2020-21 Canadian Pairs News & Updates

VGThuy

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41,020
I don’t think Eric did anything remotely wrong. Why in heck would he tell his current partner until he was sure it would work out with Meghan.

All it would do is hurt and confuse his partner(before Meghan) and raise issues that would naturally be addressed once a decision was actually made.


This is an elite sport and to get to the top you have to make difficult choices.

It’s not really right IMO to compare this kind of process and decision making with the normal every day things people go through in their lives, like changing jobs( that is going on job interviews before you tell your current boss, you quit), or even leaving a relationship.

Partners in skating are a relationship but not in the same way as a marriage or romantic partnership. A part of it is business.

Really what good would it do telling her beforehand. It would hurt either way.

Best to make sure you have a clear decision to make a clean break rather then make her feel like sloppy seconds.

But in the end, from what he wrote in his book from as honey described it, it seemed that he pretty much characterized her as "sloppy seconds". The fact he was even trying out anyway showed he was considering a change. I also think if we're going to compare it to a business, then you should provide people who are dependent on you in a partnership notice that you that you received an opportunity to try out with someone else so they are put on notice that they should rethink their choices as well.

Like I said, it was his career and he had to look out for no. 1. Telling her ahead of time rather than keeping her in the dark in case it didn't work out and pretending he never sought another partner in Duhamel may have resulted in the things you described, and it would have been right for all of that to happen. It's pretty clear for that partner's sake, he wasn't to be trusted. Maybe he had reasons, but for her, he wasn't going to be the loyal partner.

On the other hand, because there was a danger of that happening, he was "smart" for himself to not tell her. However, it still doesn't make what he did great or admirable and I would still use the words I would use. If not cowardly then it was pretty cunning and inconsiderate for his partner. Not saying it wasn't justifiable or at least understandable, and like I said it really worked out for him, but he had to do something pretty underhanded to get what he wanted in the way he wanted. He was a shark at that moment. I guess that's admirable in a way because people do what they need to do to get ahead, but sharks are called that because they devour people who outlive their usefulness to get what they want. It's complex and interesting, but not 100% positive.


As for Charlie, as long as he told her and the coach before hand, I’m not sure what he did was all that reproachable either.

Lubov chose to leave Cirque. She
wanted another kick at the can and she got it. And unfortunately they failed to achieve the results they were looking for as a team. And quite frankly her jump issues were a big problem from before and continued.

It’s very clear from Charlie’s statement that he was in a massive state of confusion and uncertainty for a few years.

You can’t expect someone who was going through that to make clear choices.

You're right. Charlie clearly cannot make clear choices. Can't wait to see another carefully orchestrated press release about him "sliding" into another choice. Getting out long orchestrated PR statements ahead-of-time seems to be the clearest choice he's able to make.
 
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Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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30,012
Quite honestly, those acting like this was Charlie‘s only option are being disingenuous. Many partnerships end without the partner who was left reporting feeling like they were blindsided or stabbed in the back. Especially when the partner who is leaving is not leaving for a new partner but for retirement. It is quite possible to keep open lines of communication with the people in your life rather than throwing things at them out of nowhere. He could have chosen to communicate with Lubov and his coaches but he chose not to. He also could’ve chosen to communicate with Julianne and he chose not to.

As someone who has lived with mental illness for most of my life, I can tell you that mental illness is not an excuse to treat others as disposable or to hurt others. Yes, Charlie was struggling with something according to him, but that does not let him off the hook. You do not get to treat other people badly because you are hurting. That is a choice that he made and he does not get excused for it.

He is also the one who has chosen this level of publicity and made sure that his story is the one that was presented first and in depth.
 

puglover

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2,728
Probably one of the most difficult things in life is to know when to pull the plug on something/someone that has meant a great deal to you and you are now having serious doubts about. Usually so much has been invested - time, money, emotion - yours, your parents, others - and there is rarely a gracious way to exit without causing hurt - maybe severe hurt. Some people stay too long - and years later view those years as lost and wasted and regret not calling it earlier. Some people give up too easily and years later wish they had stuck it out, showed more grit and mourn the loss of what could have been. It helps when you have a few dozen years under your belt and know yourself a lot better. Charlie is young and still getting to know himself. He is trying to figure himself out and believes this is the right move for him. All the best to him. I am sad for Lubov!
 

okokok777

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Messages
125
It sounds like he was seriously considering retirement around 4CC. IMO that really should have been the time that he started to, at least, discuss his feelings with Liubov and his coaches. The fact that he started writing a press release before informing them is a problem. The fact that he only gave her ~1 day to process the information before the release of said article is another problem.

Does anyone know if Mark Bardei has Canadian citizenship?
 
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Colonel Green

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13,930
Does anyone know if Mark Bardei has Canadian citizenship?
I don't imagine he would, he's only been here a few years. He was presumably working toward it.

If he's looking for another partner, Liubov would be a short-term option, but skating with her would probably elevate his profile.
 

Andora

Skating season ends as baseball season begins
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12,018
Re: Eric and the demise of his partnership with Anne Marie-Giroux (and NOT Rachel Kirkland, as I had assumed...), I think it's fair to say his actions were cowardly, and it's not how I would want to treat others or be treated, professionally or personally.

The problem is it was a) two-- bordering three-- full Olympic games ago and b) this kind of questionable behaviour (and worse) seems to happen often enough, it's accepted as part of the culture. It seems normalized enough in pairs and ice dance, but it's still cowardly and doesn't speak super highly of someone's past character. And for context at the time, after years of skating with the lovely but jump-lite Rachel before placing 8th at 2010 Canadians with Anne, it would be tough to resist a try out with someone who was capable already of side-by-side lutzes. So... I could see his actions being glossed over at the time by many, right wrong or whatever. I know some currently successful dance partnerships came with teeth-gnashing over the way previous partnerships ended. I waver between acknowledging it's part of a culture in the sport that needs work, and that it also is what it is to some regard.

(Thank you all for the unintended trip down memory lane. In trying to validate my memory of seeing Rachel & Eric live at Skate Canada 2008, I scanned the men's results and laaaaaughed, and laaaaaughed...)

As for Charlie, in the end, he has to take care of himself and live his own life. If not for the history with Julianne, + somewhat media-attention-y method both times, who knows what we'd all think? But this pattern of disrespect for those he works with + continued diary-sharing with the media does Charlie no favours, and I'm glad he won't actively be part of the sport for the time being.
 

manhn

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14,770
Do people tell their employer that they are looking for another job, or they went on an interview? I don’t view dance or pairs teams in the same way as relationships. This is about Eric, not Charlie.

I can’t think of any equivalent industry where telling your partner you are looking around for someone better and that partnership still works. Unless posters are saying they should never look around or they have to split up first before looking around. We are placing skaters on a much higher moral ground.
 

VGThuy

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41,020
It really depends on the partnership. If it's the type of partnership where you agree towards a common goal and both parties pooled their resources, time, and energy on the understanding that they will fight for a common goal together, then it would behoove the ousting partner to provide notice. Of course, it would result in a lot of bad things for the partner who tried out if the try-out didn't work out. But then, if it did work out or even if it did, it's still a bad situation for the other partner. I guess we're too busy looking out for what was best for Eric and he has his titles and Olympic medals to justify his behavior, but nobody thought about Anne Marie-Giroux. I guess it depends on whether you think it would be ok in the hypothetical that it didn't work out with Duhamel and he just kept skating with Marie-Giroux under false pretenses and continually lied to her about his commitment to their partnership. With all this comparison to employment and business, I just have to say it's lucky for pairs skaters that they don't have to sign contracts like business partnerships do because they could get sued for such behavior if they were.
 

VGThuy

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41,020
Employee contracts are not exactly fair and equitable. A lot of popular pairs would not have existed if these partners were bound by non-compete clauses.

I'm just saying, people keep bringing up examples from the business world (like telling an employer while looking for another job which is actually not so cut-and-dry and it's not a good comparison and also she's not an employer who can just fill in a vacancy) to defend his choices, and I'm saying if we want to bring that up, then why not bring in other business aspects into it such as contract disputes. So if we move away from that, then it's a quasi-business/personal partnership with its unique color. So the personal part does come into play. Nobody said he made the wrong decision in looking out for what's best for him, but we can comment on the way he went about it. We can sympathize with why he did that way, but we can also sympathize with his partner who was left high-and-dry and if he had it his way, would have been kept in the dark had it not worked out for Duhamel.
 

manhn

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14,770
Sure, but people can feel sorry for the employer who lost an employee too. I have been on both ends. I don’t think I would feel much better if I was told that an employee or assistant or coworker was telling me they were looking around for a new job.
 

VGThuy

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41,020
You won't feel good either way, but at least one choice shows the partner has consideration for the other and there's no underhanded actions. Again, this is more of a partnership than an employer hiring employees. Now, if it was a sort of business where one has specialized skill sets, then it would be closer to the situation but even then the way people go about finding new line of work or received an offer out-of-the-blue or has been head hunted is different. And there's typically a notice period after tending resignation where you give the employer time to find a new person AND you finish up your work projects and commitments to the other employer and help them transition to the new employee. So, it's really different and I don't think we can ignore the personal aspect of this even if it's not quite equitable to a spouse/romantic partner.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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58,281
I can’t think of any equivalent industry where telling your partner you are looking around for someone better and that partnership still works. Unless posters are saying they should never look around or they have to split up first before looking around. We are placing skaters on a much higher moral ground.
Well it's a false equivalency all around.

But I would say, if you aren't happy in the partnership or with skating, you should be communicating with your partner. This is more like a marriage (or serious relationship) than an employment situation. So you need to be working on the relationship all the time. Maybe if Charlie had talked to his partner and coach, they could have made changes. And then he'd feel differently and it would start working. And, if it didn't still work, they could both agree to look for other partners or that the partnership would end on a certain date so the one who wanted to continue could make preparations.

Hiding your feelings, not giving the relationship your best, and then abruptly dissolving the partnership with no notice is the opposite of what people should do in this situation.
 

Dobre

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16,960
Would it be possible for Liubov to get Ukrainian citizenship before the next Olympics?

I know, she is quoted as saying she wants to be a Canadian. And I know there must be a reason(s) that many Ukrainian skaters appear to be leaving rather than entering their federation. And if I were Bardei, I would be hoping for a partner that is planning to stay in the discipline a good long while & develop.

But, nonetheless, would it be possible?
 

starrynight

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3,234
Harley Windsor, but I doubt she'd be able to get Australian citizenship in time for the Olympics.

Nah, if someone of Lubov's quality wanted to skate with Windsor, the citizenship would be expressed through in time for the Olympics. I'd bet on it. (Same thing was arranged for Alexandrovskaya).

But that's probably an overly hopeful idea, as Lubov has a finance in Canada etc. Alexandrovskaya spent time living and training in Australia and I imagine the same would be expected of Lubov too.

Anyway. Probably not worth getting my hopes up. I really do want to see Harley find a new partner.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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14,463
Do people tell their employer that they are looking for another job, or they went on an interview? I don’t view dance or pairs teams in the same way as relationships. This is about Eric, not Charlie.

I can’t think of any equivalent industry where telling your partner you are looking around for someone better and that partnership still works. Unless posters are saying they should never look around or they have to split up first before looking around. We are placing skaters on a much higher moral ground.

Of course not. However after you have your new job secured.....and before public announcements are made.....you make sure you let your employer know!
 

The Observer

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I really enjoy Lubov's skating but the reality is she rarely lands her jumps. Honestly, I think she would be better off going back to Cirque.

Valid point. Lubov has struggled with the SBS jumps in her partnerships with both Dylan and Charlie.

If she is going to continue pairs, she & her coaches will need to address the jumping issue if she wants to move up the standings.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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6,277
Speaking of Charlie and Eric, and my memory is a bit hazy on this because I haven't read the book in a decade or so. I am reminded of a section from The Second Mark by Joy Goodwin, which details David Pelletier's and Jamie Sale's eventual partnership.

Apparently David's previous partner, Allison Gaylor, was seen crying in the stands as he was trying out with Sale for the first time.

At that point he and Gaylor had barely split up, and she only found out by chance that he had arranged a try-out with Sale.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,644
I think Pairs and Dance are like business relationships, but more like partnerships or co-investors/founders than employer/employee. To succeed, they both have to bring something balanced to the table, and the obligations, in my opinion, are the legal one, to avoid fraud, including entering a partnership by knowing misrepresenting intentions, and fulfill existing contracts and financial obligations, and the moral one, to avoid leveraging the existing partnership for the purpose of becoming a direct competitor or deliberately making that person weaker or using it to some other advantage. But I don't think they should be indentured servitude.

Not everyone wants to be subject to a partner's doubt, wavering, or experimentation, but especially if the waverer decides not to make a change. Many people who don't want to know if nothing will come of it, become outraged and say they would have wanted to know in either case, but only (really) when the partner wants to make a change.

I think one of the issues with partnerships is often the explicit idea that they are perpetually ongoing or tied to a long-term goal until the bitter end, unless they are explicitly turned "off," and not the other way around. I remember being astonished when Prancer posted that she and her husband sit down yearly to decide whether to renew, because, isn't the assumption that marriage is forever? (Unless it's premature for practical reasons, like getting your partner residency status or health insurance, or business reasons, like getting your non-partner residency status of health insurance.) Plus, there's always the chance that any ending, milestone, new cycle start, or disruption or will end in a re-evaluation, even immediately after an active and even overly enthusiastically affirmative is given, like buyer's remorse hitting like a ton of bricks.

The problem with partnerships is that there are people involved.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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6,277
I think Pairs and Dance are like business relationships, but more like partnerships or co-investors/founders than employer/employee. To succeed, they both have to bring something balanced to the table, and the obligations, in my opinion, are the legal one, to avoid fraud, including entering a partnership by knowing misrepresenting intentions, and fulfill existing contracts and financial obligations, and the moral one, to avoid leveraging the existing partnership for the purpose of becoming a direct competitor or deliberately making that person weaker or using it to some other advantage. But I don't think they should be indentured servitude.

Not everyone wants to be subject to a partner's doubt, wavering, or experimentation, but especially if the waverer decides not to make a change. Many people who don't want to know if nothing will come of it, become outraged and say they would have wanted to know in either case, but only when the partner wants to make a change.

I think one of the issues with partnerships is often the explicit idea that they are perpetually ongoing or tied to a long-term goal until the bitter end, unless they are explicitly turned "off," and not the other way around. I remember being astonished when Prancer posted that she and her husband sit down yearly to decide whether to renew, because, isn't the assumption that marriage is forever? (Unless it's premature for practical reasons, like getting your partner residency status or health insurance, or business reasons, like getting your non-partner residency status of health insurance.) Plus, there's always the chance that any ending, milestone, new cycle start, or disruption or will end in a re-evaluation, even immediately after an active and even overly enthusiastically affirmative is given, like buyer's remorse hitting like a ton of bricks.

The problem with partnerships is that there are people involved.

Your post reminds me of why some companies have clear employment guidelines. Particularly when it comes to annual reviews. They are constructive at best, and political at worst. I guess the mindset is that we are all expendable and nothing is forever, and I have seen work colleagues become complacent and entitled, only to complain when their performance is suddenly put under the microscope.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,644
Clear employment guidelines, and many evaluation/review systems, are there to keep the employer from being sued.

We are all expendable, unless we run our own businesses or have lifetime/career-long union contracts that haven't been shattered or undermined. Even CEO's who laugh all the way to the bank with their golden parachutes.
 

Xsktrx

Active Member
Messages
167
Is it just me or does this thread sound much like how many marriages or relationships end. When one partner says they want out there is always suspicion that there was already another man or woman already in the picture on the side. The only thing missing is for the person ending the pair to say “it’s not you it’s me”!!!
 

Catherine M

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13,279
Speaking of Charlie and Eric, and my memory is a bit hazy on this because I haven't read the book in a decade or so. I am reminded of a section from The Second Mark by Joy Goodwin, which details David Pelletier's and Jamie Sale's eventual partnership.

Apparently David's previous partner, Allison Gaylor, was seen crying in the stands as he was trying out with Sale for the first time.

At that point he and Gaylor had barely split up, and she only found out by chance that he had arranged a try-out with Sale.

If I remember correctly, at that 1996 tryout, Gaylor & Pelletier were not broken up but the tryout with Sale happened with Allison in the stands. Didn't matter, David stayed with Gaylor for another season (what was he thinking!?!?) and it wasn't till two years later when he switched to Richard Gauthier as a coach and then went to Edmonton in spring 98 to re-tryout with Jamie that their partnership began. Love that Jamie made him come to her the second time around.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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37,644
And I don't understand why an aboriginal Australian wouldn't want a Canadian passport. Neither Australia or Canada prohibits dual citizenship. Of course, it would be easier to compete at higher levels faster competing for Australia.

And why an aboriginal-[nationality] would be more likely to be loyal to a nation that tried to destroy their culture, raped, killed, and impoverished their members, and, in some cases, confined them to reserves while mining their resources, I don't get.
 

VGThuy

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41,020
And I don't understand why an aboriginal Australian wouldn't want a Canadian passport. Neither Australia or Canada prohibits dual citizenship. Of course, it would be easier to compete at higher levels faster competing for Australia.

And why an aboriginal-[nationality] would be more likely to be loyal to a nation that tried to destroy their culture, raped, killed, and impoverished their members, and, in some cases, confined them to reserves while mining their resources, I don't get.

That’s a question that I’d be interested in the answer to as well, but then I don’t think we’ll get a proper one here. We’d have to ask someone who that question relates to, and accept it.
 

starrynight

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3,234
As for Winsdor - am sure there is a girl somwhere in Perm or Ekaterinburg or Izhevsk who would love to help her family out of poverty and out of well.. Izhevsk.

I hope so. Perhaps something was in the pipeline, but things have been set back a bit. I trust that the Australian fed will do as much as they can to get him another partner before the Olympics.

As for Harley - he’s so obviously such an Aussie boy from Sydney in his whole way of being. Lol Culture wise he’s the complete opposite of a Russian pairs girl from Perm, but I’m sure for the sake of results they will get to work (much like he did with Katia). I think Katia enjoyed training in Sydney and being able to go to Bondi etc during time off. It’s such a shame she retired.

Just depends on whether the Russian fed would release another girl. It’s not like Australia can give them much in return.

As for the people assuming Harley has no special feelings for his country - just go have a look at his insta and you will see that he has a very strong connection and love for Australia. He’s also a highly valued and integral member of Team Australia - people like him, Brendan Kerry, Andrew Dodds, Chantelle Kerry, Kailani Craine etc are the backbone of Australian skating.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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6,277
It's interesting how a new teaming can change the look of a partner. Eric, with Kirkland, reminded me of Anton Sikharulidze, Maxim Trankov or Sergei Grinkov. With Duhamel, his style was more like Alexander Zaitzev or Oleg Makarov.
 

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