The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

[yeslek]

Maybe not here on FSU, but I have seen comments in other places that made me think that it might factor in. Granted, some of those were read with google translate last season, so maybe it's just bitter S/B stans and I extrapolated too muc on to general skating fandom.

It is interesting to hear both sides. H/d has size as an advantage as it gives them so much more power than chock and Bates where it is difficult for chock to get as much ice coverage as she is shorter.

 

[deegee]

THISSSSS

Dumped, as usual. I feel I've said this a million times but they should be the one who was close to P/C after RD.

 

[Ka3sha]

It is interesting to hear both sides. H/d has size as an advantage as it gives them so much more power than chock and Bates where it is difficult for chock to get as much ice coverage as she is shorter.

But it is not about size, it’s about skating skills.
And Maddie Hubbell has the best one among current ladies in ice dance, I’d say.

 

[VGThuy]

I have seen plenty of hate online for her body type ( calling her a truck driver)

Honestly, you don’t have to look too hard to find hate for any team. I just think the vast majority of people aren’t using it against her. Maybe it’s because I mostly remember people rooting hard for them and heavily complimenting their looks and chemistry, moreso than most other teams.

 

[bbkenn]

H&D skated a bigger, more complex FD at 110% at US Nationals and still got trounced by ChockSnake who biffed the end of the footwork sequence, had basic transitions going into and out of the twizzles and the one foot sequence, stood on two feet for much of the choregraphic sequence...and people generally seem thrilled with the outcome.

That's ice dancing.

I also thought, as did my husband, that H&D were better; much faster with intricate lifts. We thought CB were not as sharp, much slower... Oh well.

 

[deegee]

But it is not about size, it’s about skating skills.
And Maddie Hubbell has the best one among current ladies in ice dancers, I’d say.

yeah, i can't think of another top team with a lady dancer with stronger skating skills than hubbell.

 

[deegee]

yeah, i can't think of another top team with a lady dancer with stronger skating skills than hubbell.

i think charlene and gabriella are close in depth and steadiness of edge, but behind maddie in power

 

[Dobre]

Blumberg is on the panel of Euros

I'll see your one bag of popcorn & raise you two.

I haven't had time to really catch up on this thread yet. Just wanted to say, LOL, that apparently we both underestimated the necessary number of popcorn bags.

Has Spain not decided their criteria yet for this season? I was assuming it was the combined score from Nationals and Europeans as that was the criteria Spain had last year, I think; plus Hurtado & Khaliavin's look of disappointment with the scores--despite being both good & ahead of Smart & Diaz--seemed to confirm that the number wasn't enough to win the spot at Worlds. (Which it wouldn't be if they needed to make up the gap from, basically, the Nationals RD).

 

[Wyliefan]

yeah, i can't think of another top team with a lady dancer with stronger skating skills than hubbell.

This raises a question -- a couple questions, really -- I've been wanting to ask. It's pretty common around here for the male half of any given dance team to be rated far more highly than the female. Apart from Elena I. and maybe Maddie H., I can't think of another female ice dancer who's widely considered the MVP of her team or even equal to her partner. I am still pretty much in no teknik with dance, but is it really true that the world is full of male dance stars dragging their subpar partners around the ice? And if so, why are most of the guys so much better?

 

[manhn]

Navka and Barbs were considered the stars of their teams. Objectively, it could be a matter that men had to be intrinsically talented to consider ice dance a viable option. Subjectively, women are just more often and easily attacked by critics.

 

[Colonel Green]

Apart from Elena I. and maybe Maddie H., I can't think of another female ice dancer who's widely considered the MVP of her team or even equal to her partner.

It's perhaps not widely discussed, but Laurence F-B is clearly the superior technical skater in her partnership.

 

[Dobre]

is it really true that the world is full of male dance stars dragging their subpar partners around the ice?

No.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Tessa was equal, if not unequivocally considered the MVP of Virtue/Moir. I don’t remember any criticism of Delobel and Schoenfelder’s match (Isabelle got her fair share of body hate, but I don’t remember people saying Olivier was superior).

The woman is often “presented” in dance; that dynamic makes the role more inherently open to criticism.

I think it’s also somewhat due to Belbin/Agosto and the negative reaction to the rise of North American ice dance. North American ice dance at the time was characterized by speed and the incorporation of more acrobatic lifts. Criticism that then followed was to say it was frantic toe pushing and dragging of the lady. Belbin/Agosto’s rise was often said to be due in part to Tanith’s looks and flexibility, not her skating skills. It became a more du jour ice dance critique from there, IMO.

 

[Gris]

Re: the Spanish team selection

The Spanish judge in FD, David Munoz, scored S/D higher than H/K. He also placed P/C 1st while putting S/K to 3rd. Also, this may well be unrelated, but it seems that (didn't check it myself but saw a post sharing the screen shot on Twitter) the official account of Spanish Fed commented under Cizeron's instagram post, calling them 'the real winners for us'. Maybe they are hinting that they are team Marie-France and will send S/D? This is just my speculation though and shouldn't be taken seriously.

If I'm the one to make this decision I will choose S/D (despite that I prefer H/K personally). Worlds is at Montreal and S/D has a higher scoring potential and chance at top 10.

 

[happycamper2554]

ThApart from Elena I. and maybe Maddie H., I can't think of another female ice dancer who's widely considered the MVP of her team or even equal to her partner.

No expert, but I've heard it said that Sinitsina has at least caught up or is maybe even better than Katsalapov.

 

[muffinplus]

Re: the Spanish team selection

The Spanish judge in FD, David Munoz, scored S/D higher than H/K. He also placed P/C 1st while putting S/K to 3rd. Also, this may well be unrelated, but it seems that (didn't check it myself but saw a post sharing the screen shot on Twitter) the official account of Spanish Fed commented under Cizeron's instagram post, calling them 'the real winners for us'. Maybe they are hinting that they are team Marie-France and will send S/D? This is just my speculation though and shouldn't be taken seriously.

If I'm the one to make this decision I will choose S/D (despite that I prefer H/K personally). Worlds is at Montreal and S/D has a higher scoring potential and chance at top 10.

Get out the popcorn...

 

[Dobre]

H/K still have the higher SB than S/D. (That's from Ice Star, which I wouldn't make anything of; but also the higher score in both portions of the event at Europeans, which is the only international head-to-head between these two teams this season, correct?)

 

[VGThuy]

The Shibs and the Parsons were well-matched and no one said one was stronger technically than the other. In terms of classic teams, towards the end thanks to injury, Pasha Grishuk was doing the heavy work with her partnership with Evgeny Platov but before his injury they were considered equal. Marina Anissina/Gwendal Peizerat were also well-matched as well. As were Klimova/Ponomarenko.

I actually think it used to be way more common for the female partner to be stronger with some exceptions and I think teams with a stronger female and weaker male have done better historically than vice versa and actually, the teams where the male was stronger than the woman seemed to be criticized a lot more than the converse, which may say something about standards and expectations being unequal across gender lines. Historically speaking I mean.

 

[Wyliefan]

These are some really thoughtful, informative answers. Thanks, everyone!

 

[cgirl8]

Has Spain not decided their criteria yet for this season? I was assuming it was the combined score from Nationals and Europeans as that was the criteria Spain had last year, I think; plus Hurtado & Khaliavin's look of disappointment with the scores--despite being both good & ahead of Smart & Diaz--seemed to confirm that the number wasn't enough to win the spot at Worlds. (Which it wouldn't be if they needed to make up the gap from, basically, the Nationals RD).

The federation will announce which team is assigned to worlds next week. https://twitter.com/Hieloespanol/status/1221448672963125248

 

[VGThuy]

Geez, way to needlessly make both teams be on edge for a week.

 

[Ka3sha]

Maybe not here on FSU, but I have seen comments in other places that made me think that it might factor in. Granted, some of those were read with google translate last season, so maybe it's just bitter S/B stans and I extrapolated too muc on to general skating fandom.

Hmm Bestimianova, Kostomarov... , to name a few

 

[MsZem]

Has Spain not decided their criteria yet for this season? I was assuming it was the combined score from Nationals and Europeans as that was the criteria Spain had last year, I think; plus Hurtado & Khaliavin's look of disappointment with the scores--despite being both good & ahead of Smart & Diaz--seemed to confirm that the number wasn't enough to win the spot at Worlds. (Which it wouldn't be if they needed to make up the gap from, basically, the Nationals RD).

I'm hardly versed in what's going on behind the scenes there, but it seems like there's been a bit of a preference for S/D since the two teams started competing. It's apparent in the way they're scored nationally, and also in the first season when H/K were the stronger team but S/D were sent to Worlds after scoring well at some random lower level competition (possibly the Bavarian Open?). OTOH, H/K did get the edge in the Olympic season, and there were accusations of wrongdoing and at the qualifying international back then (and Smart made some ill-advised comments online).

That second spot at Worlds really needs to happen because both teams are deserving. And I still prefer Hurtado and Diaz together than in their current partnerships. Picasso forever.

 

[heartyxo]

I think S/D have had the better season and I would probably send them, but both can be justified.

 

[MsZem]

I think S/D have had the better season and I would probably send them, but both can be justified.

Exactly. H/K have a higher SB, but it's from Challenger events. S/D scored better on the GP. But H/K medalled and S/D didn't. S/D won the head to head at Nats. H/K won the head to head at Euros. But their TES was lower.

The federation will just do what it wants. As I wrote, I hope whoever is sent can get that second spot, but it'll be a challenge.

 

[heartyxo]

Exactly. H/K have a higher SB, but it's from Challenger events. S/D scored better on the GP. But H/K medalled and S/D didn't. S/D won the head to head at Nats. H/K won the head to head at Euros. But their TES was lower.

The federation will just do what it wants. As I wrote, I hope whoever is sent can get that second spot, but it'll be a challenge.

It’s gonna be super tight around 8-12 I think. Im thinking the GPF 6 will be the top 6 with the Italians 7th. I had the canadanes for 8th but they might not be back in time. Then you have H&B, the Brits, the Spanish team and more teams trying to make the top 10.

 

[MsZem]

It’s gonna be super tight around 8-12 I think. Im thinking the GPF 6 will be the top 6 with the Italians 7th. I had the canadanes for 8th but they might not be back in time. Then you have H&B, the Brits, the Spanish team and more teams trying to make the top 10.

I feel like the Brits have pulled ahead of their competitors - the value of smart music/program choices (see also Chock and Bates).

 

[Dobre]

It’s gonna be super tight around 8-12 I think. Im thinking the GPF 6 will be the top 6 with the Italians 7th. I had the canadanes for 8th but they might not be back in time. Then you have H&B, the Brits, the Spanish team

Zagorski & Guerreiro

And potentially Wang & Liu to play spoiler. (Kaliszek & Spodyriev and Reed & Ambrulevicius probably outside but could get somebody in the RD).

 

[MarieM]

Exactly. H/K have a higher SB, but it's from Challenger events. S/D scored better on the GP. But H/K medalled and S/D didn't. S/D won the head to head at Nats. H/K won the head to head at Euros. But their TES was lower.

The federation will just do what it wants. As I wrote, I hope whoever is sent can get that second spot, but it'll be a challenge.

Euros is unfair because of the level of politiks played there. And considering team Zhulin's power there, S&D were too much at a disadvantage there. Remember how many judges are tight with Gatbois when considering worlds. Zhulin won't be able to play the same game there, and IMO, he'll pay the political price in return too.

 

[MsZem]

Euros is unfair because of the level of politiks played there. And considering team Zhulin's power there, S&D were too much at a disadvantage there. Remember how many judges are tight with Gatbois when considering worlds. Zhulin won't be able to play the same game there, and IMO, he'll pay the political price in return too.

And S/D have at times benefited from being a Montreal team.

Personally I like H/K better and at their best they're superior. But S/D are much more consistent. And neither team has been able to have the sort of breakthrough that the disco Brits did, so they're stuck fighting for that single spot.