Are senior ladies allowed to attempt quads in the sp?

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I've wondered for the last 10 or so years why this isn't even brought up as an option at Congress (or maybe it has and I haven't noticed). Although I could see a particularly bad theme being a disaster for 90% of the skaters-- not any different from dance some years.

I'm also torn about making the short program more specific in requirements- ie. a particular jump take-off as the solo jump like they do in juniors and used to do with the seniors once upon a time. We see a lot of skaters getting away with lazy or incorrect technique, and this would be another motivation to learn the right way.

I'm showing my age. But I kind of miss short programs from the 1980s.

 

[all_empty]

Given the wide range in skill level, juniors have the more options (but ironically, less flexibility) in their jumping passes.

Currently, neither junior men nor ladies cannot do quads in the short, either in combination or as the solo jump.

They can do a triple-double or triple-triple combination (ladies can also do a double-double without penalty).

I like that the spin and solo jump are prescribed each year, as it forces the juniors to hone elements they might not be strong in (i.e. 3Lo for Yuna Kim back in 2004-5, the 3Lz for Starr Andrews last year).

In both her seasons as a junior, Kihira didn't try a 3A combination in the short. I can see the ISU changing the rules to allow for a double or triple Axel for the junior ladies to fall in line with the men before permitting quads.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Given the wide range in skill level, juniors have the more options (but ironically, less flexibility) in their jumping passes.

Currently, neither junior men nor ladies cannot do quads in the short, either in combination or as the solo jump.

They can do a triple-double or triple-triple combination (ladies can also do a double-double without penalty).

I like that the spin and solo jump are prescribed each year, as it forces the juniors to hone elements they might not be strong in (i.e. 3Lo for Yuna Kim back in 2004-5, the 3Lz for Starr Andrews last year).

I think juniors can do the prescribed jump as either a triple or a double as well.

 

[gkelly]

I think juniors can do the prescribed jump as either a triple or a double as well.

Yes.

 

[Coco]

I would love to see a prescribed element of flying sit spin in the basic position for 8 revs, because I really think that's harder than a lot of the so-called difficult variations we see. Sure it's difficult to get in those positions, but once there, you can hold on to your leg, which makes it easier to stay in that position then it is to stay in the basic sit position.

Would also love to see a prescribed element of double or triple Lutz from a long back outside edge. It could be used as the first jump in a combo or as the solo jump.

 

[Marco]

Now that they have done away with the mandatory layback spin, I think it is high time for them to consider doing away the mandatory axel jump. Nothing against it, just don't feel why it should warrant special attention anymore.

Instead, I suggest the requirement can be changed to one combo jump, one solo edge jump, and one solo toe jump.

 

[Japanfan]

It's Rika Kihira.
It would just give these two particular skaters (who also happen to be from the same country) an even more enormous advantage that they don't need and put even more emphasis on one type of element.

But when few men were doing quads, they had the advantage. Elvis Stojko is highly decorated because of it.

I'm not sure that a lot of women are able to quads, because of the upper body strength is requires.

But I think they are capable of doing quads, and the only reason they (barring perhaps a few) aren't is that they don't train the jump, and don't need to learn it to be competitive.

There were quite a few years when women weren't even doing triple-triples, because they didn't need to.

IMO, bring on the quad for the ladies, as well as the 3A. It will move the sport forward.

 

[VGThuy]

Now that they have done away with the mandatory layback spin, I think it is high time for them to consider doing away the mandatory axel jump. Nothing against it, just don't feel why it should warrant special attention anymore.

Instead, I suggest the requirement can be changed to one combo jump, one solo edge jump, and one solo toe jump.

That’s a great point. It’s one of things I never questioned.

 

[antmanb]

But when few men were doing quads, they had the advantage. Elvis Stojko is highly decorated because of it.

The discussion was about allowing quads in the SP. All of Stojko's world titles and the majority of his competitive hardware came before the men were allowed to do a quad jump in the SP (99-00 season I believe).

Actually looking back I think ridiculously the quad was allowed in the SP as the solo jump before the 3A was given as an option for the solo jump (I want to say that happened after 2002).

 

[tony]

There was actually a step back in difficulty levels with the men. A loophole in 1990 allowed the skaters to do 3A+2T(or 3T?), 3A, and 2A as their program content in the mens short program. Interesting that we wouldn't hit similar levels again until the 2000 season with quads being permitted. A year later is when we saw quad combos and 3A as the individual Axel-type jump.

 

[WillyElliot]

I'm also torn about making the short program more specific in requirements- ie. a particular jump take-off as the solo jump like they do in juniors and used to do with the seniors once upon a time. We see a lot of skaters getting away with lazy or incorrect technique, and this would be another motivation to learn the right way.

And it would put an end to junior skaters like last year who could not do the required lutz jump decide to go senior so they can be more competitive with less content (Starr was a perfect example, who went to 4CC last year instead of JrWorlds because she would have been buried at JrWorlds without a 3lutz in the SP, or was it flip last year? But whatever, you know what I mean). I like the idea of changing up with required solo 2/3/4. It would force all skaters to be proficient in all jumps, or pray for good luck that Olympic year for example doesn't require a loop if you're a Yuna Kim.

 

[Kateri]

pray for good luck that Olympic year for example doesn't require a loop if you're a Yuna Kim.

I definitely think this could add a new layer to behind-the-scenes conspiracy theories about which skaters are getting special advantage!

 

[VGThuy]

If a loop was a requirement for the 2010 and/or 2018 Olympics, I bet Kim would have worked on it the previous year in preparation.

 

[Coco]

Requiring an edge jump in the combination would be interesting, and it would be keep things closer after the SP.

 

[Seerek]

Now that they have done away with the mandatory layback spin, I think it is high time for them to consider doing away the mandatory axel jump. Nothing against it, just don't feel why it should warrant special attention anymore.

Interestingly, the axel requirement in the short program goes as far back to its initial introduction as a competition segment in 1972 (single axel variation - tuck or delayed)

 

[gkelly]

the men were allowed to do a quad jump in the SP (99-00 season I believe).

Actually looking back I think ridiculously the quad was allowed in the SP as the solo jump before the 3A was given as an option for the solo jump (I want to say that happened after 2002).

Both changes were made for the 1999 season: 3A was allowed as the required solo axel, and quads were allowed as the solo jump out of steps (but few could actually perform them with preceding steps -- which may be one reason why so few skaters attempted quads in the SP that year).

first SP quad

Assuming the jump out of steps were the same, there was some difference of opinion as to whether 3A+3T and solo 2A should be weighted more or less highly than 3Lz+3T and solo 3A. Some guys who opted for the latter had less reliable 3As and wouldn't have been able to execute it in combination, at least not consistently or with a triple following. IJS solved that dilemma when it became all about the base values and GOEs.

 

[screech]

That's another thing - I hate that there aren't really steps into the solo jump anymore.

 

[tony]

That's another thing - I hate that there aren't really steps into the solo jump anymore.

They took that requirement away since skaters were going into jumps the last several seasons with next to nothing and still pulling off +2's (or +3's).

 

[screech]

They took that requirement away since skaters were going into jumps the last several seasons with next to nothing and still pulling off +2's (or +3's).

I do think that it should be a requirement though - no steps into the jump = invalid element, or required -5 (like a fall). I remember when I was skating you had to do your steps, then you had a maximum amount of time/distance between your last step and your takeoff, or else you got deductions.

 

[Marco]

So when skaters weren't doing steps before the solo jump, they rather removed the requirement instead of penalizing skaters for it. Very unfortunate strategy.

 

[antmanb]

They took that requirement away since skaters were going into jumps the last several seasons with next to nothing and still pulling off +2's (or +3's).

Is that really true?

My observation at the top end of the world rankings was that the best were putting transitions into and out of all of their jumping passes not just the solo jump, and especially to compensate if they failed in the combination and needed to turn the solo jump into the combination.

The top skaters are all trying to wring out the maximum GOE for every element that basically requires all jumps to have transitions going into them.

 

[skatingguy]

Is that really true?

My observation at the top end of the world rankings was that the best were putting transitions into and out of all of their jumping passes not just the solo jump, and especially to compensate if they failed in the combination and needed to turn the solo jump into the combination.

The top skaters are all trying to wring out the maximum GOE for every element that basically requires all jumps to have transitions going into them.

Mikhail Kolyada's Quad Lutz last season had no steps preceding it.
https://youtu.be/wtKg2vFIIC0?t=33

 

[antmanb]

Mikhail Kolyada's Quad Lutz last season had no steps preceding it.
https://youtu.be/wtKg2vFIIC0?t=33

Pointing out one skater who didn't doesn't negate my assertion that at the top end of the world rankings the best were putting transitions before their solo jumps. Kolyada and Chen maybe didn't but Hanyu, Fernandez, Uno, Jin, Aliev and Zhou (with perhaps a long break between but an attempt was made) all did (running down the top list of Men at the Olympics).

 

[skatingguy]

Pointing out one skater who didn't doesn't negate my assertion that at the top end of the world rankings the best were putting transitions before their solo jumps. Kolyada and Chen maybe didn't but Hanyu, Fernandez, Uno, Jin, Aliev and Zhou (with perhaps a long break between but an attempt was made) all did (running down the top list of Men at the Olympics).

It was just an example of a top skater who didn't have any steps leading into the solo jump - not all the top skaters were doing them, most were, and the judges weren't punishing the skaters who didn't.

 

[antmanb]

It was just an example of a top skater who didn't have any steps leading into the solo jump - not all the top skaters were doing them, most were, and the judges weren't punishing the skaters who didn't.

To be fair to the judges in the Kolyada example you gave two of them gave it 0 GOE, and two more gave it +1 GOE. Did the rules in the SP mandate a negative overall GOE with no steps or just a reduction? That quad lutz is a beauty, so it's entirely possible most judges were starting from a +2 or +3 GOE before the reduction (speed in and out, height and air position were all impeccable). The majority did go with +3 or +2 and that can't really be justified.

I still think rather than scrap a rule because a minority of skaters weren't doing it, it would have been better to enforce the penalty for failure to do it.

Seems arse about face to change the scoring system rather than educate judges.

 

[gkelly]

My understanding about why the requirement was introduced in the first place was to encourage skaters to develop the skill to do their jumps (doubles, originally) without long preparations, and with the hopes that skaters would also demonstrate that ability in the freeskate.

And that the reason for removing the requirement was that the IJS GOE bullets encouraged skaters to include steps and other moves preceding any or all jumps in either program, and many skaters were indeed including a lot more connecting moves/steps into more jumps thanks to GOE rewards than had been the case when the SP requirement was the only incentive.

And ever since 1999 the steps were often negligible when the solo jump was a quad.

Perhaps, although I haven't read this anywhere explicitly stated, the decision makers felt that the GOE rules did a better job of encouraging that skill in general than the SP solo jump requirements did, and that they didn't want to discourage quad progress in the men's event by enforcing a rule that had been originally intended for double and later triple jumps.

 

[skatingguy]

To be fair to the judges in the Kolyada example you gave two of them gave it 0 GOE, and two more gave it +1 GOE. Did the rules in the SP mandate a negative overall GOE with no steps or just a reduction? That quad lutz is a beauty, so it's entirely possible most judges were starting from a +2 or +3 GOE before the reduction (speed in and out, height and air position were all impeccable). The majority did go with +3 or +2 and that can't really be justified.

No, they didn't have to go into the negative on the GOE, but it should have been maximum 0 because the deduction was supposed to be -3.

I still think rather than scrap a rule because a minority of skaters weren't doing it, it would have been better to enforce the penalty for failure to do it.

Seems arse about face to change the scoring system rather than educate judges.

I think, looking at how the GOE was changed, that the reason to drop the steps requirement was that the punishment for not doing a required element in short program has increased.

 

[Japanfan]

Pointing out one skater who didn't doesn't negate my assertion that at the top end of the world rankings the best were putting transitions before their solo jumps. Kolyada and Chen maybe didn't but Hanyu, Fernandez, Uno, Jin, Aliev and Zhou (with perhaps a long break between but an attempt was made) all did (running down the top list of Men at the Olympics).

That's what always confused me. So many times when commentators said there were steps before a jump, there was a lag between the steps and the jump. In my view, that means the steps don't really come right before the jump.

 

[gkelly]

That's what always confused me. So many times when commentators said there were steps before a jump, there was a lag between the steps and the jump. In my view, that means the steps don't really come right before the jump.

In which case, the judges should have reflected that break with a deduction under 6.0 or GOE reduction under IJS.

Each judge should have in their own mind the same acceptable length of time between the steps and the jump for all skaters, but one judge's cutoff point might be different than another judge's.

Although...they might have had slightly different expectations of the acceptable break before different kinds of jumps, e.g., the lutz should take a little longer after the steps to establish the clear outside edge. In that case, might they also have allowed a little longer for 4T or 4S vs. 3T or 3S?

 

[VGThuy]

In ladies specifically, it seems like once triples were allowed as the solo jump in the SP, the steps changed dramatically and pauses in-between the steps and the solo jump got longer as time went by until we started getting skaters who grew up on IJS and were able to do more steps into the jump. But even with that, let's just say the actual steps were NOT the same sort of steps they were doing when the solo jump had to be a double.