Ashley Wagner reveals she was assaulted by John Coughlin

[jeffisjeff]

at this.. what a crazy 'article'

Well, it is RT.

 

[muffinplus]

Well, it is RT.

Is that typical? Are they a "yellow press" outlet? I'm not too familiar

 

[flyingsit]

In my opinion, Nobody over the age of 18 should be dating someone under the age of 18....

That's just not realistic, though. Some high school students are 18, should they not be allowed to date classmates who aren't 18 yet?

In my case, I was 17 my entire freshman year of college. The first few weeks I was 16.

 

[jeffisjeff]

Is that typical? Are they a "yellow press" outlet? I'm not too familiar

Russia’s RT Network: Is It More BBC or K.G.B.? (Published 2017)

Analysts say the network is spreading disinformation and undermining Western democracies, but its executives say it is just providing an “alternative” view.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Vagabond]

Is that typical? Are they a "yellow press" outlet? I'm not too familiar

"RT" stands for Russian Trolls. What more do you need to know?

 

[PRlady]

Is that typical? Are they a "yellow press" outlet? I'm not too familiar

They're Putin's house organ. They make Fox News look independent. I'm sure anything that reflects badly on US skating is just fine with them.

 

[RoseRed]

I think all sports organizations and high schools should require mandatory education on consent and what a LEGAL relationship involves.

In my opinion, Nobody over the age of 18 should be dating someone under the age of 18.... Especially if they enter in to a sexual relationship. However, if a high school senior dates a high school freshman (non-athletes) how can we tell a 18/19-year-old male skater that he can’t date a 14 or 15-year-old female skater? Or vice versa. It gets complicated but maybe set/clear rules need to be established, along with mandatory training for the skaters themselves.

I just feel that things get really messy when you have a minor/adult relationship even if it’s only several years difference, and then add in consent issues? It’s just best to steer clear of everything and have some black-and-white rules to follow.

Oh, I do disagree with this. With a black and white rule like you described, I could start dating a guy when I was 15 and he was 16 (which would be perfectly fine at the time), and then when he turned 18 and I was still 17 it would be suddenly not allowed. Which would obviously be stupid. I think close-in-age exceptions are a good idea in general (and they don't apply in situations where one person is in a position of power).

I do think that education for everyone involved about consent, grooming and healthy / unhealthy/toxic/controlling relationships is key, and like you said, not just in sports but everywhere. I also think that discouraging relationships with age differences like you described is probably a good idea, even when they aren't illegal. I do agree that even a few years when people are young can be very messy.

 

[PRlady]

If Coughlin was the same age as Ashley when he assaulted her, it would still have been assault. And I'm sure there are some underage assaulters in the skating community right now. Prohibiting relationships across the arbitrary line of age 18 isn't going to stop assault; making clear what assault IS and making sure there are consequences for it and safe spaces for victims to come forward is more important.

 

[jeffisjeff]

They're Putin's house organ. They make Fox News look independent. I'm sure anything that reflects badly on US skating is just fine with them.

I think the RT article about this fits with the following (quoted from the article I posted above):

Even as Russia insists that RT is just another global network like the BBC or France 24, albeit one offering “alternative views” to the Western-dominated news media, many Western countries regard RT as the slickly produced heart of a broad, often covert disinformation campaign designed to sow doubt about democratic institutions and destabilize the West.

The Western media has been supportive of the #MeToo movement, ipso facto RT will take the "alternative view" and sympathize with the accused.

 

[MsZem]

A high school classmate of mine started dating a 22-year old guy when she was 17. They got married eight years later, and they're still married. But it wasn't her first relationship, and she was more mature than a typical high schooler. I think that was a situation where she could give meaningful consent, but many in those circumstances couldn't.

Of course, Ashley did not consent at any point.

 

[rfisher]

I'm curious, of the parents who are reading the thread, did you discuss consent with your children (or will you) as they approach the teen years? I know mine never did. I know most evangelical parents don't (I've know too many of them whose children had sex with no clue about sex except you weren't supposed to do it---and we know how well that advice is taken). I certainly think teens and younger children understand the concept, but how many parents explicitly discuss this with their children. While I think sports organizations that have young health teenagers as members should take responsibility, parents should start this conversation at home first. Hopefully, more parents are comfortable discussing this with their children given the amount of discussion in the media over the last several years.

 

[Yazmeen]

The issue is CONSENT. I have a subscription to WaPo, and while the comments there have generally been supportive of Ashley, there are a few men posting who keep bringing up that the age of consent in Colorado is 17, ignoring the point that she did NOT CONSENT to John touching her. And I'm about to blow a gasket with the dude who is fixated on "whose bed it was" at the party, basically saying that if she got into "Coughlin's bed," it could have been interpreted as an "invitation" (he conveniently ignored the part where Ashley stated John got in bed with her). So, I guess in his mind, if a man and woman are watching TV on a couch and she falls asleep, he could interpret that as her wanting sex because she's next to him...

I am incredibly proud of Ashley for having the guts to do this, especially in the face of a backlash that I'm sure she expected and is handling incredibly well. And for the record, the Bureau of Justice Statistics from the US DOJ defines sexual assault separately from rape: Sexual assault - A wide range of victimizations, separate from rape or attempted rape. These crimes include attacks or attempted attacks generally involving unwanted sexual contact between victim and offender. Sexual assaults may or may not involve force and include such things as grabbing or fondling. It also includes verbal threats.

 

[once_upon]

My husband is 18 months older than me we started dating when I was 15 and he was 16. We've been together for 50 years. Hard fast rule would have had 18 months of no dating and possibly ended the relationship for good.

 

[Yazmeen]

My husband is 18 months older than me we started dating when I was 15 and he was 16. We've been together for 50 years. Hard fast rule would have had 18 months of no dating and possibly ended the relationship for good.

I was one of the youngest in my classes throughout elementary, middle and high school (back in the days when you sent the kid to school as early as possible). I met my husband 4 months shy of my 18th birthday when I went to college. Celebrating our 34th wedding anniversary in just over a week, and 44 years since we met in September.

 

[made_in_canada]

I'm curious, of the parents who are reading the thread, did you discuss consent with your children (or will you) as they approach the teen years? I know mine never did. I know most evangelical parents don't (I've know too many of them whose children had sex with no clue about sex except you weren't supposed to do it---and we know how well that advice is taken). I certainly think teens and younger children understand the concept, but how many parents explicitly discuss this with their children. While I think sports organizations that have young health teenagers as members should take responsibility, parents should start this conversation at home first. Hopefully, more parents are comfortable discussing this with their children given the amount of discussion in the media over the last several years.

My kids are still young but we've talked about how we'll address sex and relationships and consent will definitely be a big part of it. It starts way earlier though. I've seen a lot of little boys disrespectful of others' space and bodies that's brushed off as "boys will be boys" and it makes me crazy. Little girls don't get the same leeway. As an extreme example one of my nephews is 8 and he's already got an entitled attitude about who and what he can touch and speaks disparagingly about girls and women. It's modeled behaviour, his dad is pretty vile, but still, he's 8! And it's defended by his parents because he's a boy, and they don't want him to be "weak"

 

[aka_gerbil]

In my opinion, Nobody over the age of 18 should be dating someone under the age of 18....

So a 16-year-old and a 17-year-old start dating. They have to break up once the 17-year-old turns 18?

I am in favor of the common sense “Romeo and Juliet” laws that cover relationships were the parties are not more than a couple of years apart in age but just happen to be in the opposite sides of 18.

 

[canbelto]

We are not talking about dating here. No evidence that JC ever made romantic overtures to Ashley. He assaulted her in her sleep which is illegal whether she’s 17 or 90.

 

[tony]

Yeah, I’m really confused about the age of consent and all this chat in the last few pages. It’s not a question of whether they were dating- they weren’t. The age doesn’t matter. It wouldn’t have mattered if he was 50 and she 51. And I also have a hard time believing any of these people don’t realize what they are doing (in simple terms- taking advantage).

I also get the impression that some of the women here just flat-out hate other women or blame them for not being tough in that moment or the moments following.

 

[PRlady]

There’s a long, sad tradition in persecuted groups of blaming the victim in your group. Psychologically, if you can say to yourself that the victim was in the wrong place or did the wrong thing before or after, it reassures you that it won’t happen to right-doing you.

The most extreme example I know of this, which is well-documented, are the large numbers of (then) Palestine-born Israelis who treated Holocaust survivors with contempt. It was a sign of their weak, ghettoized, Diaspora culture that allowed them to be rounded up like “sheep to the slaughter,” as the phrase was. Talk about displaced hostility and fear!

I used to be one of those women who thought I’d never suffered serious sexual assault because I was too tough for any jerk to try that with me. I was so wrong, first because there were instances I’d blocked out of my mind, and second because toughness has very little to do with it. But there are still a lot of women who would rather find fault with the victim than admit that we as a group are vulnerable.

 

[Colonel Green]

Yeah, I’m really confused about the age of consent and all this chat in the last few pages.

Also a lot of the discussion about drinking, etc. Granted, if viewed in isolation maybe Coughlin was drunk, but considering there's evidence of a pattern of behaviour at this point, I don't think that could reasonably be considered the deciding factor. This was who Coughlin was, drunk or sober.

 

[tony]

Also a lot of the discussion about drinking, etc. Granted, if viewed in isolation maybe Coughlin was drunk, but considering there's evidence of a pattern of behaviour at this point, I don't think that could reasonably be considered the deciding factor. This was who Coughlin was, drunk or sober.

Exactly. I’m pretty sure getting drunk, driving a car, and having some kind of incident doesn’t make ANYONE say ‘Well, that person was drunk. They are excused.’ Please.

 

[Vagabond]

Also a lot of the discussion about drinking, etc. Granted, if viewed in isolation maybe Coughlin was drunk, but considering there's evidence of a pattern of behaviour at this point, I don't think that could reasonably be considered the deciding factor. This was who Coughlin was, drunk or sober.

Voluntary intoxication is not a defense to a charge of sexual assault. But, yes, all indications are that he didn't let mere sobriety stop him.

 

[Colonel Green]

Voluntary intoxication is not a defense to a charge of sexual assault.

I didn't suggest it was. I was addressing the notion of whether drinking culture contributed to the situation.

 

[Vagabond]

I didn't suggest it was. I was addressing the notion of whether drinking culture contributed to the situation.

Noted, but then again there isn't any particular reason to assume that Coughlin himself had anything to drink that night.

 

[Prancer]

I'll go out on a limb and say that any young person who spends most of his/her time in a cloistered environment of one sort or another -- not necessarily elite sports -- is going to be much more likely to be emotionally immature and inexperienced for his/her age. (Coming from someone who went to a parochial high school.)

The boys in skating are fawned over and made to think they're all that if they're pair or dance skaters, and the girls are decked out like gorgeous little Christmas trees to perform, and the coaches are frequently young, and boys without much dating experience can figure out that it's easier to pick on younger females. That's a lot of negative cultural impact, right there.

Speaking as a person who was raised in a cloistered environment, I would say that not only is all of that true, but such environments also commonly engage in social blindness. I took a class in the sociology of American sects a few years ago in which we discussed the concepts of gemeinshaft (community) and gesellschaft (society). The smaller and tighter the community, the higher the level of tolerance for what might simplistically be called "bad behavior" because such tolerance is what allows the community to live peacefully together. If you "don't see" something, it can't disrupt the community.

I know most evangelical parents don't (I've know too many of them whose children had sex with no clue about sex except you weren't supposed to do it---and we know how well that advice is taken).

They also teach, implicitly and explicitly, that females are responsible for male sexuality--that the way you dress, behave, socialize and comport yourself can lead men astray, which means that men and women think that women are to blame when men cross those lines.

Apparently this attitude exists outside of fundamentalist/evangelical groups as well.

 

[mpleaf4ever]

We have ongoing discussions about consent. Mine are young still—9 and 10 YO—but we've been discussing it in age-appropriate ways since they were preschoolers. I'm a sexuality educator so I am probably more open about discussing these things with my kids than the average bear. But 5-year-olds can begin to understand consent when it is framed as a friend who wants to give you a hug or hold your hand or sit with you + you don't want to: How to set and enforce boundaries + also how to recognize them + how to seek affirmative consent. If you start young, it's easy to shift gears later to frame it in the context of sexual relationships because they already have a solid foundation and understanding of the concept.

ETA—This is in response to the post that posed this question, and I can't internet today:

"I'm curious, of the parents who are reading the thread, did you discuss consent with your children (or will you) as they approach the teen years? I know mine never did. I know most evangelical parents don't (I've know too many of them whose children had sex with no clue about sex except you weren't supposed to do it---and we know how well that advice is taken). I certainly think teens and younger children understand the concept, but how many parents explicitly discuss this with their children. While I think sports organizations that have young health teenagers as members should take responsibility, parents should start this conversation at home first. Hopefully, more parents are comfortable discussing this with their children given the amount of discussion in the media over the last several years."

 

[Colonel Green]

Noted, but then again there isn't any particular reason to assume that Coughlin himself had anything to drink that night.

The setting, as described, was a party where there was lots of alcohol being consumed, so it's not unreasonable to think so, though there is no evidence one way or another on the current record.

But my point was that whether he had or not, based on his larger track record this wasn't a drinking-related issue, so discussions about whether more education needs to be had about drinking at parties, etc. doesn't really relate to the issue at hand, anymore than education about consent in relationships, etc. (beyond, I guess, all the people who think that it wasn't assault because he stopped after she challenged him; those people need reeducation).

 

[PRlady]

Speaking as a person who was raised in a cloistered environment, I would say that not only is all of that true, but such environments also commonly engage in social blindness. I took a class in the sociology of American sects a few years ago in which we discussed the concepts of gemeinshaft (community) and gesellschaft (society). The smaller and tighter the community, the higher the level of tolerance for what might simplistically be called "bad behavior" because such tolerance is what allows the community to live peacefully together. If you "don't see" something, it can't disrupt the community.



They also teach, implicitly and explicitly, that females are responsible for male sexuality--that the way you dress, behave, socialize and comport yourself can lead men astray, which means that men and women think that women are to blame when men cross those lines.

Apparently this attitude exists outside of fundamentalist/evangelical groups as well.

All this. The continuing scandals of sexual abuse of children in the ultra-Orthodox community stems from both tightly-knit exclusion of outsiders and the view that any female over the age of five has to behave and dress modestly at all times.

 

[Jay42]

I'm curious, of the parents who are reading the thread, did you discuss consent with your children (or will you) as they approach the teen years? I know mine never did. I know most evangelical parents don't (I've know too many of them whose children had sex with no clue about sex except you weren't supposed to do it---and we know how well that advice is taken). I certainly think teens and younger children understand the concept, but how many parents explicitly discuss this with their children. While I think sports organizations that have young health teenagers as members should take responsibility, parents should start this conversation at home first. Hopefully, more parents are comfortable discussing this with their children given the amount of discussion in the media over the last several years.

As someone who grew up homeschooled in a very evangelical environment, I had base level sex education that ended with “don’t have sex until marriage” and I learned about consent and how that works from the internet.

I definitely got the whole dress modestly and behave like a good Christian girl. My style of clothing has never been what anyone would define as immodest anyway, but I was never great at behaving like a good Christian girl. I’ve always been too much of a tomboy for that.

My brother got all his sex ed from the internet because our parents never bothered to sit down with him like our mom did with me.

 

[puglover]

My parents were very open about sex for their day, my mother especially so. There was an older man who lived down the lane from us and he coaxed my friends and I over to his home to see his dogs - where he exposed himself to us. We were probably around ten at the time. None of us told! I suspect it went on with different neighborhood girls for years. As an adult I happened to mention what had happened and my dad was just devastated that he didn't know and was not able to do anything about it. Why didn't I tell? I am not entirely sure except I was so grossed out by the experience I just wanted to forget about it. Which obviously I didn't. Sexual predators seem to know that regardless of upbringing, telling is going to be a most uncomfortable discussion for a young person.