Are senior ladies allowed to attempt quads in the sp?

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

With Rika Kihira's victory at NHK tonight, I began to wonder if Team Eteri will be plotting and planning next season with her wonder tots, Trusova and Shcherbekova. Meaning, will Tuberidze get the skaters to include quadruple jumps in their short program, once they reach the senior national and international level. We know that Trusova has a lutz and a quad toe / triple toe. Imagine the hype if she went for those!

 

[muffinplus]

Not currently allowed

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Not currently allowed

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Why?

 

[SmallFairy]

That's not fair. They can't because they're ladies??? Men could do quads in the sp since 1999 or something?

 

[tony]

Skating has moved very quickly in the last 15 or so years. Until 2003, ladies were permitted to do a triple OR double out of steps without deduction.

Men were able to do a quad in the short program for a few years before they introduced the quad being permitted in combination (2001 IIRC).

Triple Axel as the Axel-type element for the ladies in the short wasn’t allowed until very recently. Ladies could try 3A+2T at any point, and I know Angela Derochie was going for it at least once in the 98-99 season.

The quad is coming.

As the ladies push the sport technically, there needs to be another analysis about the factoring of components. Remember, in men it’s 1.0/2.0 factor but in ladies, it’s 0.8/1.6 and some of them are catching up with the jumps.

 

[SmallFairy]

@Tony Wheeler thanks for more background info. As late as 1994 ladies could only do a double out of steps in the so

 

[gkelly]

Triple Axel as the Axel-type element for the ladies in the short wasn’t allowed until very recently. Ladies could try 3A+2T at any point, and I know Angela Derochie was going for it at least once in the 98-99 season.

And Ito and Harding in 1991-92.

 

[Coco]

I'm shocked, I had no idea. I thought the solo jump was at a minimum a triple. I didn't realize it had to be a triple.

I always wondered if Mal would have developed a reliable triple triple if she could have used the triple Axel as her Axel jump in the short program. The whole time she was coming up the rule was at the Axel jump had to be a double axle. It wasn't until 2011 when this restriction was lifted.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

With Rika Kihara's victory at NHK tonight

It's Rika Kihira.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to allow quads in the SP quite yet, because there are only 2 junior skaters (I believe) attempting them internationally and they already have a huge technical advantage in base value over their competitors in the free skate. It would just give these two particular skaters (who also happen to be from the same country) an even more enormous advantage that they don't need and put even more emphasis on one type of element.

 

[skatingguy]

Pairs used to be required to do a double twist, the solo jump in men's used to be a lutz jump done on a long outside edge - the short program requirements will be adjusted. They changed the axel requirement for the Ladies to allow the triple, they'll change the requirement for the solo jump to allow a quad.

 

[rosewood]

3A was allowed in SP as a solo axel type jump in Sr ladies field a season after Mao did both 3A-2T and 2A (as an axel type jump) in one SP. Until that season 2A was a mandatory axel type jump so Mao had to do 3A as a part of a combo.

 

[Skittl1321]

Pairs used to be required to do a double twist, the solo jump in men's used to be a lutz jump done on a long outside edge - the short program requirements will be adjusted. They changed the axel requirement for the Ladies to allow the triple, they'll change the requirement for the solo jump to allow a quad.

Can pairs do a quad twist in the short now? Even after many were doing quads, it was still limited to triple. If it changed, I didn't realize.

 

[skatingguy]

Can pairs do a quad twist in the short now? Even after many were doing quads, it was still limited to triple. If it changed, I didn't realize.

No, it hasn't changed. It seems the ISU isn't big on pairs doing quads with the reductions in base value of those elements this season I think we've seen the end of quads in pairs for the time being.

 

[rfisher]

It's Rika Kihira.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to allow quads in the SP quite yet, because there are only 2 junior skaters (I believe) attempting them internationally and they already have a huge technical advantage in base value over their competitors in the free skate. It would just give these two particular skaters (who also happen to be from the same country) an even more enormous advantage that they don't need and put even more emphasis on one type of element.

Not when they are competing against a skater doing a 3A in the short. Why shouldn't they be allowed to do an equally competitive element??? More and more skaters are doing the 3A and more will be doing the quad.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It's Rika Kihira.

Sorry, pet peeve.

I have a pet peeve, too. But if I say it out loud, I'd be kicked off this site.

 

[DreamSkates]

It's Rika Kihira.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to allow quads in the SP quite yet, because there are only 2 junior skaters (I believe) attempting them internationally and they already have a huge technical advantage in base value over their competitors in the free skate. It would just give these two particular skaters (who also happen to be from the same country) an even more enormous advantage that they don't need and put even more emphasis on one type of element.

Hasn't there already been an advantage (maybe not so huge) with arms over the head and backloading programs?

 

[Deleted member 19433]

Not when they are competing against a skater doing a 3A in the short. Why shouldn't they be allowed to do an equally competitive element??? More and more skaters are doing the 3A and more will be doing the quad.

More probably will be doing the quad, but so far it's only 2 junior skaters in the past 15 years (and I don't think Shcherbakova has landed it internationally yet). Junior Ladies can't do a 3A as the axel-type jump in the short (they could do it in the combination but I don't believe anyone has ever done so and it wouldn't be beneficial relative to a triple-triple unless done in 3A+3T combo, which only Kihira of female skaters has ever executed successfully or even attempted AFAIK).

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

At the time the option of a double or triple Axel was introduced in the ladies' short program, for several seasons I believe only Asada took advantage of it. It wouldn't surprise me that once Trusova and Shcherbakova reach the senior level, that the option of a quadruple jump or combination is considered in the ladies' short as well.

 

[VGThuy]

At the time the option of a double or triple Axel was introduced in the ladies' short program, for several seasons I believe only Asada took advantage of it. It wouldn't surprise me that once Trusova and Shcherbakova reach the senior level, that the option of a quadruple jump or combination is considered in the ladies' short as well.

Not to turn this into the conspiracy theory thread but I remember some very posts from some Yuna Kim fans about how they were changing the rules to benefit Mao Asada. Same thing about the 1/4 UR call rule and the limiting the LP to only two double axels as well, I believe.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Not to turn this into the conspiracy theory thread but I remember some very posts from some Yuna Kim fans about how they were changing the rules to benefit Mao Asada. Same thing about the 1/4 UR call rule and the limiting the LP to only two double axels as well, I believe.

Interesting.

But given how the men's event has been reshaped to limit quads and reduce the number of jumping passes in the free skate, that wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Kateri]

I'm torn, honestly. I'm generally in favour of allowing people to do the hardest tech they can, because it's a sport. But I also like the idea of keeping the SP distinct from the LP in certain ways, not just a shorter version. And making everyone do the same elements to compare them directly is one way of doing that. So I tend to like required jumps and certain limitations, etc.

Given that I don't really get what I want in the senior SP much anymore, I say let 'em quad.

 

[rosewood]

Not to turn this into the conspiracy theory thread but I remember some very posts from some Yuna Kim fans about how they were changing the rules to benefit Mao Asada. Same thing about the 1/4 UR call rule and the limiting the LP to only two double axels as well, I believe.

 

[gkelly]

Junior Ladies can't do a 3A as the axel-type jump in the short (they could do it in the combination but I don't believe anyone has ever done so

Mao Asada tried it at Junior Worlds in either 05 or 06.

ETA: Here we go. Looks like she was going for 3A+2Lo but only managed 1 Lo.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm torn, honestly. I'm generally in favour of allowing people to do the hardest tech they can, because it's a sport. But I also like the idea of keeping the SP distinct from the LP in certain ways, not just a shorter version. And making everyone do the same elements to compare them directly is one way of doing that. So I tend to like required jumps and certain limitations, etc.

That reminds me of a gymnastics quote where one of the commentators said that while optionals showcased the best routine, compulsories showcased the best athlete.

 

[screech]

I miss the days back when the solo jump was required to be a specific element. I wish ISU would so something like 18/19 the solo jump must be a flip (triple or quad). 19/20 a loop, 20/21 a lutz... etc. Yes, I know not all skaters can do all kinds of jumps, but that's kind of the point! A well rounded skater should be required to do them all. That's kind of the point of a 'required' element! The SP these days is just a shorter FP, which makes me kind of understand when (a few years ago?) there were rumours about possibly eliminating the SP from competition.
I also miss when the spin was a required one (sit/sit, or camel/camel, or layback/upright).

 

[gkelly]

I miss the days back when the solo jump was required to be a specific element. I wish ISU would so something like 18/19 the solo jump must be a flip (triple or quad). 19/20 a loop, 20/21 a lutz... etc. Yes, I know not all skaters can do all kinds of jumps, but that's kind of the point! A well rounded skater should be required to do them all.

If you're going to specify the takeoff, then I think you would need to allow doubles for senior ladies -- as is already the case for required solo jumps in both men's and ladies' SPs at junior level.

Remember back in the 1970s and 80s the required jumps were always doubles -- even when top men were doing 3A as the other jump in the combination.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I miss the days back when the solo jump was required to be a specific element. I wish ISU would so something like 18/19 the solo jump must be a flip (triple or quad). 19/20 a loop, 20/21 a lutz... etc. Yes, I know not all skaters can do all kinds of jumps, but that's kind of the point! A well rounded skater should be required to do them all. That's kind of the point of a 'required' element! The SP these days is just a shorter FP, which makes me kind of understand when (a few years ago?) there were rumours about possibly eliminating the SP from competition.

I also miss when the spin was a required one (sit/sit, or camel/camel, or layback/upright).

If you're going to specify the takeoff, then I think you would need to allow doubles for senior ladies -- as is already the case for required solo jumps in both men's and ladies' SPs at junior level.

Remember back in the 1970s and 80s the required jumps were always doubles -- even when top men were doing 3A as the other jump in the combination.

I would love to see the short program become themed at some point, like the Rhythm Dance.
That is, the singles skaters or pairs performing to a particular style of music or tempo.

 

[tony]

I would love to see the short program become themed at some point, like the Rhythm Dance.
That is, the singles skaters or pairs have to perform to a particular style of music or tempo.

I've wondered for the last 10 or so years why this isn't even brought up as an option at Congress (or maybe it has and I haven't noticed). Although I could see a particularly bad theme being a disaster for 90% of the skaters-- not any different from dance some years.

I'm also torn about making the short program more specific in requirements- ie. a particular jump take-off as the solo jump like they do in juniors and used to do with the seniors once upon a time. We see a lot of skaters getting away with lazy or incorrect technique, and this would be another motivation to learn the right way.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Although I could see a particularly bad theme being a disaster for 90% of the skaters-- not any different from dance some years.

I'm reminded of the time I saw a juvenile ladies' event where every second little girl skated to 'Let It Go' from FROZEN.
That incident alone cost me six months in rehab.