events while waiting for skating to come on during the Olympics (not the ski jumping as much, though the position in the air is pretty amazing and how they land it).

 

[supergirl573]

Not to be rude or offensive, but it's not Virtue & Moir's fault that they are better than the rest of skaters in their country. They've all had their chance while V/M were gone, and they couldn't capitalize appropriately. When you look at the ages of the other teams, you see that they are not exactly young either, so what exactly were they doing with their time?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Who said anything about fault? The other skaters had to assess the feasibility of their goals and weigh the money, time, effort, and sacrifices they put into their skating to decide whether it was worth it with V/M back in the mix. Many clearly decided to go on with their lives.

 

[VGThuy]

Right, it's not assigning fault to just recognize that V/M's comeback played a part into many teams' decision to retire or break up, even if in some cases it just made them recognize the fact that they'll never make the Olympic/World/4CC team sooner rather than later, so why continue to put in all of your time and all of your resources into it and make your body go through that stress.

To me, I am sad that a beautiful team like Orford/Hill who may have been a wild card for the third spot felt compelled to retire when it became clear (to them) that they at best could only look forward to an Olympic year 4CC spot and maybe a World spot after post-Olympic withdrawals, and I guess they couldn't wait past 2018 due to lack of resources among other things. But that's sport.

 

[Dobre]

Not to be rude or offensive, but it's not Virtue & Moir's fault that they are better than the rest of skaters in their country.

Were better than the rest in their country. They may be now, but the field does not stand still and they will still be up against the current Grand Prix Champions. We will have to see this battle play out on the ice. (And there's good potential to see it play out on neutral ground at this season's GPF).

 

[marbri]

Um, they have been called selfish and greedy, at least, within this thread so some people were assigning fault to them for the present situation. If you weren't one of them then ignore it but that poster didn't imagine it.

 

[centerpt1]

I am not saying V/M are greedy or at fault for coming back. They have every right to do so. But...I can still be mad that their return has apparently caused several teams I enjoy watching to call it quits. It's a sport-you can choose to play or not play.

 

[pani]

I am not saying V/M are greedy or at fault for coming back. They have every right to do so. But...I can still be mad that their return has apparently caused several teams I enjoy watching to call it quits. It's a sport-you can choose to play or not play.

They quit because of WP, GP and PI, who are all time SC darlings and nobody could take there place.
Will Bent-Razgulyaevs compete in juniors?

 

[marbri]

I am not saying V/M are greedy or at fault for coming back. They have every right to do so. But...I can still be mad that their return has apparently caused several teams I enjoy watching to call it quits. It's a sport-you can choose to play or not play.

You are more than free and have every right to be mad at your own assumptions.
I'm old and tired so save my anger energy for facts.