Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[VGThuy]

I think a big distinction with 1994 US Nationals other than the obvious (that it was not an Olympic competition with separate remedies governed by a totally different body and that it was 1994 and people are more used to medals and titles changing hands), is the fact that the act that got Tonya disqualified involved taking out another competitor, one who was a co-favorite for the National Title. It involved an even more aggressive act of unsportsmanlike conduct and a more direct act of interfering with the actual competition and its competitors.

IMO, it doesn’t matter that Russia could have easily won with another woman. The fact is, they chose the one who did banned drugs and it’s her scores and her rankings they used to win the gold initially. End of story. IMO, it would be generous to Russia to let the rest of the scores stay and have them still ranked in the competition considering the history of systematic doping and its behavior prior to this Olympics. It would be a gift I could live with but when will enough be enough? How much further can it make a mockery out of everything and just get treated with kid gloves?

 

[caseyedwards]

Yuna may have been robbed of gold by more than just politics. Sotnikova's sample showed signs of tampering. And Stolbova wasn't allowed to compete in Pyeongchang because of a doping issue. It's ironic how in their paranoia and fixation on winning, Russia winds up literally cheating themselves out of their medals.

Valerie fourneyron who banned stolbova and Bukin never gave a reason why she banned them

 

[caseyedwards]

Oh, give it a rest. There are at least three examples in this thread of ISU precedent for how to handle a recalculation of the results should a skater or team be disqualified post-event. And that doesn't even take into consideration the many examples of the IOC re-allocating medals and results due to doping violations.

It's hardly a case of hating Russia. Personally, I feel badly for Kondratiuk, since it's through no fault of his that he's likely going to go from being an Olympic champion to no Olympic medal at all. But, that is the precedent that has been established and the notion that there is going to be some other outcome... It didn't happen for the USA with Marion Jones and the relay team, so it seems rather puzzling to me that people here seem to think that Russia is going to get special treatment because they are one of the biggest NOCs and there's lots of sponsorship money there. There's even more sponsorship money coming from the US corporations and the USOPC is just as large and influential as the ROC. The wheels of justice might move slowly, too slowly, but I will be very surprised if the outcome is anything other than USA gold, Japan silver, and Canada bronze.

lol if Russia had any power in the ioc it wouldn’t be banned! So that’s a joke

With all the American dopers and invasions america was never banned. Gatlin Jones Armstrong and on and on and on

 

[caseyedwards]

I think a big distinction with 1994 US Nationals other than the obvious (that it was not an Olympic competition with separate remedies governed by a totally different body and that it was 1994 and people are more used to medals and titles changing hands), is the fact that the act that got Tonya disqualified involved taking out another competitor, one who was a co-favorite for the National Title. It involved an even more aggressive act of unsportsmanlike conduct and a more direct act of interfering with the actual competition and its competitors.

IMO, it doesn’t matter that Russia could have easily won with another woman. The fact is, they chose the one who did banned drugs and it’s her scores and her rankings they used to win the gold initially. End of story. IMO, it would be generous to Russia to let the rest of the scores stay and have them still ranked in the competition considering the history of systematic doping and its behavior prior to this Olympics. It would be a gift I could live with but when will enough be enough? How much further can it make a mockery out of everything and just get treated with kid gloves?

She never “did” banned drugs. No one even says that. But of course ioc and cas will ban her for life and take away all her medals

 

[kwanfan1818]

No, that's not what I mean at all. If there's no one competing, they get 0 points- not 1. See Hase/Seegert and Shmuratko who didn't compete for their teams.

What I was stating is that the idea that a country has to field an entire set of skaters, to my knowledge, has never been the case and if they only qualify in three of the four disciplines and don't have a pair or dance team or the maximum extra athlete quota is reached, they can still compete with the missing discipline.

You are right. A team can start with entries in three disciplines, as long as they qualify skaters in three disciplines.

They don't even have to use available slots from the Additional Athletes quota even if they have a skater/team that meets the citizenship and TES requirements: they can choose to skate with three.

Volosozhar and Stolbova won gold and silver medals, respectively, in pairs skating. Both also won gold medals in the team event, which also puts the other eight team medalists at risk of losing their golds." I do not know where the person who wrote this got that information from but it would indicate that the entire team would be disqualified if correct.

If Volosozhar and Stolbova were disqualified, Russia would have lost 20 points, 10 each for 1st in the Pairs SP and FS, for a total of 55 points, and, therefore, the gold medal, even if none of the other teams moved up in the standings. If they moved teams up in each Pairs segment, the team standings would have been:

1. Canada 67 (from 65)
2. USA 62 (from 60)
3. Russia 55 (from 75)
4. Italy 54 (from 32)
5. Japan 53 (from 51)

ETA: Similarly, if Valieva's results are removed, Russia would have 54 points, or bronze if no one else moved up, or 4th if Canada gains two with 55.

 

[On My Own]

She never “did” banned drugs. No one even says that. But of course ioc and cas will ban her for life and take away all her medals

Yes, my heart is well and truly broken.

 

[On My Own]

But I hope more that the Russian team is disqualified.

And I hope some who've forgotten that this is what matters more - perhaps due to the excitement of what it might bring their own countries - remember that this is what matters more.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Wow. It’s almost February. Can’t believe it’s been almost an entire year and still no decision. I have a feeling it’s gonna be February of next year and we’re also gonna be commenting about what still going to happen

 

[kwanfan1818]

If Valieva's results are voided and everyone moves up, the podium results will be the same as if the Russian team is disqualified entirely. The only team disqualification will "help" among the finalists is China, which will be 4th, not 5th. They can't retroactively let the 6th place team skate in the final, to see if they could pass anyone.

 

[Hedwig]

And I hope some who've forgotten that this is what matters more - perhaps due to the excitement of what it might bring their own countries - remember that this is what matters more.

I have no horse in the race being from a non skating country so I may be off base but I think the majority just wants fair play and not necessarily a medal for their country.
The cheating and lying and more cheating and not even stopping to dope children from Russla is disgusting and that is what needs to stop.

I think most are in agreement there so there is just not much to discuss and therefore the only thing that can be discussed is what happens under which scenario.

I for one am ready to ban Russia for these repeated offences over many years for the next ten years. And that is without adding in the war on Ukraine which would be reason enough for a long long long ban.
I dont think I will able to cheer for a Russian skater again as long as I live unless they are as integer as Tuktamysheva. And I used to love many a Russian skater. But :bleh to their cheating and lying and lack of compassion.

 

[caseyedwards]

I have no horse in the race being from a non skating country so I may be off base but I think the majority just wants fair play and not necessarily a medal for their country.
The cheating and lying and more cheating and not even stopping to dope children from Russla is disgusting and that is what needs to stop.

I think most are in agreement there so there is just not much to discuss and therefore the only thing that can be discussed is what happens under which scenario.

I for one am ready to ban Russia for these repeated offences over many years for the next ten years. And that is without adding in the war on Ukraine which would be reason enough for a long long long ban.
I dont think I will able to cheer for a Russian skater again as long as I live unless they are as integer as Tuktamysheva. And I used to love many a Russian skater. But :bleh to their cheating and lying and lack of compassion.

But she was banned for meldonium

America wasn’t banned for Iraq and therefore Russia shouldn’t be banned for Ukraine

 

[ChelleC]

But she was banned for meldonium

No, she was not banned. Tutkamysheva took meldonium prior to it becoming a banned substance.

 

[airgelaal]

The most recent case is YouthOlympics 2020 and Team event.

 

[Coco]

Typically, if a relay member tests positive, the entire relay team is disqualified, right? If a basketball or handball player tested positive, the whole team forfeits games that person played in, right?

 

[skatingguy]

Typically, if a relay member tests positive, the entire relay team is disqualified, right? If a basketball or handball player tested positive, the whole team forfeits games that person played in, right?

There have been some exceptions, but generally yes.

 

[coppertop1]

Typically, if a relay member tests positive, the entire relay team is disqualified, right? If a basketball or handball player tested positive, the whole team forfeits games that person played in, right?

That's what happens.

What really disgusts me is Russian fans posting everywhere that figure skating sucks without them, even calling Kaori Sakamoto fat. They have no respect.

 

[Yuri]

What most people are forgetting is that Valieva didn't flunk her drug test at the OLYMPICS. It was at a prior event not run by the ISU or IOC. If she had done so, this would be an open-and-shut case to DQ her from the women's event (moving everyone up). The Olympics Team figure skating event isn't a "true" team event like basketball or hockey, or a swimming relay race, or even a gymnastics all-around team title as it is judged completely separately as the athletes aren't even on the court/ice/field at the same time, so those DQ precedents have little relevance. Valieva had no impact on the men's, pairs, or ice dancing portion of the team event.

Hypothetically, if Valieva has skipped Russian Nationals (a national competition, not international) there would be no drug test to DQ her from Europeans or the Olympics. Since RUSADA didn't expedite her test results from Russian Nationals, the federation didn't know she had tested positive until after the fact for the Team Event--so you can't say they knowingly selected a doped athlete. It's not the fault of the Russian men, pairs, and ice dancing competitors that the regulators at RUSADA screwed up by delaying the release of Valieva's results for so many weeks that an alternative could have been selected to compete in the Olympics team event and women's event. That's why we're here almost one year later. Valieva flunked a drug test in December 2021 for an event that affected her eligibility for an event that took place in February 2022 and there are competitors from all four disciplines impacted. Clearly it's difficult to reach a fair result.

 

[Karen-W]

What most people are forgetting is that Valieva didn't flunk her drug test at the OLYMPICS. It was at a prior event not run by the ISU or IOC. If she had done so, this would be an open-and-shut case to DQ her from the women's event (moving everyone up). The Olympics Team figure skating event isn't a "true" team event like basketball or hockey, or a swimming relay race, or even a gymnastics all-around team title as it is judged completely separately as the athletes aren't even on the court/ice/field at the same time, so those DQ precedents have little relevance. Valieva had no impact on the men's, pairs, or ice dancing portion of the team event.

Ehhhhhhh... I can't really agree that it isn't a "true" team event. It really comes down to the scoring, but we've seen that the points earned by a skater/team in one discipline can certainly impact where the team places overall. For instance, if Komatsubara/Koleto had been more competitive with Wang/Liu in ID, that could have made a difference between placing behind or ahead of the US overall. And, we wouldn't be discussing the possibility of a Canadian bronze had Schizas not skated as well as she did in both segments of the women's portion of the TE. And who knows how things would have played out in the FS had Kazakova/Reviya beat KoKo in the RD, which would have qualified Georgia instead of China.

Hypothetically, if Valieva has skipped Russian Nationals (a national competition, not international) there would be no drug test to DQ her from Europeans or the Olympics. Since RUSADA didn't expedite her test results from Russian Nationals, the federation didn't know she had tested positive until after the fact for the Team Event--so you can't say they knowingly selected a doped athlete. It's not the fault of the Russian men, pairs, and ice dancing competitors that the regulators at RUSADA screwed up by delaying the release of Valieva's results for so many weeks that an alternative could have been selected to compete in the Olympics team event and women's event. That's why we're here almost one year later. Valieva flunked a drug test in December 2021 for an event that took place in February 2022 and there are competitors from all four disciplines impacted. Clearly it's difficult to reach a fair result.

Oh, come on. This is one huge paragraph full of gaslighting and "woe is me" for Kondratiuk, Sinitsina, Katsalapov, Mishina and Galliamov. Sure, it's not their fault that one of their TEAMMATES was doping. But, they all climbed on that podium in the arena and accepted the victory pandas. They've enjoyed, at least in Russia, the spoils of their shared TEAM victory. They can also share in the shame and loss that comes with the knowledge that one of their teammates was doping. NONE of this would be happening if their TEAMMATE hadn't been DOPING. None of your hypotheticals would matter if Kamila Valieva had not been doping. But, she was.

 

[MacMadame]

Team figure skating event isn't a "true" team event like basketball or hockey, or a swimming relay race, or even a gymnastics all-around team title as it is judged completely separately as the athletes aren't even on the court/ice/field at the same time, so those DQ precedents have little relevance.

Um, what? It's definitely like a Gymnastics All-Around Team event. Each athlete competes by themselves and their scores are added up to get a team score.

However, I am very doubtful that Valieva's eventual sentence will include suspension through the Olympics. Euros, yes. Olympics, no. I could be wrong but I think we'd be lucky to get her score dropped from Euros and even less likely that she's be disqualified from the Olympics.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

Hypothetically, if Valieva has skipped Russian Nationals (a national competition, not international) there would be no drug test to DQ her from Europeans or the Olympics. Since RUSADA didn't expedite her test results from Russian Nationals, the federation didn't know she had tested positive until after the fact for the Team Event--so you can't say they knowingly selected a doped athlete. It's not the fault of the Russian men, pairs, and ice dancing competitors that the regulators at RUSADA screwed up by delaying the release of Valieva's results for so many weeks that an alternative could have been selected to compete in the Olympics team event and women's event. That's why we're here almost one year later. Valieva flunked a drug test in December 2021 for an event that affected her eligibility for an event that took place in February 2022 and there are competitors from all four disciplines impacted. Clearly it's difficult to reach a fair result.

All of this is more smokescreen. Valieva DID NOT skip nationals. The federation DID select a doped athlete whether or not they knew it. The figure skating team event is as real as every other event at the games and the skaters are as bound by the rules of participation. The entire team has to accept the consequences of a violation of those rules because that is how it works in a team event.

The only unfairness here would be if the scores of the rest of the team are allowed to stand, and especially if the other women's rankings aren't all moved up, because that would reward cheating and incentivize other teams to try it in the future.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Typically, if a relay member tests positive, the entire relay team is disqualified, right? If a basketball or handball player tested positive, the whole team forfeits games that person played in, right?

Because you can't separate one leg from the race or a player's performance in a sport where the team plays concurrently, and where you can't surgically remove one player's impact on team interaction. Same with synchro events.

You can separate out individual performances that are added together cumulatively to create a whole, leaving the rest intact. An open question would be if there were more contestants than the number of scores counted, if the scores of the next highest non-counting placement would replace the removed scores, and I'm sure there are other questions for other cumulatively scored team events. (Team equestrian?)

 

[rfisher]

I can guarantee that if the Russian fed had those results prior to the start of the team event, Scherbakova or Trusova or both would have skated the team event.

 

[airgelaal]

As I said, in 2020 Sofia Nesterova was disqualified for doping, but her result remained in the team and the team retained the bronze.

 

[Karen-W]

As I said, in 2020 Sofia Nesterova was disqualified for doping, but her result remained in the team and the team retained the bronze.

The main difference, though, between the YOG and the OWG is that the team event was a mixed nations event - the teams were comprised of athletes from different nations.

 

[Lilia A]

Since I see comments comparing our team event to the gymnastics team finals, I looked up the 2000 women's team final official standings to see how China is ranked. Some info: a Chinese gymnast was found guilty of age falsification and all of her results at the Sydney games were cancelled. Anyway, the entire Chinese team was disqualified. No team score and not even a 6th place finish on record. If we follow this example, then ROC would also be DSQ, not 3rd or 4th or even 10th. Also, for everyone using Kamila's age as an excuse that the doping isn't her fault and shouldn't be punished, I can also argue that Dong Fangxiao's fake age and passport wasn't her fault or her responsibility.

 

[tony]

I can guarantee that if the Russian fed had those results prior to the start of the team event, Scherbakova or Trusova or both would have skated the team event.

This is the thing that has never been clarified and what many of us have questioned since the story broke. Why exactly did that sample take so long in transit, and who is at fault for it?

If there is even a 1% chance that Tutberidze thought the sample would be positive, I'm fairly certain Kamila A) would've skipped Europeans to 'prepare' for the Olympics while waiting around for the positive sample to come back and B) not been chosen to do either segment, let alone the both she did in the team event in a situation where the result still wasn't released.

 

[greenapple]

This is the thing that has never been clarified and what many of us have questioned since the story broke. Why exactly did that sample take so long in transit, and who is at fault for it?

Another question is why RUSADA dragged its feet and never flagged the sample as urgent when it was sent to the lab. And when exactly did RUSADA actually send the sample to the lab?

I remember reading an article back then that the lab was hit by COVID and was short staffed.

 

[kwanfan1818]

This is the thing that has never been clarified and what many of us have questioned since the story broke. Why exactly did that sample take so long in transit, and who is at fault for it?

It didn't take long in transit: it was sent to the lab without being marked to be expedited for the Olympics. Had it been, it would have gone to the front of the line. Because it wasn't, the lab got to it after they'd processed the expedited ones, that that timing was during the Olympics.

The lab was having staffing difficulties because of Covid, and they were one of the labs that had to take on the additional processing for a large Russian team, because Russian labs were no longer cleared to.

 

[rfisher]

This is the thing that has never been clarified and what many of us have questioned since the story broke. Why exactly did that sample take so long in transit, and who is at fault for it?

If there is even a 1% chance that Tutberidze thought the sample would be positive, I'm fairly certain Kamila A) would've skipped Europeans to 'prepare' for the Olympics while waiting around for the positive sample to come back and B) not been chosen to do either segment, let alone the both she did in the team event in a situation where the result still wasn't released.

I agree or Kamila would have developed a sudden unfortunate illness and skipped both events. No way would Tutberidze have risked what happened, especially since she had Anna and Sasha. Nor, would the fed when they had Liza in reserve. I have never understood the timing. They had an extremely strong team of women. I totally understood them only picking Valieva for the team event because they had only two substitutions and they had to be dance and men, ergo only one woman. I'd have gone with Valieva as well under those assumptions. But, if they'd had the slightest hint there'd be an issue, they would not have put her in the position to fail. There was zero need to do so. I've never bought into the whole "Tutberidze was the one who doped her" crowd. She's not stupid and she'd know very well they'd get caught given as many events as her skaters were in and as many times they'd all been tested. For years. Valieva had been tested since she was a novice. Over and over and over and over. Maybe they could get by internally in Russia, but those skaters were dominant internationally and tested internationally multiple times. There is no emperical evidence for wide spread doping among the Russian figure skaters. A lot of speculation and perhaps wishful thinking, but no supporting data. I don't think the true story will ever be known.

 

[greenapple]

RUSADA probably believed there would be absolutely no issue with their star, which is why it never bothered to expedite the sample?