Bobrova and Soloviev out of Worlds

[morqet]

Olympic short track speed skating champion Semion Elistratov tests positive for doping. No points for guessing country + substance.

 

[hanca]

For everyone who is such an expert about enhancing drugs, this is from the person who invented the drug in question. http://vazel.blog.lemonde.fr/2016/0...r-du-meldonium-ce-nest-pas-un-produit-dopant/

 

[MorganaLefay]

From Bobrova's interviews and reactions it's clear that (i) athletes on Team Russia do not make their own decisions in terms of medications, (ii) are closely supervised by doctors who are willing to give them substances that have not been officially banned (and in this case, a mistake was made either through an honest error or in the worst case, by someone's evil design), (iii) if a doctor says it's OK and the drug is not patently on the prohibited list, an athlete is not expected/required to do further "soul searching" on whether it's illegal doping. This is why Bobrova, who always strikes me as the most conscientious (her Olympic charity), hard-working (that's a known about that team) and smart (from the way she expresses herself) of the Russian skaters did not hide the fact that she took some drugs that she thought were legal, did not take the second test and did not claim ignorance of the fact that M drug was banned. She also did not even try to say, like Sharapova, that she was taking the drugs for some heart related illness. I think it's tragic that a very good person like Bobrova is put in this horrible situation by her Federation--I blame only the Russian sports establishment for this, and this has to change (but highly unlikely that it ever will).

 

[MarieM]

I am still not happy about this
But Bobrova isn't really bright.

 

[Kultakissu]

For everyone who is such an expert about enhancing drugs, this is from the person who invented the drug in question. http://vazel.blog.lemonde.fr/2016/0...r-du-meldonium-ce-nest-pas-un-produit-dopant/

That makes it even worse. These poor athletes have been taking this drug in the belief that it would enhance their performance, and it turns out it was a snake oil of a dope all along. Careers down the drain for a placebo!

 

[RomyNL]

Just a quick question: is this drug in question a beta-blocker? Any connection to performance anxieties?

 

[Ananas Astra]

What a "great" Maslenitsa present for Bobrova.
When will the exact consequences be known?

 

[jiejie]

First time back on FSU in a number of days and I see this.

In all this thread, I haven't seen a definitive answer to one question: in 2016, do Russian skaters have or not have the right to tell Team doctors who want to give them something (injection, pills, etc.) "No" and have that be honored without causing them negative repercussions with the Team/Federation? I'm sure I know what the "official" Russian Fed answer would be, I'm looking for the inside reality of the situation.

 

[hanca]

First time back on FSU in a number of days and I see this.

In all this thread, I haven't seen a definitive answer to one question: in 2016, do Russian skaters have or not have the right to tell Team doctors who want to give them something (injection, pills, etc.) "No" and have that be honored without causing them negative repercussions with the Team/Federation? I'm sure I know what the "official" Russian Fed answer would be, I'm looking for the inside reality of the situation.

I think the question is not whether Bobrova had the chance to accept or refuse, but the question is whether the doctor did or did not misinformed her about what he gave her. It seems that as far as she was aware, she was going to get something that was perfectly legal. So was it honest mistake from the doctor, or did the doctor make her believe it is the medication she gave him while giving her something else?

 

[jiejie]

I think the question is not whether Bobrova had the chance to accept or refuse, but the question is whether the doctor did or did not misinformed her about what he gave her. It seems that as far as she was aware, she was going to get something that was perfectly legal. So was it honest mistake from the doctor, or did the doctor make her believe it is the medication she gave him while giving her something else?

I see the point you are making but I disagree that's the crux of the matter. Short of a known medical condition that requires active medical management--which Bobrova apparently didn't have--I don't understand why ANY skater (from any country) would think that it makes sense to get injected with anything, or take any sort of pills, just before a competition. Regardless of WHO is giving out said injections/pills. I mean, if you're not in fit enough shape to get through your practices, warm-ups, and programs without legal but extra "vitamin shots" given just before or during the competition, then what does that say about you as an athlete? So I keep coming back to: did she feel that she had to take what the doctor had in his hand, or else suffer some sort of negative action down the road, to be administered by Team officials.

I'm really working hard here to give Bobrova as many benefits of a doubt as I can, because I've always liked and respected her (breaking at the waist and all, I know) and really can't bear to think that she was complicit in anything shady.

 

[barbk]

That makes it even worse. These poor athletes have been taking this drug in the belief that it would enhance their performance, and it turns out it was a snake oil of a dope all along. Careers down the drain for a placebo!

I'm not so sure of that. From the (Google Translate) of one of the last questions:

"Yet a study from 2012 (1) which you are the co-author, mentions that "the Mildronate increases endurance properties and aerobic capacity of athletes" and concluded that it is "recommended for its pharmaceutical use which improves capacity working athletes "...

The last sentence of this reference can be confusing, if the text is not included in its entirety. It means that during training under the threshold of the maximum tolerated physical load in the absence of ischemia, athletes can work longer. But this is not the case for sports events, where athletes go to their maximum capacity and undergo ischemia."​

Isn't most athletic training going to be under the threshold of "maximum tolerated physical load"? If the athlete gains performance enhancement -- including faster recovery -- during training, that is still doping as far as I know.

Of course, I'm still a little creeped out at the notion of doctors regularly injecting athletes with medications other than pain-relief steriods for injuries.

 

[Coco]

Lots of people in the US who can afford it get vitamin shots. There doesn't need to be a vitamin deficiency observed before the doctor can give them. They only need to 'help.'

 

[jiejie]

^^ But "lots of people in the US" aren't competing in international elite athletics and subject to WADA and doping controls. Perhaps my perspective is colored by the fact that I have a needle phobia and cannot fathom why anybody would subject themselves to an injection without a darn good reason beyond "I need more energy and stamina" when there are other ways to accomplish that...though those other methods are achieved over time, not instantaneously. Same goes for last-minute pill pick-me-uppers too.

 

[clairecloutier]

Statement from ISU--Bobrova has been "provisionally suspended".

http://www.isu.org/en/news-and-events/news/2016/03/statement-ekaterina-bobrova-rus

 

[Sedge]

Article with many quotes from Mutko

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ria-sharapova-meldonium-athletes-vitaly-mutko

 

[Kultakissu]

I'm not so sure of that. From the (Google Translate) of one of the last questions:

"Yet a study from 2012 (1) which you are the co-author, mentions that "the Mildronate increases endurance properties and aerobic capacity of athletes" and concluded that it is "recommended for its pharmaceutical use which improves capacity working athletes "...

The last sentence of this reference can be confusing, if the text is not included in its entirety. It means that during training under the threshold of the maximum tolerated physical load in the absence of ischemia, athletes can work longer. But this is not the case for sports events, where athletes go to their maximum capacity and undergo ischemia."​

Isn't most athletic training going to be under the threshold of "maximum tolerated physical load"? If the athlete gains performance enhancement -- including faster recovery -- during training, that is still doping as far as I know.

Of course, I'm still a little creeped out at the notion of doctors regularly injecting athletes with medications other than pain-relief steriods for injuries.

I was trying to be sarcastic

 

[Coquelicot14]

I mean, if you're not in fit enough shape to get through your practices, warm-ups, and programs without legal but extra "vitamin shots" given just before or during the competition, then what does that say about you as an athlete? So I keep coming back to: did she feel that she had to take what the doctor had in his hand, or else suffer some sort of negative action down the road, to be administered by Team officials.

In principle I agree with the fact that getting vitamin shots before competing is strange, is it something skaters do in general?

As for her taking what the doctor had, she has requested that the medicine given to her by her own doctor (who wasn't there) was administrated to her. It was her own initiative, not the competition doctor's who was at another event at the time.
Here is a link to her interview:

http://m.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/974642


I don't exclude that there might have been a mix up somewhere, but we don't know details at this time.

 

[Meoima]

This is getting scarier and scarier: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...nikita-kamaev-was-to-reveal-all-a6888406.html

The former executive director of the Russian anti-doping agency (Rusada) who suddenly died of a heart attack eight days ago, had planned to write a book revealing “the true story of doping in Russia” with information covering the last three decades since he began work for a “secret lab”.

 

[Xela M]

This is getting scarier and scarier: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...nikita-kamaev-was-to-reveal-all-a6888406.html

Sudden deaths of dangerous people have become standard procedure in Putin's Russia

 

[SmallFairy]

A Russian speed skater Pavel Kulizjnikov has tested positive for the same substance, Norwegian newspapers now write on the web.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I don't know what to say anymore, either about this or Sharapova.

All so sad

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Russian athletes have always been 'managed' by their teams - coaches, Federation, trainers. Bobrova or any other Russian skater would have no idea what she's being injected with. This is how East German female swimmers were subjected to horrific pharmaceutical experiments for the sake of glorifying their country. Culturally, this is how things are in Russia. Bobrova would trust her team to manage her vitamins properly. Is is stupid, naive, etc in this day and age? Yes. It is time for Russian athletes to take control, and start asking questions. I expect more Russian suspensions shortly. It appears the Fed/ training staff did not read new drug protocols. Something was missed and the athletes will pay the price. This is horrendous for Bobrova & Soloviev and will probably end their careers.

 

[Xela M]

I don't know what to say anymore, either about this or Sharapova.

All so sad

I think Sharapova is guilty. Her humble admission and classy behaviour is a PR move in my view.

I will never believe neither she nor her team checked the WADA list.

 

[Meoima]

I think Sharapova is guilty. Her humble admission and classy behaviour is a PR move in my view.
I will never believe neither she nor her team checked the WADA list.

You know, I have read enough about doping to the point I don't believe any tennis player is clean. So Sharapova isn't clean, I am sure the rest of the field isn't either. It's just this time it's her who has been caught.
And you know I don't believe those football players are clean at all. When all of them use drugs, it's not so much different to me. Of course I never say using drug is right. It is wrong, very wrong.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Sudden deaths of dangerous people have become standard procedure in Putin's Russia

I usually agree with your figure skating posts, but you really have to stop pushing your political agenda over and over again on a skating forum.
There are other forums for that.

It makes me think of a saying: Кошка бросила котят, значит Путин виноват. ;-)

 

[Xela M]

I usually agree with your figure skating posts, but you really have to stop pushing your political agenda over and over again on a skating forum.
There are other forums for that.

It makes me think of a saying: Кошка бросила котят, значит Путин виноват. ;-)

Hehe, fine. I will try. It just drives me crazy what Putin has done to the country I love, but I'll shut up about it for now

 

[Coquelicot14]

Russian athletes have always been 'managed' by their teams - coaches, Federation, trainers. Bobrova or any other Russian skater would have no idea what she's being injected with. This is how East German female swimmers were subjected to horrific pharmaceutical experiments for the sake of glorifying their country. Culturally, this is how things are in Russia. Bobrova would trust her team to manage her vitamins properly.

Please read her interview I posted earlier, she requested an injection to get better sleep at night. Nothing was pushed on her. Now if there was a mix up in the medicine, that remains to be investigated.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Hehe, fine. I will try. It just drives me crazy what Putin has done to the country I love, but I'll shut up about it for now

We can agree to disagree. For many, life has significantly improved from the 90s.

But we share a common love of FS, so if we stick to that it's all good.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I think Sharapova is guilty. Her humble admission and classy behaviour is a PR move in my view.

I will never believe neither she nor her team checked the WADA list.

The Sharapova case is a little sketchy.

 

[leafygreens]

http://vazel.blog.lemonde.fr/2016/0...r-du-meldonium-ce-nest-pas-un-produit-dopant/

it is a protective drug that does not increase the production of energy or physical abilities in humans, since meldonium lowers the rate of carnitine - a well-known substance used as a food supplement in bodybuilding, slowing energy production by fatty acids and thus decreasing the total energy production in the human body!

However, there is no scientific evidence available (RCTs double blind) demonstrating the ability of meldonium to improve athletic performance.

The meldonium is not a doping substance and in my opinion it can not improve the performance of athletes.

WADA seems to be justifying the ban on the grounds that it was found in 18% of Russian athletes. But where is the proof that it's actually helping these athletes excel? The inventor of the drug says it doesn't enhance anything. The athletes could all be taking the equivalent of performance enhancing snake oil. That's not a reason to ban it IMO.

Additionally, it's probably not found in many athletes outside of Europe simply because it's not approved by the FDA, for one, so American doctors won't be prescribing it. But lack of FDA approval doesn't mean it's enhancing someone's performance in another country.

Athletes and federations are notified well in advance when a legal drug is going to be made illegal. They have lots of time to either stop taking the drug or to find an alternative if they need it for legitimate medical reasons.

In Sharapova's case, I don't think one email, no matter how far in advance, is good enough notification but maybe that's just me.

How about all the athletes who had to compete against her, who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs? Where is the sympathy for them?

It doesn't appear that the athletes in question have had that much of an advantage, judging by their competitive results (with the exception of Sharapova, who apparently has a medical condition.)

It was announced in September 2015 that it would be banned Jan 1 2016 if found in your system Jan 1 2016. That means stop it in September...not take it in November.....They give you 4 months warning so you can stop in time to be clean by January...Where is the confusion?

I think Bobrova said she stopped immediately in September. If I understand correctly she claims she was clean of Meldronium until a doctor injected her with an unknown substance the day before Euros. Of course she could have told the doctor to stop because she didn't see the vial, but patients have the right to be able to trust their doctors, who have an obligation to act with good medical ethics.

We are not used to seeing a team event in FS, that's all. In gymnastics nobody questions a team gold. It receives the same respect as any other Olympic gold. It is sad to see FS fans not respecting their own sport. I don't remember the name of the US gymnast who was highly publicized as a potential all around gold in gymnastics but didn't win anything but the team gold. She is still an Olympic gold medallist.

Jordyn Weiber

Lots of people in the US who can afford it get vitamin shots. There doesn't need to be a vitamin deficiency observed before the doctor can give them. They only need to 'help.'

I know people who get vitamin b12 shots for increased energy. I guess they are "doping" in life.