How will the new sequence rules affect planned jump content?

[Deleted member 221]

Treatment of jump sequences is one of the biggest changes out of the ISU Congress.

Recap:

• The so-called sequence penalty (80% factoring of jumps in a sequence) is gone: jumps receive 100% of their base value
• Sequences can have three jumps (v. two)
• Sequences must have an axel as the second and/or third jump (allowing for possibilities like 3T+2A+2T)

I anticipate this will have major impact on planned program content, and we'll be seeing many (even most) skaters include sequences with axels. Ilia Malinin has already said he'll include 4T+3A.

My predictions (feel free to add):

• Almost every skater will choose to include an axel sequence, given that it's a high-points way to get in combinations/sequences without repeating jumps;
• Women who struggle with triple-triples (e.g., Mariah Bell if she continues) or with underrotation may choose to do two axel sequences, repeating both lutz and flip; [ETA: I was wrong and missed another rule change that limits to jump sequences to one]
• Euler combinations will be out of fashion: axel sequences offer better, higher-points ways to get three-jump combinations or sequences without repeating jumps;
• 2A+3T will be a much less popular combination; 3T+2A will get the same points at lower risk of underrotation;
• True three-jump combinations will make a comeback, and we'll start to see hybrid combination/sequences -- e.g., 3T+2A+2T, 3S+3T+2A;
• Axel sequnces will be a favorite for the second half bonus

Other thoughts / predictions? (Or disagreements with above?)

 

[allezfred]

Women who struggle with triple-triples (e.g., Mariah Bell if she continues) or with underrotation may choose to do two axel sequences, repeating both lutz and flip;

Skaters will only be allowed do one jump sequence in the free.

 

[On My Own]

2A+3T will be a much less popular combination; 3T+2A will get the same points at lower risk of underrotation;

The skaters will do whichever nets them higher GOE. There's no guarantee that they will pick 3T+2A, unless they really do risk UR calls on them. 2A+3T generally looks much better, tending to show more pleasing rhythm.

I'm looking forward to a hybrid three jump combination. But in general, I hope most just knock out the sequence as a two-jump combo, and leave me with my +2T+2Lo, or +3T+2Lo 3-jump combinations. I think doing the axel in sequence leaves them open to a solo salchow jump, and therefore they can go back to a +toe+loop, for more BV too boot? Need to confirm it.

A good visual reboot for the jumping elements, anyway.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Skaters will only be allowed do one jump sequence in the free.

What's your source on this? I can't find it in the rules, but I may have missed it. I see limitation to one three-jump combo or sequence, but nothing that says only one sequence.

One more I thought of:
Pairs without two triple jumps will be helped by ability to do 2A+2A.... but other teams may be able to build up big leads with sequences like 3T+2A+2A plus solo 3S.

 

[On My Own]

Did they publish the technical panel handbook yet? It is true that for the 2021-22 season, the language for singles skating was

(free skating) There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Free
Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps, the other two
up to two (2) jumps.​

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file (page 19)

For Pairs, the language is

All jumps executed with more than 2 revolutions (double Axel and all triple and quadruple
jumps) must be of different nature (different name), however the jump combination or
sequence can include two same such jumps.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...0-tp-handbook-pair-skating-2020-21-final/file (page 15)

Similar language in the agenda, along with the change to include three jumps as a valid sequence.

https://isu.org/docman-documents-li...munications/28303-isu-communication-2472/file (page 92)

ETA: lol, no sorry, totally misread it, knew I'd seen @allezfred's statement somewhere.

Here @Louis

Jump Combinations and Jump Sequences
A jump combination and a jump sequence may consist of the same or another single, double, triple or
quadruple jump. There may be up to three jump combinations or two jump combination and one jump
sequence in the Free Program. One jump combination or one jump sequence may consist of up to three jumps,
the other two up to two jumps each.
Reason: Consistency with the previous proposal.

I'd read the original, which is picked up from the 2021-22 Handbook. Right below it is this amendment. (again, page 92)

 

[On My Own]

Actually, seems like (for men) Hanyu already maximized the BV for a 5 quad program?

4Lo
4Lz
4S
3Lz
4T+1Eu+3F
4T+3T
3A+3A

Honestly, if this is what we'll get, I'll be disappointed, I was hoping for visually different, more appealing combos, not the ugly euler ones. The one change, from what I can see, is the 4T+3T to a 4T+3Lo (someone like Hanyu can swap the 4T+3Lo/3A+3A out for 4T+3A/3A+3Lo, both of which he's done in practice or in competition).

Ignoring the Russians and taking Rika Kihira as the example of a quad-attempting woman, I think her max layout would be

3A
3A+3T
4S
3Lz
3Lz+2A+2A
3F+3Lo
3S

Unless I am messing up. So at least no ugly euler combos here.

 

[barbk]

So damn glad to see the likely reduction in ugly eyler combos.
It would be nice if there was a bonus for including a triple of every type (or, I guess -- at least for a bit -- a triple of every type except the axel for women.)

 

[screech]

So damn glad to see the likely reduction in ugly eyler combos.
It would be nice if there was a bonus for including a triple of every type (or, I guess -- at least for a bit -- a triple of every type except the axel for women.)

A quad (mainly for men) or triple. I have always thought there should be a bonus for showing versatility in jumps. Most skaters do have a preference between edge or toe jumps, but a well-rounded skater should be able to do them all.

 

[overedge]

A quad (mainly for men) or triple. I have always thought there should be a bonus for showing versatility in jumps. Most skaters do have a preference between edge or toe jumps, but a well-rounded skater should be able to do them all.

Not necessarily. Some skaters just aren't built physically to do one kind of jumps well or consistently. If they aren't able to do both edge and toe jumps well, it doesn't mean they're not a well-rounded skater or that it's for lack of trying.

 

[Deleted member 221]

So damn glad to see the likely reduction in ugly eyler combos.
It would be nice if there was a bonus for including a triple of every type (or, I guess -- at least for a bit -- a triple of every type except the axel for women.)

The rule limiting repeating the double axel more than twice helped with this. The Yuna Kims of the world could no longer double axel their way to gold. (People often miss this in the Sotnikova v. Kim discussions. The rule change forced Kim to substitute a very difficult 2A+3T in the bonus period, with an intermediate lady 3S+2T.) After this rule change, there's pretty much no way to include two difficult jump combinations anymore without doing one of each triple below axel.

The new sequence rule will also help, by allowing the required axel now able to be part of a sequence with no loss in value. Someone like Loena Hendrickx, with no triple loop, will be at a comparatively greater disadvantage next season v. this season.

 

[Coco]

I seem to recall that back in 2005-2006, 2a-2a sequences were not allowed. I wonder if they will still be prohibited?

If someone was attempting triple-triples, but left the 3 jump combo/sequence for their 3rd combo jumping pass "just in case" they needed to do 3t-2a2something, I wonder if they could to 2a-2a2loop or toe as their 3 jump combo.

 

[Maximillian]

Not necessarily. Some skaters just aren't built physically to do one kind of jumps well or consistently. If they aren't able to do both edge and toe jumps well, it doesn't mean they're not a well-rounded skater or that it's for lack of trying.

Could you explain this, please?

 

[overedge]

Could you explain this, please?

Some skaters' body proportions and/or hip flexibility make it easier for them to do edge jumps rather than toe jumps, or vice versa. They may be able to do both kinds well (well enough to pass tests, anyway) but they may be better at whichever kind they feel more comfortable doing. Favouring one over the other doesn't mean that they're not good skaters or that they're not well-trained. It's just the way that their bodies are built.

 

[VGThuy]

How many steps are allowed in a sequence?

 

[Lilia A]

How many steps are allowed in a sequence?

None. You step right into the Axel after you land the previous jump.

 

[VGThuy]

So the sequence terminology has now changed to just make it mean jumping passes with multiple jumps (2-3) where axels are the second and/or third jump?

ETA:

Seems to have been this way for a while:

Rule 610
Jump Sequences
A jump sequence consists of 2 (two) jumps of any number of revolutions, beginning with any listed jump, immediately followed by an Axel type jump with a direct step from the landing curve of the first jump to the take-off curve of the Axel jump.

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/rules-regulations/isu-congresses/17400-isu-communication-2176/file

Now I see why sequences and combos are equal in value now.

 

[On My Own]

I seem to recall that back in 2005-2006, 2a-2a sequences were not allowed. I wonder if they will still be prohibited?

Tuktamysheva attempted 2A+2A sequences during the 2014-18 quad, and as a junior. https://skatingscores.com/rus/women/elizaveta_tuktamysheva/

Seems to have been this way for a while:

No, this definition is from 2018-22 quad, which specifically allows only axels as (the latter) part of sequences.

Also, the three jump sequences is new this quad.

ETA: A quick search tells me that it was the 2010-11 season that finally allowed the eulers/half-loops as listed jumps in a two- or three- jump combo, making the +1Lo+Flip/Salchows count as full base value combos. Joannie Rochette's 3T+3S were indeed counted as sequences before this season. https://skatingscores.com/can/women/joannie_rochette/

Now I see why sequences and combos are equal in value now.

Well they did still make a mistake with it. 3T+2A isn't as hard as a 2A+3T. Same for 4T+3A vs 3A+4T. Or 3Lo+3A vs 3A+3Lo. This particular discrepancy could have been easily fixed with an additional sentence or two (for example by having a 1.1 multiplier for the latter case in each pair), but oh well.

 

[slicekw]

Some skaters' body proportions and/or hip flexibility make it easier for them to do edge jumps rather than toe jumps, or vice versa. They may be able to do both kinds well (well enough to pass tests, anyway) but they may be better at whichever kind they feel more comfortable doing. Favouring one over the other doesn't mean that they're not good skaters or that they're not well-trained. It's just the way that their bodies are built.

I agree with your definition of well-trained. We can't help how our bodies are built to move. But I've always thought that a skater that could get +GOE on every jump should get a bonus. It takes work to do all of them well and speaks to well-rounded training.

Also including moves like Charlotte, Ina Bauer, falling leaf, hydroblade, and a clean, simple layback that would make Uncle Dick swoon (this is not a definitive list!) should be required and counted and scored on their own merits, not as a sequence. These moves are part of the history of the sport and require work to learn and do well. They should be rewarded as such and not glossed over in a "sequence" or as the in-betweens that might (might!) enhance an artistic score.

Both "artistic gymnastics" floor and figure skating have gone more the way of jumping passes and less on the artistic. I wouldn't mind incorporating some basic "artistic" (yet athletic) moves as a goal and not something to be rushed through on the way to the jumps.

 

[screech]

Not necessarily. Some skaters just aren't built physically to do one kind of jumps well or consistently. If they aren't able to do both edge and toe jumps well, it doesn't mean they're not a well-rounded skater or that it's for lack of trying.

But also, some skaters aren't built physically to be able to do a well-arched layback, a Beillman, a fully split spiral, etc, however laybacks and spirals were requirements in ladies figure skating for years, irregardless of the skater's physicality.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

But also, some skaters aren't built physically to be able to do a well-arched layback, a Beillman, a fully split spiral, etc, however laybacks and spirals were requirements in ladies figure skating for years, irregardless of the skater's physicality.

And I'm mighty glad that we no longer require laybacks and spirals for the women when they were not required for the men.

 

[gkelly]

The choreo sequence is supposed to be a way to require/reward "artistic" moves in the senior freeskate.

However, as instituted, it doesn't specifically reward difficulty of the nonlisted moves, and even the rewards for quality and artistry are low relative to the difference between an excellent vs. a just-adequate sequence.

One way to reward difficulty while not forcing everyone to do the same few spirals regardless of body type/personal strengths would be:

*Replace the unleveled choreo sequence with a leveled sequence that includes many many different kinds of moves and features to earn up to level 4
and/or
*Introduce a few different kinds of leveled sequences each with multiple features to earn levels

I'm sure that approach would make a lot more work for the technical panels, which is probably why it hasn't been pursued.

 

[VGThuy]

Well they did still make a mistake with it. 3T+2A isn't as hard as a 2A+3T. Same for 4T+3A vs 3A+4T. Or 3Lo+3A vs 3A+3Lo. This particular discrepancy could have been easily fixed with an additional sentence or two (for example by having a 1.1 multiplier for the latter case in each pair), but oh well.

Well, I gave up on that a long time ago when the COP was first implemented. It seems the judges have as well since Katarina Witt's triple toe/double loop was seen as being equal to Debi Thomas' double loop/triple toe.

 

[Maximillian]

I've always felt that a combination should have a bonus, rather than just being the sum of the two (or three) jumps (plus GOE), as doing a 3t in combination is more difficult than doing one in isolation. I realize that this is, in a sense, addressed by the limiting of jumping passed in a program, still, it seems to me that jumps done in combination are intrinsically more difficult than as solo elements. Of course, I don't follow rule changes all that closely and this might have been addressed...

 

[VGThuy]

I've always felt that a combination should have a bonus, rather than just being the sum of the two (or three) jumps (plus GOE), as doing a 3t in combination is more difficult than doing one in isolation. I realize that this is, in a sense, addressed by the limiting of jumping passed in a program, still, it seems to me that jumps done in combination are intrinsically more difficult than as solo elements. Of course, I don't follow rule changes all that closely and this might have been addressed...

I agree. Sequences I can just being the sum value of the jumps but with combos, I always thought should get some sort of multiplier based on the difficulty of the second jump or second and third jump. True combos can only end in toe loops and loops anyway, so it won’t affect too much but will give more credit to combos like a double/triples over triple/doubles depending on whether it’s like a 2toe/3toe vs. 3toe/2toe but also a 3Lutz/2toe would still be higher based on the value of the Lutz itself.

 

[gkelly]

True combos can only end in toe loops and loops anyway, so it won’t affect too much but will give more credit to combos like a double/triples over triple/doubles depending on whether it’s like a 2toe/3toe vs. 3toe/2toe but also a 3Lutz/2toe would still be higher based on the value of the Lutz itself.

If there were a multiplier to the value of the second jump in a combo, then combos like one-foot axel+triple salchow or one foot double salchow+triple sal would be more valuable than 3S+2T or even 3S+2Lo, so maybe we would start seeing combos like that.

At the top skill level, there would also be more incentive for something like 3T+4T.

And lots of 2T+3T (which does currently get a bonus at novice(?) level in the US).

 

[overedge]

But also, some skaters aren't built physically to be able to do a well-arched layback, a Beillman, a fully split spiral, etc, however laybacks and spirals were requirements in ladies figure skating for years, irregardless of the skater's physicality.

Exactly, and that's why we shouldn't say that skaters aren't well-rounded if they can't do them.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Well, I gave up on that a long time ago when the COP was first implemented. It seems the judges have as well since Katarina Witt's triple toe/double loop was seen as being equal to Debi Thomas' double loop/triple toe.

I do feel like loops on the end of combinations are exceptionally tricky and prone to error. If each combination had a unique base value based on difficulty, I would give 2Lo+3T a higher base value than 3T+2Lo, but only slightly.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I agree. Sequences I can just being the sum value of the jumps but with combos, I always thought should get some sort of multiplier based on the difficulty of the second jump or second and third jump.

I suppose it would make things too complicated but I've always wished that there were specific (higher) point values assigned to particularly difficult and rare combos. So for instance, a 3A-3Loop would be worth a fair bit more than just the sum of the individual jumps.

 

[VGThuy]

If there were a multiplier to the value of the second jump in a combo, then combos like one-foot axel+triple salchow or one foot double salchow+triple sal would be more valuable than 3S+2T or even 3S+2Lo, so maybe we would start seeing combos like that.

At the top skill level, there would also be more incentive for something like 3T+4T.

And lots of 2T+3T (which does currently get a bonus at novice(?) level in the US).

That would be interesting. I wonder if there would be a need to change the values of jumps with this in consideration. I was playing around with multiplying the second jump by 1.3 and then 1.5 and noticed some interesting discrepancies...See the chart below. Maybe the first jump should get a multiplier by 1.1 or something either with a 1.3 or 1.5 multiplier for the second jump. Or maybe multipliers will only apply to doubles or more. I have no idea what the best model would be, honestly.

Here's a quick (unproofread) chart I made with the second jump on combos being multiplied by 1.3 and then 1.5. I haven't even thought about combining that with a third jump multiplier with a 3 jump combo...but this already gives skaters a lot of cool choices to choose from:

Multiplier of 1.3
2T= 1.69
2L = 2.21
3T = 5.46
3S = 5.59
3L = 6.37
3F = 6.89

3Toe + 2Toe = 5.89
3Sal + 2Toe = 5.99
3Toe + 2Loop = 6.41
3Sal + 2Loop = 6.51
1A + 3Sal = 6.69
2Toe/Sal + 3Toe = 6.76
3Flip + 2Toe = 6.99
3Loop + 2Loop = 7.11
2Loop + 3Toe = 7.16
2Flip + 3Toe = 7.26
3Flip + 2Loop = 7.51
2Lutz + 3Toe = 7.56
3Lutz + 2Toe = 7.59
2Toe/Sal + 3Loop = 7.67
1A + 3Flip = 7.99
2Loop + 3Loop = 8.07
2Flip + 3Loop = 8.17
3Lutz + 2Loop 8.11
2Lutz + 3Loop = 8.47
2A + 3Toe = 8.76
3Toe + 3Toe = 9.66
2A + 3Loop = 9.67
3A + 2T = 9.69
3Sal + 3Toe = 9.76
3A + 2L = 10.21
3Loop + 3Toe = 10.36
3Toe + 3Loop = 10.57
3Sal + 3Loop = 10.67
3Flip + 3Toe = 10.76
3Loop + 3Loop = 11.27
3Lutz + 3Toe = 11.36
3Flip + 3Loop = 11.67
3Lutz + 3Loop = 12.27
3A + 3Toe = 13.46
3A + 3Loop = 14.37

---

Multiplier of 1.5
2Toe = 1.95
2Sal = 6.45
2Loop = 2.55
3Toe = 6.30
3Loop = 7.35
3Flip = 7.95

3Toe + 2Toe = 6.15
3Sal + 2Toe = 6.25
3Toe + 2Loop = 6.75
3Sal + 2Loop = 6.85
3Flip + 2Toe = 7.25
3Loop + 2Loop = 7.45
1A + 3Sal = 7.55
2Toe/Sal + 3Toe = 7.60
3Flip + 2Loop = 7.85
3Lutz + 2Toe = 7.85
2Loop + 3Toe = 8.00
2Flip + 3Toe = 8.10
2Lutz + 3Toe = 8.40
3Lutz + 2Loop 8.45
2Toe/Sal + 3Loop = 8.65
1A + 3Flip = 9.05
2Loop + 3Loop = 9.05
2Flip + 3Loop = 9.15
2Lutz + 3Loop = 9.45
2A + 3Toe = 9.60
3A + 2T = 9.95
3Toe + 3Toe = 10.50
3A + 2L = 10.55
3Sal + 3Toe = 10.60
2A + 3Loop = 10.65
3Loop + 3Toe = 11.20
3Toe + 3Loop = 11.55
3Flip + 3Toe = 11.60
3Sal + 3Loop = 11.65
3Lutz + 3Toe = 12.20
3Loop + 3Loop = 12.25
3Flip + 3Loop = 12.65
3Lutz + 3Loop = 13.25
3A + 3Toe = 14.30
3A + 3Loop = 15.35

---

As you can see, I only did doubles and triples with a one-foot axel to Sal/Flip. Sorry if some of my math is off. I didn't proofread that, but it's interesting to see how things may change by using multipliers for the second jump. Maybe I'll experiment with multiplying the first jump too.

 

[On My Own]

If there were a multiplier to the value of the second jump in a combo, then combos like one-foot axel+triple salchow or one foot double salchow+triple sal would be more valuable than 3S+2T or even 3S+2Lo, so maybe we would start seeing combos like that.

Aren't one-foot jumps considered the same as the regular equivalents? I wish they weren't, they should be considered harder... Dimitriev's 3Lz+3F getting no bonus at all for doing a one-foot 3Lz was ridiculous. I wish they'd rework the BV system for jumps. It would need some work, but it actually doesn't need to be multipliers, they can determine a table of values for what a +3Lutz that is second in the combo gets, and further what it'll get when it's third in the combo. Shouldn't be a big problem.

Effectively we'd need:
3Lz
One foot 3Lz
3Lz second jump
3Lz third jump
< (this is a multiplier to be applied on all other values)
<< (2Lz BV or one foot 2Lz BV)
e (this is a multiplier to be applied on all other values)

For all jumps. This would eliminate any unintentional effects a multiplier for combos might cause. But on the other hand, I'd hate to see +3F or +3S done in +Eu combos to get "third jump" bonuses because of this, although this needs to be taken care of in the case of multipliers as well. So for me, I'd make +Eu combos simple two-jump combos.

@VGThuy If we're talking about multipliers, IMO, we cannot give the same bonus to doubles and triples, and we also need to see what the preceding jump is. So 1.1 for +double and 1.3 for +triple, and then no bonus for double as the preceding jump, but 1.1 for a triple as the preceding jump is closer to what I'd pick. Even then, I'd probably bump up the bonus for +loops, +flips, and +lutzes a bit more compared to +toe and +salchows.