Who the hell would you have sent instead of Bradie? Starr who has 1980's jump content? Lindsay and her underrotation problems?
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U.S. Men 2022-23 news & updates
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Right? Big “you wouldn’t know her, she goes to another school” vibes from this whole line of conversation. I’d also like someone who wants to bring in international panels to judge the U.S. women to explain in detail exactly how that would have impacted the final standings from nationals, the world team selection, or the ultimate showing of the U.S. women at worlds. The skaters that everyone wants to put on the world team instead of Bradie and Amber do not exist. Hope this helps.
Karen-W
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I'm not saying Bradie was any less deserving of her spot than Jason was of his. What I'm saying is that the USFS took a chance on the veterans in both disciplines and it paid off in one, but not in the other.
Let's be real here - had Adam, Keegan, Matteo, and Sota been in better form at Worlds, they'd have probably all beat Jason. They weren't, they didn't and Jason was the beneficiary because of his steady, high level of skating.
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
Get it Amber 🏳️🌈
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I don’t think it has anything to do with the first three being in better form at all, all three of those men are wildly inconsistent as anybody else. Jason did not over compete this season and put out there what he almost always does 95% of the time. Those first three are so inconsistent. It’s just a roll of the dice basically. Lol.
Karen-W
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Precisely.
There are some people here who are acting like Jason is some great savior for the US men, but his placement was as much a roll of the dice as the placement of Tennell (and Glenn for that matter) on the women's side. You win some, you lose some, but it was just as possible that the US could have lost the 3rd spot for the men with Brown there had those other guys skated up to their potential or Brown had a rough competition.
It doesn't matter what could've happened, it didn't and often doesn't in figure skating. Aymoz could've been just outside the medals or not even made the free skate, for example. And Jason is typically a very rock-solid competitor.
And I'm going to repeat- the USFS didn't take any 'chance' in Tennell. She clearly earned her spot to Worlds regardless of the judges looking the other way on tight jumps, just as they have for the last 30+ years.
I really want to know who you think should've been sent. You did this when Jason signed up to compete at Nationals, and I'm pretty sure you were insistent that he was taking spots from others. So who was it, both in men and women, who really lost out here?
Except that there was really nothing chancy about sending Jason. USFS knew how he’d skate, they knew how he’d score, and they knew scores like that would put him in a pretty good position at worlds. Sending Jason Brown is what you do when you don’t want to take a chance. I love Bradie and I don’t think USFS had better options, but her international performance and scores are not that dependable currently.
Right, but that’s what happens every time. There are always a bunch of guys who theoretically can beat him based on planned program content, but only a few actually do because the other ones can’t do the jumps consistently, or succumb to nerves, or are injured. It’s not about which individual skaters in the event can theoretically post scores high enough to beat Jason, it’s about the statistical likelihood that a given number of skaters in an event will post those scores. Sure, he drops way down in the standings if all the other men hit clean programs. But since that literally never happens, it’s a little bit like saying the U.S. would have lost a third spot if aliens broke through the roof and abducted Jason mid-performance. Like, yes, but I think the odds are low enough that we’re gonna be okay.
jlai
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I think Jason is a reliable short program skater who can post a high enough score to be in the final Or pre ultimate group, which was what usfs banked on. Plus high pcs. They were relying on Bradie for the same thing though it didn’t turn out for that one. Oh well you win some and lose some
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
Get it Amber 🏳️🌈
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totes. Seems like to me Bradie for the first time had a mental block by doubling her jumps and popping jumps, not like her. Her thing is just perhaps, getting under rotations, not popping jumps and doubling stuff, maybe was nerve-racking to be on this type of a stage for the first time in a few years.
Rukia
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Bradie said for a long time she was still scared to even pick to jump, afraid she might reinjure herself, so yeah, I can imagine all that anxiety rearing it's head again in one of the most high pressure competitions of the year.
Just taking a look at skatingscores.com, Adam scored 253.11 for 10th place, which is what Jason needed combined with Ilia’s placement to guarantee three spots. Looking back at recent Worlds, Rizzo was just slightly higher (255) last year, but it took under 250 to get 10th in 2019 and 2021, so it’s pretty reasonable to assume 250-255 was the minimum he needed to get 10th. The last time Jason scored lower than that at any international event was 2019, and the last time he scored lower than that at an ISU Championship with the current-5/+5 GOE range was never.
So no, that scenario was not “just as possible.” As long as Ilia did his part, which I personally wasn’t too worried about, those two guys were going to earn three spots. There are always a lot of possibilities for how these things can turn out, but they’re not all equally likely.
Rukia
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In an effort to bring peace to this thread here's Andrew and Jason bedecked in red, white, and blue gear cheering on their fellow US skaters
Sylvia
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Bradie's full quote after her SP is here in the U.S. Women's news thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-women-4-how-dare-you.110065/page-18#post-6411941
ETA - back on topic:
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Sylvia
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skateinfoglace also posted 2 photos (Jason & Andrew were supporting the U.S. pairs): https://www.instagram.com/p/CqFIPx9OyDI/
BittyBug
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Ahem...this is the U.S. MEN's thread. Discussion of U.S. women and related outrage can go here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-women-4-how-dare-you.110065/
And I am like...who are all these women being discussed in the US MEN 2022-2023 thread?
Jason has explained the reasons he decided to come back. He didn't want to end with the Olympics because there wasn't much of an audience and his family couldn't be there. Also, after he spent time relaxing, touring, and choreographing, he trained and competed in the Japan Open. That's when he started thinking that he'd actually like to compete some more and talked to his coach about it. He also said that he wants to continue doing some other skating-related things while also competing. He's not going to have a singular focus on competing. (So, for example, he might not do two GPS and Four Continents.) He also hasn't made a decision for sure about competing next season. When he was asked about it recently, he said that, if he had to decide that day, he would compete next season. Who knows how he's feeling right after a great Worlds.
I don't know what you consider "stupid," but he has had injury problems that he clearly didn't want to discuss publicly and he has indicated in an audio interview that he is going to go back to practicing quads now that he is healthy. This isn't me speculating. Whether he actually ends up doing that is another issue. Whether that would be "stupid" is in the eye of the beholder.
Your antipathy towards Jason is well-known, so I don't expect facts to enter into your thinking. But, even if, by some odd chance, all four of those guys had been on this week and finished above Jason, the U.S. still would have earned three spots. It's math. And he rarely has "rough competitions." If you take his placement at any of his Worlds or Olympics (he finished 6th in Beijing just last year with so many quadsters competing) his placement, combined with Ilia's, would have been high enough to qualify three men. This doesn't make him a "savior."
It does make him a very consistent competitor who places well.So, no, it's not "just as possible" that the U.S. could have lost a spot with Jason competing.
Well, I don’t think it’s stupid of him to try it, if he’s feeling good and wants to give it a shot. I’m guessing there were other factors at play with the injuries besides just training quads, although I’m sure they were a significant part of the issue. Jason seems to be in a “let’s give this a shot and see if it works for the life I want to live and the kind of skating I want to do” headspace about pretty much everything now, so I’d trust him to pull back on the quads if they don’t work for him. I doubt he’s going to do anything to majorly jeopardize his future performing opportunities in pursuit of one or two jumps.
Idk, Jason himself is the one who brought up training them again. Ask him.
Honestly if the 4A's as easy for Ilia as it looks, I don't think there's a reason to cut it - he's doing it at the start of the program, so if his stamina's a problem it may make sense to cut one of the quad combos.
Ilia had more of a program than the Russian ladies at the start of the season, but he took some of that out because it affected his stamina for jumps. Even then his programs were a lot more coherent than the generic copy-and-pasted flaily arms and high kicks of Daniil's choreography. While his skating skills leave a lot to be desired compared to the other top men, those are certainly better than the Eteri girls. At least he can do turns and crossovers correctly most of the time.
In the press conference he said a lot about working on PCS - he knows it's his weakness. His parents/coaches have also talked about how they worry he's too focused on jumping. In that sense I feel he'll get his PCS together, but I don't think it will only be a one season thing. Getting to the level of his competitors takes years - and that shows by the fact that those who beat him are much older than him and with a lot more time and experience under their belts.
I feel like in men's PCS is a lot better than in the women's - and especially dance (which was extra atrocious this season for PCS). Yes, this event was the best judged I've seen in that aspect, but I also have never felt that men's had the same number of PCS scores that had me scratching my head or donning tinfoil hats as the other disciplines.I think it's somewhat funny that when the judges make use of the PCS properly more-or-less for once, people are a little annoyed that other skaters who skated cleanly and have infinitely better posture and positions in their jumps and other elements throughout their programs are beating all those quads.
I mean, didn't we circle this for years with how unfair it was when the Russian women were out-TESing everyone else with a lack of a program? Spoiler alert- Ilia has even less of a program than they did
I do think he's driven enough that he will go back and work on these things rather than just assume his PCS will just skyrocket for doing nothing different. He also needs to work on the flow out of the jumps, regardless of how difficult they may be. The GOEs were rightfully very conservative for the jumps he was producing, and the dicey landings were called in a few instances.
Ilia had more of a program than the Russian ladies at the start of the season, but he took some of that out because it affected his stamina for jumps. Even then his programs were a lot more coherent than the generic copy-and-pasted flaily arms and high kicks of Daniil's choreography. While his skating skills leave a lot to be desired compared to the other top men, those are certainly better than the Eteri girls. At least he can do turns and crossovers correctly most of the time.
In the press conference he said a lot about working on PCS - he knows it's his weakness. His parents/coaches have also talked about how they worry he's too focused on jumping. In that sense I feel he'll get his PCS together, but I don't think it will only be a one season thing. Getting to the level of his competitors takes years - and that shows by the fact that those who beat him are much older than him and with a lot more time and experience under their belts.
I think he realizes what people have been telling skaters for years but skaters like Nathan only just made acceptable: not all skaters are balletic and angelic, but you can excuse and hide that with the right music: in this case more modern music. Of course he needs to work on it big time to win, but I also think he can stand to get away with it much more with his current music choices than he could if he went with the Russian classical aesthetic. He'd really be getting murdered in PCS if he tried pretty orchestral music.
mattiecat13
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Perhaps this is heresy, but I was never impressed with Nathan’s “artistry.” The only time he ever showed any expression was during the obligatory hip-hop step sequence during his long program.
DreamSkates
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Of course he will do what wants to no matter what any fan says in a discussion board.
I’m going to guess, based on some previous posts on this thread about him working on quads again, that he might be figuring out what he could do to earn a world medal. He has National, Olympic and Grand Prix medals. Why not give one more year to see if he can gain a quad and possible World podium finish? If points from a quad is all he’s missing (already debated in this thread).
I’m not debating whether he could or couldn’t gain a consistent quad or 2. I’m just saying he may have “unfinished business” so why walk away now if he can keep working toward that goal.
Rukia
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I bet you'll be shocked to discover that you're one of many and it's fine. We don't all have to like the same thing.
clairecloutier
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Ari Zakarian says on sports.ru that Ilia has quints:
Apparently Zakarian is Ilia's agent.
He has also been Plushenko's agent, I think. Not sure where he is based right now.
Ари Закарян: «Малинин сказал, что пятерной прыжок у него уже в кармане. Но делать его он не будет из-за системы судейства»
Ари Закарян сообщил, что Илья Малинин готов делать пятерные прыжки. — Буквально сегодня общались с Ильей по поводу пятерного прыжка, и он сказал, что пятерной у него уже в кармане.
www.sports.ru
Apparently Zakarian is Ilia's agent.
He has also been Plushenko's agent, I think. Not sure where he is based right now.
Vagabond
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And why isn't Kwan one of them?And I am like...who are all these women being discussed in the US MEN 2022-2023 thread?
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Sylvia
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Zakarian visited Malinin in a VA rink and posted a pic of them in February 2022: https://www.instagram.com/p/CZ5EJfPuUjp/Ari Zakarian says on sports.ru that Ilia has quints:
...
Apparently Zakarian is Ilia's agent.
Based on his IG, Zakarian was with his client at 2022 Skate America, 2023 U.S. Nationals, and the Art on Ice/ISU Skating Awards show in Zurich.
Congrats to Ilia. His mission this season is accomplished. First man to land the 4axel ever and at Worlds, and he won a National title, GPF medal and world medal this season plus a couple of GP titles. The judges are rightfully keeping his PCS in check in comparison to other more complete skaters at Worlds and he was right to point out that he should focus more on skating qualities and scale down on jumps for next season. It's OK to be more ambitious this season when he was trying to break out - but now that he has accomplished that, he should reconsider taking out the 4axel or the second 4lutz. His short program has been strong all around since Nationals but his free skate is still a little sloppy - perhaps due to more focus being placed on the quads or simply the duration / more elements in the free skate. Perhaps he should consider keeping his short program and spending the off season working on a new free skate so that he can have a complete set of programs by the time next Nationals / Worlds come around.
Stop asking Jason to return to the quad. There is never any quad to return to. He already said that due to his age he has had to train smart this season. If he wasn't getting the quad consistent when he was younger, he isn't going to get it now. Let's just enjoy his skating while we can. If and when there are 3 US men who can outSCORE him at Nationals, he will naturally get phased out. Before that happens, let's just hope he will continue competitive skating so that we can still enjoy his beautiful skating. Even so, my guess is he will minimize pre-Nationals comps and may not even do GPs, just like this season.
Stop asking Jason to return to the quad. There is never any quad to return to. He already said that due to his age he has had to train smart this season. If he wasn't getting the quad consistent when he was younger, he isn't going to get it now. Let's just enjoy his skating while we can. If and when there are 3 US men who can outSCORE him at Nationals, he will naturally get phased out. Before that happens, let's just hope he will continue competitive skating so that we can still enjoy his beautiful skating. Even so, my guess is he will minimize pre-Nationals comps and may not even do GPs, just like this season.
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He brought up training quads again in a recent interview. Jason is pretty media savvy*; he’s not going to do that if he doesn’t want people discussing it. I agree that nobody should be asking him for quads (or anything else) at this point unless he wants to do them. But when skaters talk about training specific skills, it’s not unreasonable for people to have conversations about the potential implications of that.
(*and frankly, I suspect Jason is media savvy enough that he wants people talking about him when he drops a detail like that. I get that he seems like a sweetheart and he still brings out a protective vibe in a lot of people who have been watching him since he was a kid, myself included - but we are talking about an adult who’s got an academic background in communications. I don’t believe he’s any kind of fool when it comes to gently steering the public conversation about himself.)
Sylvia
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How recent? Can anyone provide a link please?
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