Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[antmanb]

The point isn't "look at how amazing this viral video is", rather that these things can have a soft influence over people. CAS panels to my knowledge don't necessarily have legal training. The athletes instead are entitled to legal teams. It's very strange but this is what it is.

Pretty sure that the CAS panel members are all lawyers or judges. I mean, CAS is merely an acronym for "Court of Arbitration for Sport."

Exactly that - they're all mostly lawyers and if they're not practising lawyers they're professors in law: https://www.tas-cas.org/en/arbitration/liste-des-arbitres-liste-generale.html?GenSlct=2&nmIpt=

 

[On My Own]

Pretty sure that the CAS panel members are all lawyers or judges.

OK, then I got it wrong. I hope it works out, but I'm not so sure it will.

 

[MacMadame]

I think it is a tad fair to disqualify the entire ROC team results

But it's the precedent.

 

[coppertop1]

But it's the precedent.

Getting tired of people talking about being fair to Russia when they repeatedly break the rules. What about fairness to the clean athletes?

 

[attyfan]

How long until we know if an appeal will or will not be filed?

 

[MacMadame]

Getting tired of people talking about being fair to Russia when they repeatedly break the rules. What about fairness to the clean athletes?

How is what I said saying we have to be fair to Russia? The precedent is to disqualify the whole team. Do you think Russia wants that?

I think precedent should be followed until and unless WADA et al say that will no longer be the way they handle things.

 

[Alilou]

How is what I said saying we have to be fair to Russia? The precedent is to disqualify the whole team. Do you think Russia wants that?

I think precedent should be followed until and unless WADA et al say that will no longer be the way they handle things.

I think @coppertop1 was responding to @Marco. I also think @Marco meant to say unfair.

 

[coppertop1]

I think @coppertop1 was responding to @Marco. I also think @Marco meant to say unfair.

Yes, that's what I was referring to

 

[skatingfan5]

How is what I said saying we have to be fair to Russia? The precedent is to disqualify the whole team. Do you think Russia wants that?

I think precedent should be followed until and unless WADA et al say that will no longer be the way they handle things.

I think I may have missed what the precedent is for something like this. Similar yet different situations are, for example, if one member of a track or swimming relay team failing a doping test, the entire team result is thrown out. Or if a member of a team sort competed and failed doping, that game/match would be forfeited. In these cases there is no way to separate out the contribution of any single team member. But more analogous to the skating team event, if a gymnast who competed as part of their team failed a doping test, would they really throw out the scores of the entire team or just those of that one gymnast?

 

[vu2019]

I think I may have missed what the precedent is for something like this. Similar yet different situations are, for example, if one member of a track or swimming relay team failing a doping test, the entire team result is thrown out. Or if a member of a team sort competed and failed doping, that game/match would be forfeited. But more analogous to the skating team event, if a gymnast who competed as part of their team failed a doping test, would they really throw out the scores of the entire team or just those of that one gymnast?

I don't know of an example involving doping in the gymnastics team event (if there are any), but there was a situation with the age of one particular gymnast that did result in the whole Chinese team being disqualified (10 years after the fact) in the 2000 Olympics women's team event, rather than just that one gymnast's scores being removed.

Gymnastics at the 2000 Summer Olympics – Women's artistic team all-around - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[skatingfan5]

I don't know of an example involving doping in the gymnastics team event (if there are any), but there was a situation with the age of one particular gymnast that did result in the whole Chinese team being disqualified (10 years after the fact) in the 2000 Olympics women's team event, rather than just that one gymnast's scores being removed.

Gymnastics at the 2000 Summer Olympics – Women's artistic team all-around - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thanks for that example. But in that case, was the athlete herself held to be at fault? Or was it viewed as a violation by the Chinese gymnastic federation? Or perhaps it does not matter?

 

[Tesla]

With the blatant disregard for the rules, the doping, and what they're doing to Ukraine, I have zero sympathy for Russia and Russian athletes.

 

[Sylvia]

Christine Brennan asked Chock & Bates about the team event medals during their pre-Nationals media call today: https://twitter.com/cbrennansports/status/1615832735897059328

Figure skating medal ceremony at 2024 Paris Summer Olympics? "I think Paris would be great, if there's a resolution in that time frame," U.S. team co-captain Evan Bates said just now on USFS zoom. "Going back to an Olympic Games and receiving it in that setting would be ideal."
Added U.S. team co-captain Madison Chock, Bates' ice dance partner: "There's no better place to receive an Olympic medal than an Olympic Games, and to start off the Summer Games hopefully with the closure of receiving our Winter Games medal would be really wonderful."

From Claire's Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ClaireCloutier/status/1615830206778085378

Evan Bates says they're "encouraged by CAS taking action" in regard to the missing Olympic team medal situation.
"It's a really difficult situation that we find ourselves in, one we would never have guessed [at] when we left Beijing," Bates said of still not having the medal situation resolved.
"We wanted so badly to leave Beijing with that gratification, that token of our accomplishment--the medal--that we've worked a lifetime for, and it didn't happen. But I think in our heart, we know it will come." --Bates
"Paris would be great," Bates said of the possibility of receiving their team medals at the opening ceremony of the 2024 Paris Olympics.
Bates: "Part of the disappointment is losing that window of opportunity, when you leave the Olympics and you know you leave with the medal that you've earned. We did earn ours, but we didn't leave with the medal ..."
"... So I think going back to an Olympic Games and receiving it in that setting would be ideal," Bates said. Chock concurred.

 

[Willin]

With the blatant disregard for the rules, the doping, and what they're doing to Ukraine, I have zero sympathy for Russia and Russian athletes.

And for people that have sympathy for the athletes: remember many of them support the war themselves and several have gone to pro-war rallies. Others are used as propaganda less blatantly. And remember their funding is not just from the Russian government - but from the military branch of it.

If they were really so anti-war, they wouldn't take the funding. And they wouldn't compete in a propaganda bait competition series.

 

[On My Own]

And remember their funding is not just from the Russian government - but from the military branch of it.

If they were really so anti-war, they wouldn't take the funding.

I hope to not get into it too much, but this reasoning doesn't hold water for me. Since they want to compete, they take the funding, and they compete only within Russia. Maybe in some people's minds it might be better if Russian athletes quit altogether (remember that this recent war isn't the first thing Russia has done), but it is strange to say that the athletes' stance on war is evident from whether or not they so much as accept the funds from their government.

An equally absurd argument would be saying sports are bad because they direct funding away from much more important avenues like medicine, and therefore athletes are terrible people because they participate in sports.

Athletes are in general privileged, especially when it comes to countries like Russia, I accept that. However, we needn't wash away every bit of nuance when it comes to this. Take issue with Tarasova/Morozov, Sotnikova, Kondratyuk, but it's silly to debate over whether Kolyada for example is or isn't anti-war because he might be participating in the Russian GPs.

 

[MacMadame]

their funding is not just from the Russian government - but from the military branch of it.

I did not realize that. Though for a country that size, this is just a technicality IMO. (Budget money is fungable.) Plus if they weren't paying athletes with that money, they'd have more to spend on rockets and I don't want that either.

 

[coppertop1]

That Skating Show discusses the ongoing scandal

 

[Sylvia]

That Skating Show discusses the ongoing scandal

Kirsten Moore-Towers' tweet yesterday: https://twitter.com/Kirsten_MT/status/1616536989712666626
"Difficult situation to discuss but huge applause for @CBCOlympics for not broadcasting the viral ‘Wednesday’ program without talking about the Olympic athletes still without their medals!"

 

[coppertop1]

Kirsten Moore-Towers' tweet yesterday: https://twitter.com/Kirsten_MT/status/1616536989712666626
"Difficult situation to discuss but huge applause for @CBCOlympics for not broadcasting the viral ‘Wednesday’ program without talking about the Olympic athletes still without their medals!"

It's good that someone discussed it properly and didn't downplay the scandal (looks at you, USA media).

 

[DreamSkates]

I am also curious as to whether RUSADA has the power to sanction Valieva for events outside of Russia. Despite their "no fault" finding, they did strip her of her gold medal for the 2022 Russian national championships and that's a big deal. The only time I remember a national skating title being stripped in the USA is 1994 when the USFSA vacated Tonya Harding's gold medal even though there was no evidence that she knew about the planned attack on Kerrigan in advance. So perhaps it's up to the ISU to punish Valieva for the European Championships (where she tested negative) and the Olympics (again, negative).

I simply don't know what's the fairest actions regarding the team medals at the Olympics. In my former regulatory life, sometimes we needed to try to place all parties so they would be similarly situated to where they would have been in when fixing a prior regulatory failure. To me, if RUSADA had acted timely on the test at Russian Nationals then Valieva likely would not have appeared at the Olympics (and possibly not at Europeans) in the first place. In that situation, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva likely would have been selected to skate at both events--so she's the first injured party (like Michelle Kwan missing the 1994 Olympics due to the Harding situation not being concluded until afterwards). For the team event, Russia would likely have had Shcherbakova and/or Trusova skate instead of Valieva. Given the dominance of Russian women, I don't think anyone on FSU believes Russia would not have won team gold in that situation.

Ultimately I think the following may be the fairest resolution for all parties: award Russia gold, USA silver, and Japan bronze. However, I would seriously consider stripping ONLY Valieva of her team gold while awarding them to her teammates. But if the entire Russian team is stripped of the team gold, I would vacate the gold medal similar to what happened to Harding at 1994 US Nationals. To me, it would be a complete joke to bump the USA up to gold, Japan to silver, and Canada to bronze given that would NOT have happened if Valieva's situation had been handled in a timely manner where Russia could have substituted another top five woman for her and easily won the gold. Of course these Olympic team medals should be awarded ASAP, hopefully at Worlds (for USA and Japan, at least). Finally, Valieva could be stripped of her 4th place Olympics finish with everyone else moving up a slot.

Net-net, no one would be entirely happy with these results and maybe that's an indication of a fair compromise. In my proposal, Valieva not only would lose her Russian title but also her European title and Olympics team gold. She would be disqualified from the women's event and all skaters who finished behind her would move up one position. However, the rest of the Russian skaters would keep their team gold medal and no Russian woman would receive Valieva's team gold medal. The USA and Japan team would receive their long-delayed silver and bronze medals ASAP, consistent with the almost certain results if Valieva had been replaced.

Then if Valieva were disqualified from O team event, shouldn’t all other women single skaters move up and Russia team receive zero points for their disqualified skater? I think that’s fair in this situation.

 

[greenapple]

All nations have to field skaters in every discipline in the Team Event, so my understanding is that if Valieva is DQ'd the team will be disqualified because it would not meet the criteria.

 

[tony]

All nations have to field skaters in every discipline in the Team Event, so my understanding is that if Valieva is DQ'd the team will be disqualified because it would not meet the criteria.

That's not correct though. The rule has always been that there needs to be an athlete qualified in three of the four disciplines and if they don't have a skater/team in the fourth event, I'm fairly certain they are still qualified. So it adds to the gray area of what would be done without Valieva.

Pertinent part of the rule:

The Additional Athletes Quota beyond the above-mentioned 5 Skaters cannot be exceeded and if not sufficient for the “incomplete Teams”, the lower ranked “incomplete Teams” according to the ranking of the Figure Skating Team qualification list, may in such case not be able to complete their Team.

So if there are, for example, three teams that qualify in the top 10 nations but all three teams don't have a pair team qualified individually to the Olympics, the maximum extra athlete criteria (at least in this past Olympics) is 5. Therefore, the lowest-ranked nation would not qualify a pair team because that would total the 5th & 6th extra athletes, but from the rules it seems in all instances of the writing that they would compete without that pair.

ETA- Germany (minus H/S in pairs) and Ukraine (minus Shmuratko) competed with skaters in three of the four disciplines in the last Olympic team event. While they were withdrawn prior to the event because of Covid, the teams still competed.

 

[coppertop1]

If Valieva gets DQ'd, Russia loses 20 pts, and drop off the podium. USA gets gold, Japan gets silver, and Canada gets bronze.

 

[tony]

If Valieva gets DQ'd, Russia loses 20 pts, and drop off the podium. USA gets gold, Japan gets silver, and Canada gets bronze.

That's if everyone else moves up and they don't just keep things as is, which has been discussed previously in this thread.

 

[On My Own]

So if there are, for example, three teams that qualify in the top 10 nations but all three teams don't have a pair team qualified individually to the Olympics, the maximum extra athlete criteria (at least in this past Olympics) is 5. Therefore, the lowest-ranked nation would not qualify a pair team because that would total the 5th & 6th extra athletes, but from the rules it seems in all instances of the writing that they would compete without that pair.

I think you mean this scenario:

Valieva being disqualified means OAR (or whatever it was called this time) would have 1 point in the women's SP, qualify to the LP based off their overall results, and then have 6 points in the women's LP.

Meaning their point total would drop by 13 to 61, and therefore they still win bronze.

 

[tony]

I think you mean this scenario:

Valieva being disqualified means OAR (or whatever it was called this time) would have 1 point in the women's SP, qualify to the LP based off their overall results, and then have 6 points in the women's LP.

Meaning their point total would drop by 13 to 61, and therefore they still win bronze.

No, that's not what I mean at all. If there's no one competing, they get 0 points- not 1. See Hase/Seegert and Shmuratko who didn't compete for their teams.

What I was stating is that the idea that a country has to field an entire set of skaters, to my knowledge, has never been the case and if they only qualify in three of the four disciplines and don't have a pair or dance team or the maximum extra athlete quota is reached, they can still compete with the missing discipline.

 

[On My Own]

No, that's not what I mean at all. If there's no one competing, they get 0 points- not 1. See Hase/Seegert and Shmuratko who didn't compete for their teams.

But then in this case, there's no doubt at all that Russia would fall off the podium. "That's if everyone else moves up and they don't just keep things as is, which has been discussed previously in this thread." What do you mean by this then? That the other teams don't all get bumped up a spot despite Russia being disqualified?

 

[tony]

But then in this case, there's no doubt at all that Russia would fall off the podium. "That's if everyone else moves up and they don't just keep things as is, which has been discussed previously in this thread." What do you mean by this then? That the other teams don't all get bumped up a spot despite Russia being disqualified?

The discussion in this thread (or maybe across various threads) has endlessly been whether Russia's Valieva result just gets crossed out and everyone else stays with their points (a la Tonya Harding's 1994 Nationals result), or everyone else does indeed move up (a la Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze's 2000 Europeans, for example).

But again, the thing that you replied to was in reference to whether Russia is disqualified as a whole because of only three of four disciplines counting, to which I provided rules that seem to state it's not a requirement.

 

[On My Own]

OK. I think the bronze scenario also needs to be considered, because that might end up happening.

 

[caseyedwards]

It’s not really a team then. Because they are all counted separately! Not together. They don’t compete together. It’s not a relay team