2024 US Nats Men FS: Succession would be The Impossible Dream but Silver is Up For Grabs

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
397
Just like there shouldn't be lucky breaks with promotions and job applications either. It's a subjective process, and there are partially objective guidelines consistently applied to every applicant/employee. etc etc.
Having said that, I often feel like US judges are a bit like the audience, getting carried away with arena sentiments easily. That yes, I think they don't trust Camden and Naumov in the same team.
Jason could still be 4th and get on the world team based on his fifth place at Worlds. But why steal the proper medals from Camden and Maxim?
 

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
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397
Like I said above, what are they going to do once Jason decides he's done for real? The man is almost 30 years old with degrading tech. He's had a lot of injuries and freely admits he can't train like he used to.

Send the ones who have been skating, training, and can continue to improve. They aren't going to get experience watching Worlds from their living rooms.
Exactly. đź‘Ź
 

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
397
I get that everyone is mad that the skaters skating lights out got shortchanged, and rightly so. But that is not related to what Jason does or doesn't do/say in public. Jason is just Jason I am sure.

I'm sure we all in our lives have gotten a lucky break, whether we know about it or not.
No. I've never gotten a lucky break. I've worked hard all my life.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,859
So looking at WS going into 4C's:

Malinin is in first, and not even Cha with a win at 4C's can catch him.

Brown is in 20th, with six skaters above him not competing -- Rizzo, Aymoz, Tomono, Sato, Grassl, and Yamamoto -- so that puts him in 14th until 4C's. There are only three skaters who can pass him at 4C's: Shaidorov with 19+, Jin with 14+, and Chiu with 9+ -- all doable -- which would place him 17th at worst, or just at the "skating later" cusp at last year's WC's, with 34 skaters. @Karen-W would have preliminary predictions of the total number of skaters expected in Montreal, those with minimums and those seeking them in the next few Senior B's.

Pulkinen is the only US Man whose movement at 4C's will matter: he's currently in 17th, or, effectively 11th, with the same six as Brown above him and not skating. Even with a win, he can't reach the last group at 4C's -- only Kagiyama with a 5th or higher can knock out Britschgi -- but he needs to hold off two of Shaidorov, Jin, and Chiu to remain in the penultimate group. Which he'd need to do at Worlds anyway to have any shot at Top 10.

Both Naumov (66 WS) and Torgashev (75) are so far behind, they'd certainly be skating in the earlier half, and it would be the luck of the draw to skate as late as Brown, with much better odds to start in one of the first two groups.
 

jlai

Question everything
Messages
13,802
Jason could still be 4th and get on the world team based on his fifth place at Worlds. But why steal the proper medals from Camden and Maxim?

You get no argument from me on that.

You have never been lucky, even once, all your life? Unlucky you.
Even Nathan Chen needed luck (yes, hard work and talent too)

No. I've never gotten a lucky break. I've worked hard all my life.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
37,859
I've worked super duper hard for much of my working life, if less so recently, but the people who pick my food, usually living in horrible places and subject to wage theft, work super, super, super duper hard. The migrant workers who built Olympic and World Cup venues across the world worked super, super, duper hard for subsistence, if they survived. I got to live in first world countries with infrastructure while working super hard, without fear of being bombed, being raped by the latest band of soldiers, being tortured, and being killed. I never had to live under apartheid.

So I consider myself extremely lucky, and no more deserving than many people around the universe who work super, super, super, super duper hard and have never seen a break.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,859
I didn't see shots of a "wait-and-see" couch, and I would not be surprised if, after his skate, where he was already ahead of Pulkinen, whose skate he didn't see, he was being interviewed, texting to friends and relatives who weren't there, and hanging out with Wilson. Unless an interviewer asked him how he felt about robbing other skaters, or having the judges do it on his behalf, why would he have any reason to be unusually subdued?

Plenty of people don't like his skating or his personality and have been predicting his demise for a decade. What else is new?
 

PRlady

Cowardly admin
Staff member
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46,407
I do like his skating and don’t mind his personality but we are not going to get the next group of guys the experience they need with unfair judging. Jason isn’t stupid and should realize his skills are deteriorating and it’s time to go.

I loved my work and I was good at it. But I knew when I was past it in terms of energy level and learning new skills. So I retired. But I think athletes are not so good at realizing when it’s time to go, eg Tom Brady.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
30,209
lol i'm laughing so hard this is so sad

Alexa, play Despacito.

I mean I know even if the placements were reversed, Jason would be going to Worlds anyways. But the scoring is just insanity.

This is my thing. Since they don't have to follow nationals results any more, that SHOULD leave them free to judge what is on the ice instead of manipulating the results to get their desired world team. It doesn't seem like they see it that way, though.
 

jlai

Question everything
Messages
13,802
I do like his skating and don’t mind his personality but we are not going to get the next group of guys the experience they need with unfair judging. Jason isn’t stupid and should realize his skills are deteriorating and it’s time to go.

I loved my work and I was good at it. But I knew when I was past it in terms of energy level and learning new skills. So I retired. But I think athletes are not so good at realizing when it’s time to go, eg Tom Brady.
I think if Naumov didn't place 10th and 11th in his events this season but have more middle-of-the-range results, things might have turned out differently.
I think the judges don't trust Naumov and Camden in the same team.

Very much a shame for Naumov, but I hope Naumov takes away from it the message of needing to deliver more often.
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
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21,916
I think if Naumov didn't place 10th and 11th in his events this season but have more middle-of-the-range results, things might have turned out differently.
I think the judges don't trust Naumov and Camden in the same team.
but they're judging a skating competition not deciding who gets on the world team. Those are two entirely different things.
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
Messages
37,242
So looking at WS going into 4C's:

Malinin is in first, and not even Cha with a win at 4C's can catch him.

Brown is in 20th, with six skaters above him not competing -- Rizzo, Aymoz, Tomono, Sato, Grassl, and Yamamoto -- so that puts him in 14th until 4C's. There are only three skaters who can pass him at 4C's: Shaidorov with 19+, Jin with 14+, and Chiu with 9+ -- all doable -- which would place him 17th at worst, or just at the "skating later" cusp at last year's WC's, with 34 skaters. @Karen-W would have preliminary predictions of the total number of skaters expected in Montreal, those with minimums and those seeking them in the next few Senior B's.

Pulkinen is the only US Man whose movement at 4C's will matter: he's currently in 17th, or, effectively 11th, with the same six as Brown above him and not skating. Even with a win, he can't reach the last group at 4C's -- only Kagiyama with a 5th or higher can knock out Britschgi -- but he needs to hold off two of Shaidorov, Jin, and Chiu to remain in the penultimate group. Which he'd need to do at Worlds anyway to have any shot at Top 10.

Both Naumov (66 WS) and Torgashev (75) are so far behind, they'd certainly be skating in the earlier half, and it would be the luck of the draw to skate as late as Brown, with much better odds to start in one of the first two groups.
47 men at most, by my best estimation - 39 have the mins (1 of those is Naoki Rossi who hasn't competed since the JGP so I'm not sure if SUI will be able to use its 2nd spot), another 8 need both TES mins.
 

Sally1214

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4,712
An opinion from my husband (who has seen a lot of skating with me over the years but doesn't follow it AT ALL like I do). He and I first saw Jason at the GPF held in Quebec City back in the day when both Jason and Yuzuru were just coming onto the international scene. There was something truly SPECIAL about both of those skaters. Everyone could see it then and, of course, they both developed into the elite skaters they became.

After viewing Jason's freeskate with me today, he feels that:

1) the US judges haven't done either themselves or Jason any favors. Jason is unlikely to do well in the overall standings at Worlds. So, this could hurt the US as far as number of participants in future events.

2) Jason probably should have retired from competitive skating at least 1 year ago (if not sooner). He clearly was not at the top form he was in the past (understandable, given that he is now 29 years old and hasn't been training/competing regularly).

3) Jason is a wonderful skater who has built (over his career) a huge following of fans over the years. It would be a shame if, because of what knowledgeable fans deem unfair scores/placements) people started to "turn off" Jason or "blame him" for unfair judging. Jason didn't give himself the scores ... the judges (for whatever reason) did. This is not his fault.

4) Jason deserves to be appreciated for the wonderful "entertainer" he is and the "rapport" he has with audiences wherever he performs in ice shows. He should leave the "competitive" world behind and reap the benefits of being one of the most talented "showmen" in the professional skating world.

5) It would be a shame if people started to think poorly of him as a person because of a button some judges pushed. He has been blessed with the talent and ability to "light up" an arena filled with people who have turned out for a fun night of skating at an ice show. Perhaps not since "Bowman the Showman" have we seen such an individual. Give him that. He deserves it. And so do we.

For a guy who is on the "outer edge" of following skating these days, I think my hubby had some pretty good opinions.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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36,024
In relation to @Sally1214 observations - or maybe it's more Mr Sally's observations - skaters are always told, you can control what you do on the ice but you can't control what the judges do. I'm not mad at Jason for placing where he did, and I don't blame him for it.

I'm sorry Jason didn't skate better (and he probably is too) but I also think he's been around long enough to know that he got some pretty generous judging. It's not his fault that the judges decided to push him at the expense of skaters who, objectively and subjectively, skated better. But he's not going to get that generous judging every time.

If we should be mad at anyone, it's the judges and officials. I would love to see a public explanation of why some rules appeared to be applied to some skaters' performances but not to others'.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,859
I don't know if this was posted elsewhere, because I searched for "Wong" in a lot of threads, but Jackie Wong and Gracie Gold spoke to Jason Brown during a Zamboni break during Men's practice and posted the video to Twitter this morning:
https://youtu.be/1QnwlCjGTiA?feature=shared&t=5294

Brown said he went back to Impossible Dream because (paraphrase) they -- I think he and Wilson -- watered down "Tarzan" for his current shape, and Rohene Was. Not. Pleased. with it. He did say that he planned to go back to Tarzan. If that's the case, I suspect that Ward is going to be drilling him hard until Montreal, which is what he needs.
 

peibeck

Simply looking
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31,150
Brown said he went back to Impossible Dream because (paraphrase) they -- I think he and Wilson -- watered down "Tarzan" for his current shape, and Rohene Was. Not. Pleased. with it. He did say that he planned to go back to Tarzan. If that's the case, I suspect that Ward is going to be drilling him hard until Montreal, which is what he needs.

Maybe they will work more on the Tarzan program, but Jason trains in Toronto and Rohene is based in Colorado Springs/Monument, CO (unless he's relocated and I'm not aware of it).
 

Sally1214

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,712
With the way everything turned out, maybe the title of this thread should have been 2024 U.S. Nats Men's FS: I'll Tumble For Ya.


Oh, I love Boy George! And, thinking of a lyric from Karma Chameleon...

"I'm a man who doesn't know
how to sell a contradiction"

Oh, I think there was one man there who definitely did!

In all the '80s RDs we've seen this season, not one couple chose any music by Culture Club, did they? Hmm...the Boy got snubbed.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,859
Maybe they will work more on the Tarzan program, but Jason trains in Toronto and Rohene is based in Colorado Springs/Monument, CO (unless he's relocated and I'm not aware of it).
It sounded like they were together, so either one traveled to the other place, or they met in the middle. But I'm sure Ward would have lot to say over video.
 

Sarah

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2,688
Maybe they will work more on the Tarzan program, but Jason trains in Toronto and Rohene is based in Colorado Springs/Monument, CO (unless he's relocated and I'm not aware of it).
I think Rohene may be back in Chicago now? Coaching with Amber Gil.
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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9,364
Jason was surprised with the Button Salchow Trophy in a presentation during the gala last night. Past winners Paul Wylie and John Misha Petkevich presented it to him, and Jason had tears streaming down his face and could barely speak during his acceptance. It was such a wonderful moment. The trophy is going to be awarded every four years now.
 

Simone411

To Boldly Explore Figure Skating Around The World
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19,646
In relation to @Sally1214 observations - or maybe it's more Mr Sally's observations - skaters are always told, you can control what you do on the ice but you can't control what the judges do. I'm not mad at Jason for placing where he did, and I don't blame him for it.

I'm sorry Jason didn't skate better (and he probably is too) but I also think he's been around long enough to know that he got some pretty generous judging. It's not his fault that the judges decided to push him at the expense of skaters who, objectively and subjectively, skated better. But he's not going to get that generous judging every time.

If we should be mad at anyone, it's the judges and officials. I would love to see a public explanation of why some rules appeared to be applied to some skaters' performances but not to others'.
There's something else I've thought about, too, thanks to you and @Sally1214. I wish Jason would really consider competing in Solo Dance. With his presentation skills and artistry, he would excel in it. He should really think about it as much as he loves to skate.
 

Former Lurve Goddess

Well-Known Member
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1,804
Oh, I love Boy George! And, thinking of a lyric from Karma Chameleon...

"I'm a man who doesn't know
how to sell a contradiction"

Oh, I think there was one man there who definitely did!

In all the '80s RDs we've seen this season, not one couple chose any music by Culture Club, did they? Hmm...the Boy got snubbed.
I was so hoping for a Culture Club RD from a team who would go full on Boy George in their costuming.
 

SkateFanBerlin

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,611
There is something endearing the men do when they`ve skated better than expected and big score comes up. They sometimes revert to little boys. Camden and I think Jimmy Ma did this last night. Their faces light up and they hug the coach around the waste resting their head in the coaches`nape. Camden wouldn`t let Alex go! It`s very sweet. ( I remember I believe in 2018 Ross Miner doing this when he skated the best he had in 5 years and got the silver)
 
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