Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[coppertop1]

It’s not really a team then. Because they are all counted separately! Not together. They don’t compete together. It’s not a relay team

Tell us you don't understand how team competition works without actually telling us that

 

[Karen-W]

It's not going to be a 1994 Nationals situation with regard to the points and placement of the skaters who finished behind Valieva in either the Team Event or the Women’s Event. That is NOT how the ISU has handled previous doping violations - the only example we have is the 2000 Euro pairs situation.

Beyond that, bear in mind that there is also the Olympic Pairs Event results that are possibly gong to be changed if Laura Barquero is indeed found guilty of a doping violation once WADA gets around to her case.

The IOC & ISU are going to have to be VERY careful that they handle the results of all three events in question exactly the same, otherwise they are going to open themselves up to lawsuits to CAS from the skaters negatively affected by different approaches.

 

[greenapple]

ETA- Germany (minus H/S in pairs) and Ukraine (minus Shmuratko) competed with skaters in three of the four disciplines in the last Olympic team event. While they were withdrawn prior to the event because of Covid, the teams still competed.

Right, I forgot about that.

If Valieva is disqualified but not the team, it would win the bronze with 54 points not 61 because both her scores would be removed.

 

[coppertop1]

Right, I forgot about that.

If Valieva is disqualified but not the team, it would win the bronze with 54 points not 61 because both her scores would be removed.

Actually, if she is disqualified and then everyone moved up a spot, they would drop to fourth

 

[greenapple]

Actually, if she is disqualified and then everyone moved up a spot, they would drop to fourth

No, Canada scored 53 points so Russia would win the bronze.

 

[BittyBug]

I don’t see how they could justify not moving the women up if Valieva is DQed because the points are awarded based on ranking. If Valieva is DQed then the skater who finished second to her really finished first, etc.

 

[tony]

It's not going to be a 1994 Nationals situation with regard to the points and placement of the skaters who finished behind Valieva in either the Team Event or the Women’s Event. That is NOT how the ISU has handled previous doping violations - the only example we have is the 2000 Euro pairs situation.

Beyond that, bear in mind that there is also the Olympic Pairs Event results that are possibly gong to be changed if Laura Barquero is indeed found guilty of a doping violation once WADA gets around to her case.

The IOC & ISU are going to have to be VERY careful that they handle the results of all three events in question exactly the same, otherwise they are going to open themselves up to lawsuits to CAS from the skaters negatively affected by different approaches.

I don't disagree with the belief that everyone should be moved up, but I don't put anything past the ISU/IOC at this point.

There was also a situation at Junior Worlds in 2010 where a third Chinese team was entered in the pairs event, although the country only qualified two teams. I endlessly asked the ISU why this happened and finally they voided the results of the third-ranked team in the competition, moving everyone else up. So there's another example, while not affecting medals, of everyone moving up. http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/Chinese Pairs.htm

 

[coppertop1]

No, Canada scored 53 points so Russia would win the bronze.

If the women move up, Canada would have 55 points. Russia would have 53.

 

[tony]

No, Canada scored 53 points so Russia would win the bronze.

But this again goes back to whether everyone else moves up. Give Canada an additional point in the women's short and long, and they pass Russia.

 

[caseyedwards]

Tell us you don't understand how team competition works without actually telling us that

What are you talking about

 

[coppertop1]

But this again goes back to whether everyone else moves up. Give Canada an additional point in the women's short and long, and they pass Russia.

Exactly. Canada now has 55.

 

[Karen-W]

I don't disagree with the belief that everyone should be moved up, but I don't put anything past the ISU/IOC at this point.

There was also a situation at Junior Worlds in 2010 where a third Chinese team was entered in the pairs event, although the country only qualified two teams. I endlessly asked the ISU why this happened and finally they voided the results of the third-ranked team in the competition, moving everyone else up. So there's another example, while not affecting medals, of everyone moving up. http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/features/Chinese Pairs.htm

Well, that is a fair point, however there is precedent already established - 2000 Euros and, as you mention, 2010 Jr Worlds, so the ISU has established precedent and it will be hard, IMO, for them to deviate from this, regardless of what the IOC (or, really, Bach, who is nothing more than Putin's puppet) wants.

 

[greenapple]

If the women move up, Canada would have 55 points. Russia would have 53.

Certainly hoping that happens. But I hope more that the Russian team is disqualified. Hard to imagine anyone wants to stand on any podium with them at this point and be forced to interact with them in any way.

 

[tony]

Well, that is a fair point, however there is precedent already established - 2000 Euros and, as you mention, 2010 Jr Worlds, so the ISU has established precedent and it will be hard, IMO, for them to deviate from this, regardless of what the IOC (or, really, Bach, who is nothing more than Putin's puppet) wants.

More recently than B/S, Bazarova/Larionov had their 2007 JGPF gold medal stripped after he also tested positive for a banned substance, and everyone else moved up there as well.

 

[coppertop1]

Well, that is a fair point, however there is precedent already established - 2000 Euros and, as you mention, 2010 Jr Worlds, so the ISU has established precedent and it will be hard, IMO, for them to deviate from this, regardless of what the IOC (or, really, Bach, who is nothing more than Putin's puppet) wants.

Can we just get rid of Bach? He's such a coward

Certainly hoping that happens. But I hope more that the Russian team is disqualified. Hard to imagine anyone wants to stand on any podium with them at this point and be forced to interact with them in any way.

They should be disqualified. That's what happens when you get caught cheating.

 

[Karen-W]

Okay, just so everyone understands how the points work - there are three scenarios being discussed.

1) The current results remain intact:

Rank	Country	M SP	W SP	P SP	ID RD	SP Total	M FS	W FS	P FS	ID FD	Grand Total
1​	Russia	8	10	9	9	36	9	10	10	9	74
2​	United States	10	6	8	10	34	8	7	6	10	65
3​	Japan	9	9	7	4	29	10	9	9	6	63
4​	Canada	3	8	6	7	24	6	8	7	8	53
5​	China	5	1	10	6	22	7	6	8	7	50
6​	Georgia	7	7	5	3	22					22
7​	Italy	6	2	4	8	20					20
8​	Czech Republic	4	3	3	5	15					15
9​	Germany	2	5	0	1	8					8
10​	Ukraine	0	4	2	2	8					8

2) Russia loses Valieva's points from the Women's event, but no other country's placements are revised - 2nd place gets 9 points, 3rd place gets 8 points, etc. In this scenario, the US moves up to gold, Japan up to silver, and Russia drops to bronze.

Rank	Country	M SP	W SP	P SP	ID RD	SP Total	M FS	W FS	P FS	ID FD	Grand Total
1​	United States	10	6	8	10	34	8	7	6	10	65
2​	Japan	9	9	7	4	29	10	9	9	6	63
3​	Russia	8	0	9	9	26	9	0	10	9	54
4​	Canada	3	8	6	7	24	6	8	7	8	53
5​	China	5	1	10	6	22	7	6	8	7	50
6​	Georgia	7	7	5	3	22					22
7​	Italy	6	2	4	8	20					20
8​	Czech Republic	4	3	3	5	15					15
9​	Germany	2	5	0	1	8					8
10​	Ukraine	0	4	2	2	8					8

3) Russia loses Valieva's points from the Women's event, and the skaters who finished behind her move up a placement and receive an additional point for the SP and FS. In this scenario, which is the one where we have the most examples of precedent from the ISU, not only would the US and Japan move up a place, but so would Canada, and Russia would fall off the podium entirely. I really think this is the most likely outcome, no matter how tightly Bach's lips are pressed to Putin's ass.

Rank	Country	M SP	W SP	P SP	ID RD	SP Total	M FS	W FS	P FS	ID FD	Grand Total
1​	United States	10	7	8	10	35	8	8	6	10	67
2​	Japan	9	10	7	4	30	10	10	9	6	65
3​	Canada	3	9	6	7	25	6	9	7	8	55
4​	Russia	8	0	9	9	26	9	0	10	9	54
5​	China	5	2	10	6	23	7	7	8	7	52
6​	Georgia	7	8	5	3	23					23
7​	Italy	6	3	4	8	21					21
8​	Czech Republic	4	4	3	5	16					16
9​	Germany	2	6	0	1	9					9
10​	Ukraine	0	5	2	2	9					9

 

[4rkidz]

Okay, just so everyone understands how the points work - there are three scenarios being discussed.

1) The current results remain intact:

Rank	Country	M SP	W SP	P SP	ID RD	SP Total	M FS	W FS	P FS	ID FD	Grand Total
1​	Russia	8	10	9	9	36	9	10	10	9	74
2​	United States	10	6	8	10	34	8	7	6	10	65
3​	Japan	9	9	7	4	29	10	9	9	6	63
4​	Canada	3	8	6	7	24	6	8	7	8	53
5​	China	5	1	10	6	22	7	6	8	7	50
6​	Georgia	7	7	5	3	22					22
7​	Italy	6	2	4	8	20					20
8​	Czech Republic	4	3	3	5	15					15
9​	Germany	2	5	0	1	8					8
10​	Ukraine	0	4	2	2	8					8

2) Russia loses Valieva's points from the Women's event, but no other country's placements are revised - 2nd place gets 9 points, 3rd place gets 8 points, etc. In this scenario, the US moves up to gold, Japan up to silver, and Russia drops to bronze.

Rank	Country	M SP	W SP	P SP	ID RD	SP Total	M FS	W FS	P FS	ID FD	Grand Total
1​	United States	10	6	8	10	34	8	7	6	10	65
2​	Japan	9	9	7	4	29	10	9	9	6	63
3​	Russia	8	0	9	9	26	9	0	10	9	54
4​	Canada	3	8	6	7	24	6	8	7	8	53
5​	China	5	1	10	6	22	7	6	8	7	50
6​	Georgia	7	7	5	3	22					22
7​	Italy	6	2	4	8	20					20
8​	Czech Republic	4	3	3	5	15					15
9​	Germany	2	5	0	1	8					8
10​	Ukraine	0	4	2	2	8					8

3) Russia loses Valieva's points from the Women's event, and the skaters who finished behind her move up a placement and receive an additional point for the SP and FS. In this scenario, which is the one where we have the most examples of precedent from the ISU, not only would the US and Japan move up a place, but so would Canada, and Russia would fall off the podium entirely. I really think this is the most likely outcome, no matter how tightly Bach's lips are pressed to Putin's ass.

Rank	Country	M SP	W SP	P SP	ID RD	SP Total	M FS	W FS	P FS	ID FD	Grand Total
1​	United States	10	7	8	10	35	8	8	6	10	67
2​	Japan	9	10	7	4	30	10	10	9	6	65
3​	Canada	3	9	6	7	25	6	9	7	8	55
4​	Russia	8	0	9	9	26	9	0	10	9	54
5​	China	5	2	10	6	23	7	7	8	7	52
6​	Georgia	7	8	5	3	23					23
7​	Italy	6	3	4	8	21					21
8​	Czech Republic	4	4	3	5	16					16
9​	Germany	2	6	0	1	9					9
10​	Ukraine	0	5	2	2	9					9

I vote for option 3!

 

[caseyedwards]

Why would CAS disqualify Valieva?

 

[coppertop1]

Why would CAS disqualify Valieva?

Have you been under a rock for the past year?

I vote for option 3!

How about option 4: Russia gets disqualified

 

[caseyedwards]

The most likely thing is the most anti Russian thing

 

[caseyedwards]

Have you been under a rock for the past year?

How about option 4: Russia gets disqualified

Have you been under a rock? This is ridiculous! Look around! I mean be serious. Probably every medal Russia won will be taken away

 

[4rkidz]

Have you been under a rock for the past year?

How about option 4: Russia gets disqualified

That too!

 

[coppertop1]

Have you been under a rock? This is ridiculous! Look around! I mean be serious. Probably every medal Russia won will be taken away

We're all a bunch of meanie heads, right?

 

[caseyedwards]

We're all a bunch of meanie heads, right?

Filled with venomous Russia hate for sure

 

[greenapple]

They should be disqualified. That's what happens when you get caught cheating.

Wikipedia notes that in 2014 three female figure skaters were under investigation: Sotnikova, Volosozhar and Stolbova.

"Volosozhar and Stolbova won gold and silver medals, respectively, in pairs skating. Both also won gold medals in the team event, which also puts the other eight team medalists at risk of losing their golds." I do not know where the person who wrote this got that information from but it would indicate that the entire team would be disqualified if correct.

 

[On My Own]

2) Russia loses Valieva's points from the Women's event, but no other country's placements are revised - 2nd place gets 9 points, 3rd place gets 8 points, etc. In this scenario, the US moves up to gold, Japan up to silver, and Russia drops to bronze.

Hmm, would you not say there's an option four, where they consider a substitution for Valieva - under the assumption that this is what would have happened if Russia hadn't messed up with the urgency of the samples - and then grant ROC 1 point in the SP and 6 points in the LP? Not that the medal colour changes from option 2, but it could be.

 

[greenapple]

Why would CAS disqualify Valieva?

Let me give you 20 doping reasons...

 

[Karen-W]

Filled with venomous Russia hate for sure

Oh, give it a rest. There are at least three examples in this thread of ISU precedent for how to handle a recalculation of the results should a skater or team be disqualified post-event. And that doesn't even take into consideration the many examples of the IOC re-allocating medals and results due to doping violations.

It's hardly a case of hating Russia. Personally, I feel badly for Kondratiuk, since it's through no fault of his that he's likely going to go from being an Olympic champion to no Olympic medal at all. But, that is the precedent that has been established and the notion that there is going to be some other outcome... It didn't happen for the USA with Marion Jones and the relay team, so it seems rather puzzling to me that people here seem to think that Russia is going to get special treatment because they are one of the biggest NOCs and there's lots of sponsorship money there. There's even more sponsorship money coming from the US corporations and the USOPC is just as large and influential as the ROC. The wheels of justice might move slowly, too slowly, but I will be very surprised if the outcome is anything other than USA gold, Japan silver, and Canada bronze.

 

[Karen-W]

Hmm, would you not say there's an option four, where they consider a substitution for Valieva - under the assumption that this is what would have happened if Russia hadn't messed up with the urgency of the samples - and then grant ROC 1 point in the SP and 6 points in the LP? Not that the medal colour changes from option 2, but it could be.

No. Neither the ISU nor the IOC are going to start getting into the hypotheticals. I mean, that begs the question "what if the USA had used Brown instead of Zhou?"

 

[coppertop1]

Wikipedia notes that in 2014 three female figure skaters were under investigation: Sotnikova, Volosozhar and Stolbova.

"Volosozhar and Stolbova won gold and silver medals, respectively, in pairs skating. Both also won gold medals in the team event, which also puts the other eight team medalists at risk of losing their golds." I do not know where the person who wrote this got that information from but it would indicate that the entire team would be disqualified if correct.

Yuna may have been robbed of gold by more than just politics. Sotnikova's sample showed signs of tampering. And Stolbova wasn't allowed to compete in Pyeongchang because of a doping issue. It's ironic how in their paranoia and fixation on winning, Russia winds up literally cheating themselves out of their medals.