Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[coppertop1]

I don't know the odds but apparently at least one other person was caught so that's already higher than I would have guessed.

Athletes are going to be extra careful about anything from now on.

Of course, Russia accuses anyone who points this out of hypocrisy.

 

[Winnipeg]

Disgusted at this. How can Russia make the determination of whether Russia doped or not. Like they will be transparent, fair etc? Give me a break.


This reflects badly on Russia but on the entire world organization that supports such a review (wolf minding the hen house).

 

[coppertop1]

Cocaïne she was accidentally contaminated with, something French Anti-Doping agency took into account. Still she was suspended for 2 years while waiting for their decision, which, as a result, couldn't be shorter than a 2 years ban. It put an abrupt end to her career. She is very resilient and she has turned the page but still, she cringed when I told her about how Valieva's case finally turned. I'm actually more furious than her This Valieva stuff is such a huge pile of crap and a literally glorious and beaming feck you to the rest of the skating universe.

Canada was disqualified from the 2019 Pan American Games in Show Jumping because one of our riders unknowingly drank coca tea to combat altitude sickness. As a result, we didn't qualify a full team to Tokyo. It really does seem like everyone has to follow the rules except for Russia. And to any athlete who had to serve a suspension and take it on the chin, this must really hit a nerve.

 

[skatingguy]

Disgusted at this. How can Russia make the determination of whether Russia doped or not. Like they will be transparent, fair etc? Give me a break.


This reflects badly on Russia but on the entire world organization that supports such a review (wolf minding the hen house).

To be clear, the decision in this case was in the hands of RUSADA because the positive test happened at a domestic event. Now that RUSADA has made a decision it can be appealed at the international level to the CAS.

 

[Vagabond]

Canada was disqualified from the 2019 Pan American Games in Show Jumping because one of our riders unknowingly drank cocaine tea to combat altitude sickness. As a result, we didn't qualify a full team to Tokyo. It really does seem like everyone has to follow the rules except for Russia. And to any athlete who had to serve a suspension and take it on the chin, this must really hit a nerve.

Not quite.

Equestrian Nicole Walker loses appeal of positive drug test at Pan Am Games

Equestrian Nicole Walker was disqualified from the Pan Am Games after testing positive for a banned substance, cocaine

www.theglobeandmail.com

The rider in question drank  coca tea, which was available where she was staying in Lima, which is at sea level. Cocaine is refined from coca leaves, but unrefined coca is not cocaine.

 

[coppertop1]

Not quite.

Equestrian Nicole Walker loses appeal of positive drug test at Pan Am Games

Equestrian Nicole Walker was disqualified from the Pan Am Games after testing positive for a banned substance, cocaine

www.theglobeandmail.com

The rider in question drank  coca tea, which was available where she was staying in Lima, which is at sea level. Cocaine is refined from coca leaves, but unrefined coca is not cocaine.

Oops. My bad. Fixed it

 

[coppertop1]

I can't help but feel kinda meh about this because even if Valieva is stripped of her European title (and she should be) and disqualified from the Olympics, and Russia is stripped of their Olympic Gold Medal from the Team Event, Eteri still walks away with the European Gold and Silver and Medals, just like the Women's event in at the Olympics. It just feels empty unless they also punish Eteri.

 

[Coco]

When they changed the rules to make allowances for younger athletes with regards to doping, I always thought what they should have done is fix it so that if someone under 18 fails a drug test, their coach receives the penalty the athlete would have received if they had failed a drug test as an adult.

The under age athlete needs some kind of suspension, otherwise a perverse incentive to dope children will exist. But the adult most responsible for that athlete's performance needs to be hit with the largest sanction.

 

[Winnipeg]

To be clear, the decision in this case was in the hands of RUSADA because the positive test happened at a domestic event. Now that RUSADA has made a decision it can be appealed at the international level to the CAS.

Thanks for that! I hope this will be appealed.

 

[tony]

I don't agree with automatically always throwing the blame to the coach-- the supposed 'person most responsible for the junior athlete'. I know with Tutberidze there's going to be no arguing otherwise, but what if we have another makeup situation or something where it's not really known right away what caused a positive test? What if the parents are skating obsessed and will do anything to get their child into the top levels? What if the athlete went into the medicine cabinet and saw something on Google that they thought would help them?

The coach doesn't know everything going on in the personal life of the skater as is, and seeing how some people on this board went into an absolute tizzy once upon a time over the idea of coaches texting students (even for the most basic-- practice is 10 minutes later today, or whatever), I don't see why they should be suspended/sanctioned by default for this.

 

[Winnipeg]

I think the coaching blame is specific to this case and not an assumed blame in future or other past events.

IN all cases, I think an investigation should be done with a view to finding out the information or root cause and then to make an informed assessment and decision etc.......

 

[Trillian]

I think the coaching blame is specific to this case and not an assumed blame in future or other past events.

I agree.

IN all cases, I think an investigation should be done with a view to finding out the information or root cause and then to make an informed assessment and decision etc.......

This is the important part, particularly when it comes to any athlete who is considered a “protected person.” Part of “protecting” minors in sports should include thoroughly investigating the circumstances of any positive doping tests and determining which adults bear responsibility. If a doping agency can’t be bothered to provide a credible explanation of the circumstances and what actions are necessary to reduce the risk for other young people going forward, they’re not doing their jobs and should be treated accordingly.

There are some fans who love to remind people of Valieva’s “protected” status when it comes to arguing against punishment (or shutting down conversation entirely). It would be nice if they were as enthusiastic about actions that could be taken to actually protect her and other kids.

 

[Marco]

I don't agree but absolutely understand RUSADA's decision. Tactically, Russia knows that there is an overwhelming likelihood that there will be an appeal, almost regardless of what they decide. So why not just give Kamila a minimum penalty and let the rest take its course. I am sure deep down they have an estimate range of what the eventual penalty will be. The silver lining is at least they did not go along with the grandpa defence. If the penalty eventually changes from 1 day suspension to say 4 years and from just stripping off National title to more than that, then they will also use the little girl argument and ask Kamila to cry on public ice while skating. There really is no motivation for RUSASA to give her a fair sentence - you are calling me a villain anyways, I might as well be thick-skinned to hell and back.

Separately, as a national body, does RUSADA have the actual power to say, revoke her Euro title or revoke her points at the Olympic team event? Or is that something that only an international body like IOC or ISU can do?

 

[Coco]

I've never seen a minor test positive for PED except for former communist countries where the athlete is either on site and living in a dorm or or in an otherwise highly controlled environment. The logic in making the most responsible adult party eligible for punishment is that it will give a coach or a federation an incentive to protect a child athlete from a parent or agent or saboteur. There's nothing stopping coaches or federations from testing their own athletes to make sure they're clean.

I think I have been making this argument online since Raducan lost her gold medal in Sydney, so I'm not really motivated by Eteri emotions. It's law and economics, who is the person with the greatest ability to keep the athlete clean? That person should be given the greatest incentive.

 

[Yuri]

I am also curious as to whether RUSADA has the power to sanction Valieva for events outside of Russia. Despite their "no fault" finding, they did strip her of her gold medal for the 2022 Russian national championships and that's a big deal. The only time I remember a national skating title being stripped in the USA is 1994 when the USFSA vacated Tonya Harding's gold medal even though there was no evidence that she knew about the planned attack on Kerrigan in advance. So perhaps it's up to the ISU to punish Valieva for the European Championships (where she tested negative) and the Olympics (again, negative).

I simply don't know what's the fairest actions regarding the team medals at the Olympics. In my former regulatory life, sometimes we needed to try to place all parties so they would be similarly situated to where they would have been in when fixing a prior regulatory failure. To me, if RUSADA had acted timely on the test at Russian Nationals then Valieva likely would not have appeared at the Olympics (and possibly not at Europeans) in the first place. In that situation, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva likely would have been selected to skate at both events--so she's the first injured party (like Michelle Kwan missing the 1994 Olympics due to the Harding situation not being concluded until afterwards). For the team event, Russia would likely have had Shcherbakova and/or Trusova skate instead of Valieva. Given the dominance of Russian women, I don't think anyone on FSU believes Russia would not have won team gold in that situation.

Ultimately I think the following may be the fairest resolution for all parties: award Russia gold, USA silver, and Japan bronze. However, I would seriously consider stripping ONLY Valieva of her team gold while awarding them to her teammates. But if the entire Russian team is stripped of the team gold, I would vacate the gold medal similar to what happened to Harding at 1994 US Nationals. To me, it would be a complete joke to bump the USA up to gold, Japan to silver, and Canada to bronze given that would NOT have happened if Valieva's situation had been handled in a timely manner where Russia could have substituted another top five woman for her and easily won the gold. Of course these Olympic team medals should be awarded ASAP, hopefully at Worlds (for USA and Japan, at least). Finally, Valieva could be stripped of her 4th place Olympics finish with everyone else moving up a slot.

Net-net, no one would be entirely happy with these results and maybe that's an indication of a fair compromise. In my proposal, Valieva not only would lose her Russian title but also her European title and Olympics team gold. She would be disqualified from the women's event and all skaters who finished behind her would move up one position. However, the rest of the Russian skaters would keep their team gold medal and no Russian woman would receive Valieva's team gold medal. The USA and Japan team would receive their long-delayed silver and bronze medals ASAP, consistent with the almost certain results if Valieva had been replaced.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

However, I would seriously consider stripping ONLY Valieva of her team gold while awarding them to her teammates. But if the entire Russian team is stripped of the team gold, I would vacate the gold medal similar to what happened to Harding at 1994 US Nationals. To me, it would be a complete joke to bump the USA up to gold, Japan to silver, and Canada to bronze given that would NOT have happened if Valieva's situation had been handled in a timely manner where Russia could have substituted another top five woman for her and easily won the gold.

No, it's a competition, not a simulation. Medals must be awarded based on what did happen, not what could/should/would have happened. If a member of a team is disqualified, her score is dropped and the standings recalculated. It doesn't matter how well someone else might have skated in her place, because they didn't skate. It's not a joke to award the win to the team who got the highest score on the day, no matter how bizarre the circumstances.

 

[coppertop1]

No, it's a competition, not a simulation. Medals must be awarded based on what did happen, not what could/should/would have happened. If a member of a team is disqualified, her score is dropped and the standings recalculated. It doesn't matter how well someone else might have skated in her place, because they didn't skate. It's not a joke to award the win to the team who got the highest score on the day, no matter how bizarre the circumstances.

And in any team sport, if one person in the team breaks a rule, the entire team is disqualified. That's why it's a team. Plus,. Russia had no business sending Kamil to Europeans or the Olympics, knowing she wasn't clean.

 

[On My Own]

I think the 1994 Nationals comparison is fair in this case. I'd accept it if it happens.

 

[greenapple]

Of course these Olympic team medals should be awarded ASAP, hopefully at Worlds (for USA and Japan, at least).

The IOC is not going to award medals to anyone at Worlds or any other ISU competition, and it would never hold a ceremony for just two teams.

 

[On My Own]

I think people need to give up on the idea of the US bagging gold and Canada bronze at this point.

1. We don't know why RUSADA's director general said she hasn't seen the full decision. On paper it might sound good, but it might just be to provide the decision credibility. As in, "we checked the entire thing again, and it's all good", or "we appealed it, and went through the entire process again, but we can't do anything about it". Buying time. Or they may cancel Valieva's gold at Europeans to make a WADA appeal to CAS more likely to fail.
2. If people looked at the Wikipedia article to Sun Yang I'd linked earlier, it mentions that the CAS panel had been criticized for its political biases. If the CAS panel against Valieva is fully "Western", then at this point it is very likely that the panel -whoever it comprises- has made at least some "politically biased" comments against Russia due to the ongoing war. This can be easily turned against the CAS ruling in case it is not in Valieva's favour. Of course, if the CAS panel has east bloc members, the WADA will end up losing the appeal - and it is doubtful the case will be taken seriously afterwards even if they appeal against political biases. I do think the Wednesday video has partly done damage to the gravity of the case. And I do think RUSADA bought time keeping all this in mind.

Best outcome is Russia having no team medals and the US and Japan finally getting theirs. Worst is the outcome remaining as is, but at least I'll still be praying that there's no Russia or OAR or "Asian Russia" (?) at Milan.

 

[MacMadame]

I do think the Wednesday video has partly done damage to the gravity of the case.

No one at WADA, IOC, ISU, CAS, and whatever other initials are involved cares what Valieva skated for her exhibition program at some domestic comp.

 

[Marco]

I think people need to give up on the idea of the US bagging gold and Canada bronze at this point.

I think it is a tad fair to disqualify the entire ROC team results because the 4 separate disciplines competed separately. Where only one member was deemed not eligible, it should suffice to disregard her own contribution - like Team ROC had no ladies competitor there. With that, I think regardless of the below I believe US and Japan will move up one spot in the Olympic team event.

And whether Canada gets bronze depends on whether the decision / remedy is to treat it like Kamila competed at Euros and Olympics BUT her results do not count; or that she never competed (like she never should have if the event had unfolded sooner).

If it is the former, then ROC loses 20 points in the Olympic team event but still hangs on to bronze over Canada by 1 point. No one in the team ladies event move up and no one gets additoinal points. She obviously loses credit as a team member there and loses her result of 1st at Euros and 4th at the Olympics individual event. Anna does not become European Champion of 2022 and Loena does not become the bronze medalist (i.e. no one moves up). Same for Olympics ladies event - no one below 4th moves up a spot. Not that it matters anymore - but she should lose her WS points or SBs from those events.

If it is the latter however, then ROC still loses 20 points in the Olympic team event, but with every other lady skater bumped up a place and get 1 additional point for each segment, Canada snatches 3rd by 1 point and ROC goes down to 4th. She still loses credit as a team member there and loses her result at Euros and Olympics individual event. Anna becomes European Champion 2022 and Leona gets a bronze medal there. At the Olympics ladies event, everyone below 4th moves up a spot. Everyone who got to move up a spot at Euros and Olympics get the extra WS points that they are entitled with the new placement.

Tonya / Michelle incident in 1994 was treated like the former situation yes, but a more direct comparison may be B&S being stripped off their 2000 European title after her positive test and everyone's placements went up [i.e. like the latter situation], with the title going to P&T instead of being vacated.

Just my take.

 

[Karen-W]

Tonya / Michelle incident in 1994 was treated like the former situation yes, but a more direct comparison may be B&S being stripped off their 2000 European title after her positive test and everyone's placements went up [i.e. like the latter situation], with the title going to P&T instead of being vacated.

The Tonya 1994 Nationals situation has ZERO bearing on what happens with the 2022 Euros and Olympics results for a couple of reasons:

1) it was not a WADA offense but instead a criminal offense - and it only involved US Nationals. The legal fight over Harding being allowed to compete at the Olympics played out within the US judicial system and did not involve CAS.

2) Harding's Olympics result was never disqualified - https://olympics.com/en/olympic-games/lillehammer-1994/results/figure-skating/individual-women

You cannot compare that situation with what potentially could happen with the Valieva situation, but I would say that your supposition that we are looking at something more along the lines of the 2000 Euros pairs situation with Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze being disqualified and stripped of their title while the rest of the competitors were moved up one spot in the overall results.

My belief has always been that if CAS rules in favor of WADA and a lengthy ban is imposed then we will see an outcome like this:

If it is the latter however, then ROC still loses 20 points in the Olympic team event, but with every other lady skater bumped up a place and get 1 additional point for each segment, Canada snatches 3rd by 1 point and ROC goes down to 4th. She still loses credit as a team member there and loses her result at Euros and Olympics individual event. Anna becomes European Champion 2022 and Leona gets a bronze medal there. At the Olympics ladies event, everyone below 4th moves up a spot. Everyone who got to move up a spot at Euros and Olympics get the extra WS points that they are entitled with the new placement.

Other countries which were unable to field a competitor in specific disciplines (Ukraine - Shmuratko, Germany - Hase/Seegert) not only got zero points in the SP but every other country got the points for wherever they placed and no country received the 10th place point (1) available. I don't see how the ISU/IOC can wiggle out of not bumping each of the other countries points up to the next place value given how they treated the Men's & Pairs disciplines for the same exact Team Event.

For all of these events, there is prize money on the line and funding for some skaters depends on their placement at events like Euros and the Olympics, so, yes, her results will be disqualified and everyone who finished behind her will move up a spot.

 

[On My Own]

I wouldn't be so sure that the viral video and things like time won't affect the decision. Maybe it won't affect WADA's vision in the case, but there's been a lot that's happened in the last year and there are others involved in the case. Russia might come back to the world stage soon, and Valieva has shown she can draw eyes with her skating in that Wednesday video - the "key market" aspect of Russia can indeed influence the decision being made, even if it should.

 

[Karen-W]

I wouldn't be so sure that the viral video and things like time won't affect the decision. Maybe it won't affect WADA's vision in the case, but there's been a lot that's happened in the last year and there are others involved in the case. Russia might come back to the world stage soon, and Valieva has shown she can draw eyes with her skating in that Wednesday video - the "key market" aspect of Russia can indeed influence the decision being made, even if it should.

It absolutely is not going to impact anything that WADA or CAS does. I seriously doubt those folks pay any attention to viral videos anywhere.

 

[Rukia]

It absolutely is not going to impact anything that WADA or CAS does. I seriously doubt those folks pay any attention to viral videos anywhere.

RUSADA will bring it as evidence in the case, then play it and say, "We rest our case."

Follow me for more A+ legal strategies.

 

[coppertop1]

Now Russia is trying to deflect by bringing up Jessica Calalang . Deflection and projection is all they have

 

[On My Own]

The point isn't "look at how amazing this viral video is", rather that these things can have a soft influence over people. CAS panels to my knowledge don't necessarily have legal training. The athletes instead are entitled to legal teams. It's very strange but this is what it is.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Russia had no business sending Kamil to Europeans or the Olympics, knowing she wasn't clean.

How did they know she wasn't clean when her test results came through during the Olympics, after the lab took its time because the samples weren't marked urgent?

 

[Karen-W]

The point isn't "look at how amazing this viral video is", rather that these things can have a soft influence over people. CAS panels to my knowledge don't necessarily have legal training. The athletes instead are entitled to legal teams. It's very strange but this is what it is.

Pretty sure that the CAS panel members are all lawyers or judges. I mean, CAS is merely an acronym for "Court of Arbitration for Sport."

Of course the athletes are entitled to legal representation. Just like anyone accused of a crime is entitled to a public defender if they can't afford a lawyer/legal team themselves. And the entity bringing the appeal before CAS will also have its own legal team.