Adam speaks his mind on US leader chosen for the Oympic delegation

I suspect Pence is a nice man who has done much good.

Examples, please?

And does not...yet...have an evolved view of gay being a state of being ...like being white...rather than a choice that is made. He isn't there yet. May not get there...but Adams comments are polarizing and don" T help either man.

You converted to Judaism, right? If Pence were anti-semitic, would you say he does not yet have an evolved view of Jews being human beings equal to non-Jews?

As to Adam's comments being polarizing - then isn't advocating for any rights (women, workers, interest groups) polarizing? Standing up against oppression and injustice by definition sets up a binary for/against situation. I actually wouldn't call Adam's comments polarizing, though, because all he is doing is defending his own and others' human rights. He's not advocating anything radical or preposterous (being LGBQT is not a radical concept in 2018).

In my experience, too many people in 'polite' Canadian society and other societies don't want to stir things up by expressing political stance. They say never discuss politics or religion - but as the saying goes, neutrality always benefits the oppressor, never the oppressed.

And I disagree with you that Adam's comments 'don't help'. They do help LGBQT gay/trans people in general and LGBQT athletes in particular by giving voice to their identity and their legitimacy and entitlement to human rights as persons equal to all others. Every one voice matters! Rosa Parks was just one person!

Given my rabble rousing inclinations (albeit in thoughts and words, more so than actions) and intense dislike and fear of Pence/Trump (no need for elucidation, I'm sure), I fantasize that the whole American team might refuse to meet and greet Pence/Trump at the White House! :scream: Yes, I do get why this will never happen. . .but it was a cool fantasy for a moment.
 
I get Pence from a religious POV. That is the doctrine of his faith. Faiths are ever evolving...well most are. I suspect Pence is a nice man who has done much good. And does not...yet...have an evolved view of gay being a state of being ...like being white...rather than a choice that is made. He isn't there yet. May not get there...but Adams comments are polarizing and don" T help either man.

You know, I just had a thought. I just realised who Pence reminds me of.

Claude Frollo from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, one of the most frightening and underrated Disney villains.

You know why my brain made this connection? Both evil, terrible human beings brainwashed by religion into believing only what they think is right should be. Into thinking that their religion gives them authority to choose other people's lives for them. They show off the evil side of all religion, perfect proof of why religion has no place in politics.
 
And I disagree with you that Adam's comments 'don't help'. They do help LGBQT gay/trans people in general and LGBQT athletes in particular by giving voice to their identity and their legitimacy and entitlement to human rights as persons equal to all others. Every one voice matters!
Just saw this on Twitter - Out gay figure skater Timothy LeDuc is Olympic alternate: https://www.outsports.com/2018/1/17/16885666/timothy-leduc-gay-figure-skater-olympics
“I am so fortunate to have people who have come out before me to pave the way to make it easier for me to be out,” LeDuc said. “People like Rudy Galindo, Eric Radford and Adam Rippon have changed the perception of people being out during their amateur careers.”
...
“It may not be groundbreaking being a gay figure skater, but I want to use this platform I’ve been given in the most positive way I can,” LeDuc said. “I know there are young boys and girls who need someone to voice who they are. I’m hoping some young boy or girl can watch me on TV and think, “OK maybe it is OK to be gay, maybe it is OK to be myself.’”
LeDuc provides examples of the homophobia he faced as a pair guy in this Q&A: http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/qa-timothy-leduc-olympic-figure-skating
 
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And as Howard Zinn and John Lindsay both said, "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism".

Also true

You know, I just had a thought. I just realised who Pence reminds me of.

Claude Frollo from Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame, one of the most frightening and underrated Disney villains.

You know why my brain made this connection? Both evil, terrible human beings brainwashed by religion into believing only what they think is right should be. Into thinking that their religion gives them authority to choose other people's lives for them. They show off the evil side of all religion, perfect proof of why religion has no place in politics.

"He saw corruption everywhere except within" describes Pence to a T. I've said the same thing. Religious fundamentalism is dangerous and this administration is giving more power to Comservative Christians who want religion to dictate the laws. Yet clearly the athletes who don't agree and meet Pence should be shamed. Right. What's unpatriotic and undemocratic is shaming dissenters and blindly pledging loyalty to the government.

As far as Pence being a nice man who has done lots of good, the people of Indiana would say otherwise. He's not very popular over there,
 
Just saw this on Twitter - Out gay figure skater Timothy LeDuc is Olympic alternate: https://www.outsports.com/2018/1/17/16885666/timothy-leduc-gay-figure-skater-olympics

Hey you! I saw this on my news feed 2 days ago and was gonna post it too but didn't know where.. It adds another out gay figure skater which is cool. North America is where they are coming out ...but Europe has a more welcoming culture...thats why Im so surprised its Eric and Matt and Johnny and Jeff and Timothy G and Timothy L and on and on and its all from North America and I believe 0 from Europe... I would think that statistic would be flipped...
 
Hey you! I saw this on my news feed 2 days ago and was gonna post it too but didn't know where.. It adds another out gay figure skater which is cool. North America is where they are coming out ...but Europe has a more welcoming culture...thats why Im so surprised its Eric and Matt and Johnny and Jeff and Timothy G and Timothy L and on and on and its all from North America and I believe 0 from Europe... I would think that statistic would be flipped...

Maybe FS is not as much of a 'gay' sport in Europe? Is coming out as much of a political statement in Western Europe? Certainly in the former Soviet Bloc, figure skating was traditionally not considered an unmasculine activity for men to participate in, and neither was ballet for that matter. I'm not sure what the attitudes are in Western Europe but anyone who knows is welcome to clarify.

Certainly most Western European countries are better than USA for LGBTQ acceptance, but there are exceptions. Italy is behind, France is ok but not that necessarily much better than USA. Most of Eastern Europe (with the exception of a few countries like Czech Republic and Estonia) leave much to be desired regarding LGBTQ rights.
 
Hey you! I saw this on my news feed 2 days ago and was gonna post it too but didn't know where.. It adds another out gay figure skater which is cool. North America is where they are coming out ...but Europe has a more welcoming culture...thats why Im so surprised its Eric and Matt and Johnny and Jeff and Timothy G and Timothy L and on and on and its all from North America and I believe 0 from Europe... I would think that statistic would be flipped...

Canada isn’t the US:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Canada
“Canada has frequently been referred to as one of the most gay-friendly countries in the world”
 
^^^^ huh, yeah and?

I said North America... all the out gay men are from North America I was stating. Europe has a whopping total of 0 I believe, and Europe (yes, Western. OF COURSE Im not talking about romania, latvia, hungary, etc) has always been much further ahead of US AND Canada.
 
Examples, please?

Quick look gave me this:
Upon becoming Governor of Indiana in January 2013, Pence initiated the largest tax cut in Indiana's history and pushed for more funding for education initiatives. Pence signed bills intended to restrict abortions, including one that prohibited abortions if the reason for the procedure was the fetus's race, gender, or disability.[5] After Pence signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, he encountered fierce resistance from moderate members of his party, the business community, and LGBT advocates. Shortly thereafter, he signed legislation banning discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender identity, and other criteria.
You converted to Judaism, right? If Pence were anti-semitic, would you say he does not yet have an evolved view of Jews being human beings equal to non-Jews?
I don't think the two things are equivalent. Pence is not saying gays are less than human (see above). He just thinks it is a condition that can be fixed. He thinks straight is the natural order of things, and he can help people get there. (That is the part that I hope he evolves.)
Pence is not out exterminating people or sterilizing them.
The thing I used to get a lot is Christians trying to "complete" me. This is more along the lines of what Pence thinks/thought. My former Husband was a Born-again evangelical Christian. He and his first wife actually worked for Campus Crusade for Christ. His first wife would go along the beach or be in an elevator, and try to sell people on being a Christian. I asked hubby why does she do that. He said the thing I needed to understand is that being a Christian (for some) is like (in their minds) having the cure for Cancer. And, they want everyone to have it.
Funny you should mention my religion. I don't "look" Jewish I often hear the remarks that people would censor had they known I was a Jew. Once in a riding lesson, one of my riding friends said something and then said from across the arena "Was that antisemitic?" I said "yes" and lesson learned.
As to Adam's comments being polarizing - then isn't advocating for any rights (women, workers, interest groups) polarizing? Standing up against oppression and injustice by definition sets up a binary for/against situation. I actually wouldn't call Adam's comments polarizing, though, because all he is doing is defending his own and others' human rights. He's not advocating anything radical or preposterous (being LGBQT is not a radical concept in 2018).
This from USA Today
The widespread belief that Pence supports gay conversion therapy comes from a statement he made in 2000 on his congressional campaign website: “Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior.” While he didn’t explicitly mention gay conversion therapy, leaders in the LGBT community have said they believe that’s what Pence meant in light of his long-standing opposition to gay rights. In November 2016, the New York Times reported that Pence's spokesman at the time, Marc Lotter, denied that Pence supports the practice.

In my experience, too many people in 'polite' Canadian society and other societies don't want to stir things up by expressing political stance. They say never discuss politics or religion - but as the saying goes, neutrality always benefits the oppressor, never the oppressed. [/QUOTE] And I disagree with you that Adam's comments 'don't help'. They do help LGBQT gay/trans people in general and LGBQT athletes in particular by giving voice to their identity and their legitimacy and entitlement to human rights as persons equal to all others. Every one voice matters! Rosa Parks was just one person!
How does not being present, as an American Olympic Athlete at a presser with the leader of Team USA advance anything? Be there. Be proud of who you are. It is not an endorsement of all that the administration stands for.
Coming out as a gay athlete....good for him. If it makes a difference for one kid it is a marvelous thing! (Do you have any idea how many horse trainers are gay? Does it matter? No. What matters is getting over the jumps faster than anyone else.
Given my rabble rousing inclinations (albeit in thoughts and words, more so than actions) and intense dislike and fear of Pence/Trump (no need for elucidation, I'm sure), I fantasize that the whole American team might refuse to meet and greet Pence/Trump at the White House! :scream: Yes, I do get why this will never happen. . .but it was a cool fantasy for a moment.
Rabble rouser? You?
Let me make sure I get your vision? The entire team of athletes representing the United States of America, refuses to meet with the "elected by the people" vice-president of their country, and this affects meaningful dialogue and change? In which world? You think Figure Skating has lost popularity..........just wait 'til that happens! Who do you think funds US athletes so they can go to the OLYS? That would be Americans. With all kinds of opinions, thoughts, beliefs and views. Regular Americans who give to the Oly committee are supporting athletes so they can realize their dream....not their political view.

Please do not hold my lack of formatting skills against me.
 
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^^^^ huh, yeah and?

I said North America... all the out gay men are from North America I was stating. Europe has a whopping total of 0 I believe, and Europe (yes, Western. OF COURSE Im not talking about romania, latvia, hungary, etc) has always been much further ahead of US AND Canada.

I don’t disagree about where out gay men are from, but you can’t lump Canada and the US together that easily on LBGT issues. For example, same sex marriage was approved in Canada 10 years before it was in the US. (And 8 years before France). I’m also pretty sure that Eric Radford would have no problem meeting with any of our Govt Leaders. I’m not arguing about Europe, I just don’t think it’s fair to put Canada in the same category as the US.
 
Thank you @Sylvia for the links on LeDuc. I think this quote from his article--which expresses a similar sentiment to things Rippon has said--is powerful:

“It may not be groundbreaking being a gay figure skater, but I want to use this platform I’ve been given in the most positive way I can,” LeDuc said. “I know there are young boys and girls who need someone to voice who they are. I’m hoping some young boy or girl can watch me on TV and think, “OK maybe it is OK to be gay, maybe it is OK to be myself.’"

To the people posting in this thread who have made comments explicitly or implicitly saying that it isn't okay for LeDuc or for anyone to use their platform as a (however well-known) public figure to do this, I say: Our politics are incompatible on this one.
 
Quick look gave me this:
Upon becoming Governor of Indiana in January 2013, Pence initiated the largest tax cut in Indiana's history and pushed for more funding for education initiatives. Pence signed bills intended to restrict abortions, including one that prohibited abortions if the reason for the procedure was the fetus's race, gender, or disability.[5] After Pence signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, he encountered fierce resistance from moderate members of his party, the business community, and LGBT advocates. Shortly thereafter, he signed legislation banning discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender identity, and other criteria.

Um, so there is maybe like one good thing in there? (What "education initiatives"?) Otherwise the bills that he wanted were ones to rob women of their right to choose what happens with their own bodies and allow religion even greater power to persecute people based on whatever the religion thinks is wrong - and he only backed down on the religion one because he got backlash for it, not because he thought it was the right thing to do. Is this supposed to be showing us that Pence is a "good man" or just adding proof to the pile of "Pence is horrible" evidence?

Pence is not out exterminating people or sterilizing them.

No, just advocating for their state-sponsored torture. Totally fine with you, right?
 
The idea that Europeans don't just come out because it is so gauche has me :rolleyes:. I mean, didn't Dumbledore come out?
 
I don’t disagree about where out gay men are from, but you can’t lump Canada and the US together that easily on LBGT issues. For example, same sex marriage was approved in Canada 10 years before it was in the US. (And 8 years before France). I’m also pretty sure that Eric Radford would have no problem meeting with any of our Govt Leaders. I’m not arguing about Europe, I just don’t think it’s fair to put Canada in the same category as the US.

I wasnt making a statement about politics.. instead of me creating a thread of USA gay men versus Euros gay men and Canadian gay men versus Euros gay men..I just made 1. Not a big deal.. all the out gay men are from North America.. I wasnt going into a history lesson of how gay rights trickled and progressed from nation to nation to nation.
 
I wasnt making a statement about politics.. instead of me creating a thread of USA gay men versus Euros gay men and Canadian gay men versus Euros gay men..I just made 1. Not a big deal.. all the out gay men are from North America.. I wasnt going into a history lesson of how gay rights trickled and progressed from nation to nation to nation.
Javier Raya and Joti Polizoakis are both publicly out, and I'm pretty sure Massimo Scali came out before he and Faiella retired. So there are definitely not zero out gay European men in skating.
 
Hmmm...maybe I'm just a dumb blond, but aren't most male figure skaters perceived to be gay anyway? I think that MAYBE the pairs or dance guys could be straighter because they get to have body contact with a female.

But still, I don't think your sexual orientation (at least I hope) has anything to do with how well you hit your jumps, transitions, spins and final poses.
 
Hmmmm even tho I agree with Adam speaking his mind (I actually wish more would do that instead of the robots like Lysacek and Abbott) but I do hope in the midst of this he is concentrating 100% on his skating.

I hope this wont distract him....

THIS! Controversy or faux controversy can do that. I remember on the road to Vancouver, JW had that whole reality shtick going on and some thought it took away from his skating
 
Hmmm...maybe I'm just a dumb blond, but aren't most male figure skaters perceived to be gay anyway? I think that MAYBE the pairs or dance guys could be straighter because they get to have body contact with a female.

But still, I don't think your sexual orientation (at least I hope) has anything to do with how well you hit your jumps, transitions, spins and final poses.

But “everybody knowing” without actually saying doesn’t help the young kid in Scranton being bullied. In fact, it’s more harmful: young kid thinks, there is that wonderful men’s skater doing all the things I want to do and skating like I want to, and maybe he’s gay like me? Maybe I can be proud and honest about who I am? Well, he’s not saying much, so maybe I shouldn’t either.... I guess I’ll just keep my mouth shut.

Reminds me of the geniuses who after Adam came out were going oh well, big deal, *I* always
knew. Well, you know what people, maybe it isn’t about *you*....:rolleyes:

And where did anyone in this thread say being gay or straight had anything to do with how well you skate?:confused:
 
Javier Raya and Joti Polizoakis are both publicly out, and I'm pretty sure Massimo Scali came out before he and Faiella retired. So there are definitely not zero out gay European men in skating.

Oh geesh,... my original post said who are competing today. Didn't think we would nit pick something to death and back to life and to death and back to life.

All the gay dudes (I think,99% sure here) who are competing NOW, as in today I believe are from North America. I dont know much about Raya and have never heard of Joti, I'm talking heavy hitters who are on the scene.
 
Oh geesh,... my original post said who are competing today. Didn't think we would nit pick something to death and back to life and to death and back to life.

All the gay dudes (I think,99% sure here) who are competing NOW, as in today I believe are from North America. I dont know much about Raya and have never heard of Joti, I'm talking heavy hitters who are on the scene.
I don't see Oleada and I naming four out European skaters--three of whom are still competing and one of whom is a prominent coach--as nitpicking. Maybe they're not heavy hitters, but we're having a discussion about the need for out role models and these European men are certainly excellent role models for younger skaters, at least in my opinion.

ETA: Jinx! @oleada
 
Oh geesh,... my original post said who are competing today. Didn't think we would nit pick something to death and back to life and to death and back to life.

All the gay dudes (I think,99% sure here) who are competing NOW, as in today I believe are from North America. I dont know much about Raya and have never heard of Joti, I'm talking heavy hitters who are on the scene.

Not to be nitpicky :shuffle:, but heavy hitters or not, Raya, Fenero and Polizoakis are all competing right now.
 
Hmmm...maybe I'm just a dumb blond, but aren't most male figure skaters perceived to be gay anyway?

I've known a few man to have that perception - fortunately my husband is not among them and we can enjoy watching FS together. And that perception clearly reflects homophobia.

WRT to perceptions of gay men in Russia - isn't the male dancer/athlete rather an exalted figure there, regardless of sexual orientation?

I remember reading or hearing that men in ancient Greece (don't remember the exact period) had sex with men as well as women if they liked simply because men were believed to be the superior sex. Being gay was not required. Greece has consequently always been tolerant of gay men - when I lived there in the 80s, gay men were unashamedly out and in the open. Unfortunately I doubt that tolerance extends to lesbians, given that women were/are seen as inferior to men and responsible to take care of/serve them (perhaps that is changing).

I am not saying Russia is the same, just asking whether men are exalted? That's true for most places to a certain extent, but some places more than others.

In the US, FS skating is perceived as a 'feminine' sport, and we've seen the exaltation of many female skaters (Michelle Kwan, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hammel, and so on). I don't think the female FS is similarly exalted in Russia. However, the crop of young lady phenoms is certainly raising the status of the female FSs in the country.
 
Quick look gave me this:

I don't think the two things are equivalent. Pence is not saying gays are less than human (see above). He just thinks it is a condition that can be fixed. He thinks straight is the natural order of things, and he can help people get there. (That is the part that I hope he evolves.)

If there is something wrong with gays in comparison to the 'norm', it does position them as lesser humans unless they get 'fixed'.

Pence is not out exterminating people or sterilizing them.

No, just requiring them to undergo the torture of conversion therapy and denying them the freedom to love and experience intimacy that heterosexuals have.

Funny you should mention my religion. I don't "look" Jewish I often hear the remarks that people would censor had they known I was a Jew. Once in a riding lesson, one of my riding friends said something and then said from across the arena "Was that antisemitic?" I said "yes" and lesson learned.

In the past I've been told that I don't "seem Jewish", and it seemed like a backhand compliment.

How does not being present, as an American Olympic Athlete at a presser with the leader of Team USA advance anything?

It makes a statement and garners attention, and in so doing, initiates a dialogue. Why would an Olympic athlete refuse to meet the President/VP? What could possibly spur such a decision?

Let me make sure I get your vision? The entire team of athletes representing the United States of America, refuses to meet with the "elected by the people" vice-president of their country, and this affects meaningful dialogue and change? In which world? You think Figure Skating has lost popularity..........just wait 'til that happens!

If you read my post above, the word I used was fantasy. And it's about just how much I hate Pence and Trump. To see them humiliated would be so very satisfying. Unfortunately, Trump has no shame - I think that Pence may, but that he did agree to be the orange one's VP.

Who do you think funds US athletes so they can go to the OLYS? That would be Americans. With all kinds of opinions, thoughts, beliefs and views. Regular Americans who give to the Oly committee are supporting athletes so they can realize their dream....not their political view.

But political views and realities do impact athletes' capacity to realize their dreams in various ways, starting with actually having an opportunity to become an athlete.

Women were not allowed to participate in the ancient Olympic Games, and their participation began in 1900, and SFAIK gradually extended to all sports. They didn't compete in marathons until the 80s.

WRT gay male figure skaters, think of the little boys who figure skate and get bullied/harassed. They might end up quitting. Having a high-profile gay/trans athlete give truth to their reality could inspire them to keep going and strive for excellence.
 
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I saw that it was a fantasy. Yes it was a backhanded compliment and a slur. The emphasis of Adams statement does bring emphasis....And in the gay community it is positive....in the rest of the country it is not positive. I live in SF.......think Gay Pride Parade...does nothing to help the quest for normalization and equality. Imagine La Leche League parading through a city...boobs out babies latched on to emphasize how natural breast feeding is.
 

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