U.S. Ladies [#19]: Do You Know the Way to San Jose?

[mag]

So did Karen choreograph this new long herself, or did she go back to Pillay? I know he did her short, but did he also do the Carmen long?

 

[Sylvia]

So did Karen choreograph this new long herself

Yes, she confirmed this on Twitter and then in the local article yesterday.

AFAIK, she visited Pillay in Vancouver in early June for her SP and then worked with him again on Carmen after her first FS to Tosca didn't work out (Karen's written words back in July were "after the [Tosca] program was done, a week later, I felt that the 'spark' never really really lit up").

I believe Karen first worked with Pillay for her Jr./Sr. FS to Miss Saigon in 2013-14 (ETA link): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130812&content_id=56761660&vkey=ice_news
Cindy Stuart and Justin Dillon were credited as her choreographers for the 2014-16 period and Stuart for her 2013-14 SP.

 

[Coco]

Didn't Jonathan Cassar get a credit for her SP as well?

 

[Coco]

My guess is that Angela will receive a second Challenger assignment that likely will give her a bye to Nationals.

The 3 remaining Challengers listed by USFS are Warsaw Cup and Tallinn Trophy next month and Golden Spin of Zagreb in December. Also in the running for a 2nd Challenger assignment, IMO, are Courtney Hicks and Caroline Zhang (who already has a bye due to her 5th place at Nationals).

Apologies if I've missed it but have the final Challenger lineups been announced?

 

[Bellanca]

Mirai cannot let the 3A attempt fully absorb and drive her to complete and utter distraction and/or destruction with the rest of her program. If she lands the 3A, partially lands it, or whatever, quickly forget it. I know easier said than done, but it must be shelved unless such a jump gives the skater forward momentum, and NOT distraction and derailment, as happened here.

What happens in practice does not always dovetail (successfully) into a competition.

Oh well, Mirai should just go for broke in the FS and not worry too much about it. Clean slate, if possible.

 

[Sylvia]

Apologies if I've missed it but have the final Challenger lineups been announced?

Not yet.

Warsaw Cup entries by name were due today and Tallinn Trophy next Friday.

ETA: And Golden Spin entries by name are due "not later than: Friday, November 10, 2017 – 20:00 h (local time Zagreb, Croatia)."

 

[Sylvia]

Oh well, Mirai should just go for broke in the FS and not worry too much about it. Clean slate, if possible.

Yes, I hope Mirai can come out fighting tomorrow and go for everything.

Mariah Bell's 3Lz landing wasn't the best but she decided to add the 3T anyway, which was called <. On the bright side, she received all level 4s on her spins and footwork and landed both her 3F and 2A in the second half to set a new ISU PB of 63.85 in the SP (<0.1 from 6th place and the final group).

 

[Bellanca]

Mariah Bell's 3Lz landing wasn't the best but she decided to add the 3T anyway, which was called <. On the bright side, she received all level 4s on her spins and footwork and landed both her 3F and 2A in the second half to set a new ISU PB of 63.85 in the SP (<0.1 from 6th place and the final group).

Yes! Very happy for Mariah!! She did a great job!!

 

[centerpt1]

Mirai cannot let the 3A attempt fully absorb and drive her to complete and utter distraction and/or destruction with the rest of her program. .

For all the self promotion Tom Z does, he is not great at helping his skaters put together a winning mind set, mind game through a program. This really shows when his skaters are stressed or in World level competition. The only one I remember that could hold it together was Rachael.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Mirai cannot let the 3A attempt fully absorb and drive her to complete and utter distraction and/or destruction with the rest of her program. If she lands the 3A, partially lands it, or whatever, quickly forget it. I know easier said than done, but it must be shelved unless such a jump gives the skater forward momentum, and NOT distraction and derailment, as happened here.

I know...

This time last year she already had SPs 73+



I was NOT expecting that at all.......

 

[Bellanca]

Tom Z does, he is not great at helping his skaters put together a winning mind set, mind game through a program.

Disagree.

This really shows when his skaters are stressed or in World level competition.

No, it doesn't. Tom cannot skate their programs for them. A coach can only control so much.

 

[Willin]

I think Tom Z (for the most part) does a great job at getting his skaters ready for a competition - they show up well trained/conditioned. Whether or not they can skate a whole program without URs or falls under bright lights is a different matter... (And if they have great spins/footwork, it's often not due to Tom Z, but rather previous coaches)

Mirai looked great in her earlier competitions, so this SP might have been a hiccup. I'm not too concerned with one SP being a mess.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I know...

This time last year she already had SPs 73+



I was NOT expecting that at all.......

New 3A in an Olympic Year.........risky business.

 

[Maximillian]

This time last year she already had SPs 73+

And she never came close to that score again the rest of the season. I feel like training and competing the 3A (while also working and training with Tom Z) has given Mirai a new lease on skating. The reality for me as a Mirai fan is that she already made an Olympic team and finished 4th, so while I want her to do well would love to see her compete and make the Olympic team and all that other stuff, at the end of the day, I'm just happy she's still out there competing and didn't end her career on the sour note of Nats. 2014. So I say if she wants to live and die by the 3A, so be it.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

And she never came close to that score again the rest of the season. I feel like training and competing the 3A (while also working and training with Tom Z) has given Mirai a new lease on skating. The reality for me as a Mirai fan is that she already made an Olympic team and finished 4th, so while I want her to do well would love to see her compete and make the Olympic team and all that other stuff, at the end of the day, I'm just happy she's still out there competing and didn't end her career on the sour note of Nats. 2014. So I say if she wants to live and die by the 3A, so be it.

This.

 

[VGThuy]

And she never came close to that score again the rest of the season. I feel like training and competing the 3A (while also working and training with Tom Z) has given Mirai a new lease on skating. The reality for me as a Mirai fan is that she already made an Olympic team and finished 4th, so while I want her to do well would love to see her compete and make the Olympic team and all that other stuff, at the end of the day, I'm just happy she's still out there competing and didn't end her career on the sour note of Nats. 2014. So I say if she wants to live and die by the 3A, so be it.

I'm with you there. I rather have this go big or go home Mirai than the Mirai that bored me for years trying to sneak on to the National team.

 

[wickedwitch]

It's almost hard to believe that this year's SP and last year's SP are the same program. In last year's SP, Mirai was utterly captivating. This year it's a nice 3A (or sometimes a not so nice 3A) in the middle of 2:50 of dullness. Frankly, I wish she had gotten a whole new SP instead of butchering this one.

 

[Bellanca]

So I say if she wants to live and die by the 3A, so be it.

Amen.

 

[Frida80]

I think I should change my name to Ms. Rational, if I keep posting like this. Here goes.

I know everyone had high expectations from Mirai because of her performance at JO. Some people twitter were delusional. Claiming that she could beat Zhenia. Yeah... no.

I’m a Mirai fan, good or bad no matter what. I cheer for her, love her, and support her. So it doesn’t matter to me how she did today. It’s just one day. However, I can explain exactly what happened today.

Mirai had winner’s head. It’s what I call a bad skate that immediately follows winning a big competition unexpectedly or scoring a season’s best unexpectedly. It doesn’t happen just to her, it happens to nearly everyone. Alyssa had a suprise win of nationals in 2011 and then wiped out at 4CC weeks later. I think it’s a combination of the excitement of that accomplishment and the pressure of duplicating distracts skaters the next time. Thankfully, this doesn’t last long. A bad skate when you’re expected to do well has the opposite effect. The next time, they over perform in response.

Next, I think mentally Mirai needs to get more mileage with her SP. Muscle memory is a fickle thing. After repetition, it’s hard to break habits. When you’ve learned a program one way, it’s very hard to change the program when you’ve learned to follow the musical ques for each movement. The program has changed a lot and her mind is still getting used to it. She’s only competed with this layout twice and the first time was in July. She has the jumps in practice, but in the run though she fell on her combo. It just needs to click into place.

Third, this is RUSSIA. This is the GP. AKA Politics R US. There is no way they were going to allow Mirai a clean shot at the podium when it’s being held in reserve for Elena. The 3A has been reviewed and deemed clean by many a person. Some people thought it could go either way. Me? I knew that if she didn’t have it perfect, it would get a call. That’s because they need her as far away from Elena’s score as possible. If it was called clean, it probably would’t Put her in the 60s. That meant, she would be a clean performance away from bronze. Mirai could get a FS score as high as 145 this season. A score in the 200s is hard to beat. As it stands now, Elena could potentially make the podium but only if Carolina falters (high possibility), Kaori is low balled with her FS, Mariah doesn’t challenge, Elizabet is low balled in the FS, etc. Mind you, there will still be politics in NHK. However, everyone is craving a 3A there. Not so much here.

There’s also the issue of Mirai losing focus when she though she landed it. It’s hard to contain your excitement when you think you’ve landed a 3A. She will need to learn how to do it fast though.

Actually, I expect things to go better tomorrow. Why? Because she’s competed with her FS more than her SP. Her layout was designed for the 3A. There’s less pressure now than before. Plus Mirai really is stronger than ever. So I say, Good Luck Mirai! It’s all I can do.

 

[Spun Silver]

Well, I’m not inside her head and dont know what happened, really, but she is still on the way to getting that 3A clean in competition, and there’s a big difference between Japan or a challenger comp and the GP series. I think the journey is just harder than we’d like it to be. Hopefully now that the worst happened she can put it behind her.

I cant believe knowing that Med would follow immediately skating to the same damn music didnt play a tiny part too. Sure hope that doesnt happen again!

 

[haribobo]

I never expect much from the Americans in Russia. Point, blank, and the period. But the FS should be interesting. Very...quite a strong field going by the SP, but then, all the ladies fields are this season.

 

[Bellanca]

but she is still on the way to getting that 3A clean in competition

True. The only thing is (broken record, here) if the rest of the jumps suffer, it won't really matter. Those jumps need to be clean and fully rotated. Landing a 3A is one thing, but not to the detriment of the other jumps, or the flow of the entire program.

Fans would occasionally say this very same thing, in their own way, of course, about Mao and Liza.

Re: Mao, she had a handle on getting the rest of her jumps around until the very end, and while she was reworking her jumps. Oh, sure, she did have UR’s, but not consistently to the point where her scores were too affected. Plus, her basic skating skills were so strong. Mirai does have solid skating skills, but her UR’s are much more prevalent than Mao’s were, for example.

Mirai’s skating skills suffer because the jumps tend to derail the entire program and, so, therefore, she is unable to rely on the other qualities of her skating to help build her score or maintain a score even when the jump(s) get sketchy.

Re: Liza, she had the magical World Champion season and then struggled mightily. Of course, Liza had other issues above and beyond the difficulty of maintaining a 3A and the other required jumps and/or jumping passes.

IMHO, it basically goes back to the ‘don’t put all your eggs in one basket’ gamble. And it is a gamble, for sure.

As mentioned, I have faith in Mirai to regroup and move ahead. For the athlete, sports, more than anything almost require this.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

The 3A has been reviewed and deemed clean by many a person. Some people thought it could go either way. Me? I knew that if she didn’t have it perfect, it would get a call.

Yea. Even Ryan said since she is the only person competing it here it will be reviewed solely because of that alone.

I think that she will for sure move up some spots by tomorrow. Crossing fingers to finish hopefully 5th or 6th overall.

 

[Frida80]

Yea. Even Ryan said since she is the only person competing it here it will be reviewed solely because of that alone.

I think that she will for sure move up some spots by tomorrow. Crossing fingers to finish hopefully 5th to 6th overall.

My impression of Mirai this season, so that she’s skating with a lot more fire. At USIC she was so mad after the SP that she went out and fought for her LP. I hope that means that she will try to finish this comp on her own terms.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Mirai cannot let the 3A attempt fully absorb and drive her to complete and utter distraction and/or destruction with the rest of her program. If she lands the 3A, partially lands it, or whatever, quickly forget it. I know easier said than done, but it must be shelved unless such a jump gives the skater forward momentum, and NOT distraction and derailment, as happened here.

What happens in practice does not always dovetail (successfully) into a competition.

Oh well, Mirai should just go for broke in the FS and not worry too much about it. Clean slate, if possible.

Mirai has NEVER had the ability to move on and forget a mistake. She always unravels even if the mistake was minor and the rest so far was great. Its been her greatest downfall besides the urs themselves.

That's why she needs to abandon this triple axel nonsense and concentrate on skating the basics the best she possibly can (when she does its fantastic). Rotating and landing all her other jumps (something she rarely if ever does) as well as not looking like a zombie for four minutes on ice. That's what will get her on international podiums and send her to the Olympics, not the 3A. On paper, without the 3A, she has all the goods but never puts it on the ice. She needs to do that first before taking such risks.

And if Mirai didn't have the reputation of being a habitual underrotator, as she does, she would likely have been given the credit as it was pretty close. But only a skater who's reputation is clean will be given the benefit of doubt. Unfair, yes, but judging sports have never been totally fair.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Mirai has NEVER had the ability to move on and forget a mistake. She always unravels even if the mistake was minor and the rest so far was great. Its been her greatest downfall besides the urs themselves.

That's why she needs to abandon this triple axel nonsense and concentrate on skating the basics the best she possibly can (when she does its fantastic). Rotating and landing all her other jumps (something she rarely if ever does) as well as not looking like a zombie for four minutes on ice. That's what will get her on international podiums and send her to the Olympics, not the 3A. On paper, without the 3A, she has all the goods but never puts it on the ice. She needs to do that first before taking such risks.

And if Mirai didn't have the reputation of being a habitual underrotator, as she does, she would likely have been given the credit as it was pretty close. But only a skater who's reputation is clean will be given the benefit of doubt. Unfair, yes, but judging sports have never been totally fair.

I agree with all you said, but she unraveled after a fairly good 3A attempt.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I agree with all you said, but she unraveled after a fairly good 3A attempt.

With Mirai even with the most minor of mistakes she suddenly starts giving up. Like Gracie she gives up too fast even though all isn't lost. We've seen in the past that even a jump landed, but sluggish and not totally clean, leads to her tightening up which then of course leads to more minor mistakes and then something bigger.

She doesn't exactly radiate confidence even if recently it seemed she did. Mirai has always been a great practice skater so her confidence in those videos was hardly proof that she finally turned a corner.

It's possible she knew it was borderline and therefore she didn't give herself the energy boost a great landing would have given her. With low confidence borderline probably equals failure even though it shouldn't

 

[Spun Silver]

@NAOTMAA, your statements about Mirai are overgeneralized to say the least.

At the Japan Open this month, she had a big stepout of her opening 3A and went on to complete all her other jumps with no UR calls IIRC.

At the Autumn classic in Sept., she two footed her 3A and then missed her combination, but rather than “unraveling” went on to add a 2T to her lutz. ETA: In the free, she had trouble on her 3 jump combo and fell on her next solo triple but finished her program without a problem.

At 2017 Nats, she had mistakes in her first two jumping passes but not only did her 2A but gave one of her best *performances* of her Chopin SP.

These are all examples from this calendar year. Maybe you’re out of date? At any rate you’re overstating your case.

 

[bardtoob]

New 3A in an Olympic Year.........risky business.

Yeah, well going into this year Mirai probably assumed that Gracie and Ashley were locks for the Olympic Team, so her plan was to compete for one spot with Karen Chen and Mariah Bell. Now it is a little less crowded, but changing the plan is probably not in the books.

Who knows how Mirai will look compared to Bell after tomorrow.

 

[artsciboy]

I think I should change my name to Ms. Rational, if I keep posting like this. Here goes.

I know everyone had high expectations from Mirai because of her performance at JO. Some people twitter were delusional. Claiming that she could beat Zhenia. Yeah... no.

I’m a Mirai fan, good or bad no matter what. I cheer for her, love her, and support her. So it doesn’t matter to me how she did today. It’s just one day. However, I can explain exactly what happened today.

Mirai had winner’s head. It’s what I call a bad skate that immediately follows winning a big competition unexpectedly or scoring a season’s best unexpectedly. It doesn’t happen just to her, it happens to nearly everyone. Alyssa had a suprise win of nationals in 2011 and then wiped out at 4CC weeks later. I think it’s a combination of the excitement of that accomplishment and the pressure of duplicating distracts skaters the next time. Thankfully, this doesn’t last long. A bad skate when you’re expected to do well has the opposite effect. The next time, they over perform in response.

Next, I think mentally Mirai needs to get more mileage with her SP. Muscle memory is a fickle thing. After repetition, it’s hard to break habits. When you’ve learned a program one way, it’s very hard to change the program when you’ve learned to follow the musical ques for each movement. The program has changed a lot and her mind is still getting used to it. She’s only competed with this layout twice and the first time was in July. She has the jumps in practice, but in the run though she fell on her combo. It just needs to click into place.

Third, this is RUSSIA. This is the GP. AKA Politics R US. There is no way they were going to allow Mirai a clean shot at the podium when it’s being held in reserve for Elena. The 3A has been reviewed and deemed clean by many a person. Some people thought it could go either way. Me? I knew that if she didn’t have it perfect, it would get a call. That’s because they need her as far away from Elena’s score as possible. If it was called clean, it probably would’t Put her in the 60s. That meant, she would be a clean performance away from bronze. Mirai could get a FS score as high as 145 this season. A score in the 200s is hard to beat. As it stands now, Elena could potentially make the podium but only if Carolina falters (high possibility), Kaori is low balled with her FS, Mariah doesn’t challenge, Elizabet is low balled in the FS, etc. Mind you, there will still be politics in NHK. However, everyone is craving a 3A there. Not so much here.

There’s also the issue of Mirai losing focus when she though she landed it. It’s hard to contain your excitement when you think you’ve landed a 3A. She will need to learn how to do it fast though.

Actually, I expect things to go better tomorrow. Why? Because she’s competed with her FS more than her SP. Her layout was designed for the 3A. There’s less pressure now than before. Plus Mirai really is stronger than ever. So I say, Good Luck Mirai! It’s all I can do.

I like Mirai - but even if she landed all planned content (8 triples), it is unlikely that she'd score 140 (let alone 145) - the fact that we are in Russia makes no difference. Let's not forget that Alaine Chartrand actually finished in 2nd place in the SP ahead of Medvedeva, etc. back at the Rostelecom Cup in 2015. Sure, the judges/technical controller recognize what country they are in and there's some home court advantage, but at the end of the day, if Mirai delivered she would have been rewarded. And fact is, she didn't - there was a strong case for the 3axel to be underrotated and then she screwed up the remaining two jump elements.

Even if Mirai skated well in the SP or even in the FS later today, her PCS will be marked lower - deservedly so - she has zero expression to her skating, fewer transitions, and oftentimes plods around awkwardly between elements. There also a heaviness to her skating that's reflected in her PCS marks; there's nothing easy to her skating even when you don't factor in her jump challenges. Rather than the 3axel, I was hoping that she would work on this aspect to her skating, but she did not.

I was excited to see Mirai post her success in training and even rotating jumps at the Japan Open, but my expectations for her have remained tempered based on the PCS factor alone. Her performance at the Rostelcom Cup was not unexpected for me - if she debuted on the GP anywhere else, I am not inclined to believe that the result would have necessarily
been different. She was a disaster at her GP debut at Skate Canada last year as well. I want her to do well, but I am resigned to seeing her do well only at the 4CC.