ISU Transgender Policy

[Deleted member 221]

We must be trans inclusive, but I do think it's fair to discuss how we best achieve inclusion.

The division between men and women's divisions is based on sex, not gender. The division exists because one sex (men) has an inherent physical advantage over the other, especially post-puberty.

The Lia Thomas situation is complicated. She went through male puberty. She has male body parts. She competed on the men's team, even while her gender identity was a woman. Would it not be an equally fair solution to change the names of the categories to be more inclusive? Instead of men's and women's events, something like Group 1 and Group 2, assigned by biology but open to all gender and identity expressions?

I agree it's not fair to ask her to compete in a men's event, but I think it's also not fair to ask women to compete against someone who does not have female body parts.

 

[Trillian]

Would it not be an equally fair solution to change the names of the categories to be more inclusive? Instead of men's and women's events, something like Group 1 and Group 2, assigned by biology but open to all gender and identity expressions?

Where are you proposing that intersex people compete in this scenario? What kind of testing should we impose when someone sees a woman who doesn’t look sufficiently “feminine” by their standards and starts complaining that she’s not a “real” woman? These are exactly the kinds of questions that come up when people want to define women’s sports by “biology,” so I don’t think they’ll go away if we start calling the categories something else.

 

[skatingguy]

Who knew JK Rowling posts on FSU?

We get only the best trolls.

 

[once_upon]

Aw, the old trans women who have not undergone surgical reconstruction will rape cis women, pops up. I did wonder when that would rear it's ugly face.

Yet no mention of the rape of trans women who have yet to undergo reconstructive surgery by cis men when forced to use male locker rooms

 

[aka_gerbil]

Aw, the old trans women who have not undergone surgical reconstruction will rape cis women, pops up. I did wonder when that would rear it's ugly face.

Yet no mention of the rape of trans women who have yet to undergo reconstructive surgery by cis men when forced to use male locker rooms

I think she actually meant a scenario in which a cis woman was previously raped by a cis man but is then on a team with a trans woman who has not yet had surgery—being in a change room where everyone is changing in front of everyone else and seeing a body with a penis might be traumatic to the previously raped cis woman. She didn’t say that the trans woman was a rapist: she said seeing a body with a penis might be triggering to someone who has been previously raped by someone else (person C, not on the team).

I think most women are very well aware a plastic sign on a public bathroom or locker room isn’t going to stop any male who wants to rape from doing it.

 

[once_upon]

I was referring more to forcing a trans woman into a cis men's locker room because they have a penis. I am aware of more rapes by cis men on a trans woman in my local community than the other way. One young trans woman was raped by an entire male football team "because if 'it' really wanted to be trans, then 'it' should enjoy penises". She spent weeks in the hospital and her anal anatomy will never heal. (She has been cared for by friends of mine for years.)

Other similar cases, not as severe raping, are known to medical community that I used to work at.

 

[Pink Cats]

Aw, the old trans women who have not undergone surgical reconstruction will rape cis women, pops up. I did wonder when that would rear it's ugly face.

Yet no mention of the rape of trans women who have yet to undergo reconstructive surgery by cis men when forced to use male locker rooms

As a CIS woman I don't have a problem with Trans Women who have undergone surgical reconstruction using the women's changing room however I am very uncomfortable with the idea of Trans Women who have not undergone surgical reconstruction using women's changing room. Basically how am I to tell if the person with the male tackle is a Trans Women and not a CIS man? Some kind of accommodation has to be made to that address the needs of both CIS & Trans Women.

 

[once_upon]

Exactly how often do you think a trans woman who has not undergone reconstruction surgery would be alone with a cis woman in a locker room?

Are there credible reports of a person claiming to be trans female but cis male to gain access to bathroom/locker rooms to harm cis women?

This is as weird as saying every gay or lesbian gets all kinds if excited by taking showers with their sports teammates.

 

[MacMadame]

We get only the best trolls.

Meh, I've seen better.

I think most women are very well aware a plastic sign on a public bathroom or locker room isn’t going to stop any male who wants to rape from doing it.

You'd think that. But as soon as we start discussing trans women, this gets brought up as if it's a big problem that women are subjected to and fear.

There are places and times where men and women share locker rooms/restrooms. Like in synchro. Locker rooms are assigned to teams and some teams are co-ed.

Not to mention... it has absolutely nothing to do with the original discussion so throwing it in now is just a big red herring.


Lia Thomas is following the rules of her sport. If people think those rules aren't fair, they need to take it up with the swimming feds and come up with better rules.

I had seen no research that would say that the advantages of going through puberty as a male would cause someone to perform dramatically better than every female in every single sport. The advantages I've seen in research turn out in real-world scenarios to be slight or nonexistent most of the time. And very sports-specific.

Maybe in swimming, the differences are dramatic so maybe swimming needs stricter rules. And, what do you know, US swimming has changed the rules just last month:

USA Swimming unveils new rules for transgender athletes

New policy could affect Lia Thomas, who transitioned and moved from men’s to women’s team at University of Pennsylvania.

www.aljazeera.com

Btw, this article says that Lia's team supports her so I think that at least some of them do and the ones that don't are in a minority.

 

[Pink Cats]

Exactly how often do you think a trans woman who has not undergone reconstruction surgery would be alone with a cis woman in a locker room?

Are there credible reports of a person claiming to be trans female but cis male to gain access to bathroom/locker rooms to harm cis women?

This is as weird as saying every gay or lesbian gets all kinds if excited by taking showers with their sports teammates.

Every 68 seconds another American is sexually assaulted, https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, the vast majority of those American's are CIS Women. Unless you can tell us a way that a trans woman who has not undergone reconstruction surgery can be told apart from a CIS Man then you don't have a point. Because if a person with a penis is walking though a public changing room my reaction is not going to be to welcome the Tran women but to call the management. What you have done is indicate that you don't believe that CIS Women have any rights when it comes to Women spaces.

 

[Trillian]

Every 68 seconds another American is sexually assaulted, https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, the vast majority of those American's are CIS Women.

Every woman I know has either been sexually assaulted or knows someone who has. We’re all aware of the risk.

What percentage of those women are sexually assaulted by trans women in locker rooms? You forgot to include that statistic.

 

[overedge]

Why is anyone looking at anyone else's "tackle" in a changing room?
There are private areas (e.g. bathroom stall) in most changing rooms. Anyone who doesn't want to look at other people changing, or to be watched while they're changing, can use that part of the room.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Why is anyone looking at anyone else's "tackle" in a changing room?
There are private areas (e.g. bathroom stall) in most changing rooms. Anyone who doesn't want to look at other people changing, or to be watched while they're changing, can use that part of the room.

Based on my experience years in a high school change room for pe, even though we had private bathroom stalls and partitions for changing, there are always people (even cis woman) who like to put it all on display in the non-private areas that cannot be avoided….

 

[overedge]

Based on my experience years in a high school change room for pe, even though we had private bathroom stalls and partitions for changing, there are always people (even cis woman) who like to put it all on display in the non-private areas that cannot be avoided….

Which is why I said that people who don't want to look can use those private areas of the dressing room.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Which is why I said that people who don't want to look can use those private areas of the dressing room.

The girls change room in my hs was set up in a way that it was impossible to by-pass the non-private area. The private change areas and the bathroom stalls were at the back and you had to walk through the non-private area to get to the back to begin with and then back through to the only door leading in and out of the change room.

 

[Pink Cats]

Every woman I know has either been sexually assaulted or knows someone who has. We’re all aware of the risk.

What percentage of those women are sexually assaulted by trans women in locker rooms? You forgot to include that statistic.

Well my reaction to the potential risk is to ask that people who have penis not change in the ladies because as I pointed out before a trans woman who has not undergone reconstruction surgery can not be told apart from a CIS Man.

Based on my experience years in a high school change room for pe, even though we had private bathroom stalls and partitions for changing, there are always people (even cis woman) who like to put it all on display in the non-private areas that cannot be avoided….

Most of the ladies changing rooms I have been in may have 1 or 2 stall to change privately in but for the most part they are wide open and yes some people do like to walk around in the nude.

 

[MacMadame]

Why is anyone looking at anyone else's "tackle" in a changing room?
There are private areas (e.g. bathroom stall) in most changing rooms. Anyone who doesn't want to look at other people changing, or to be watched while they're changing, can use that part of the room.

There are some women I swim with who do this. I think it has something to do with their religion but they just may be more modest than the rest of us.

Well my reaction to the potential risk is to ask that people who have penis not change in the ladies because as I pointed out before a trans woman who has not undergone reconstruction surgery can not be told apart from a CIS Man.

Really? A trans woman on HRT will have breasts, for starters. They don't look like Cis men in many ways.

Cis men are not trolling through women's locker rooms looking for people to rape and trans women aren't raping women in locker rooms either.

 

[CassAgain]

It's wholly predictable but unfortunate that this has become a culture war issue, because there are so many nuances and legitimately competing interests. I don't think people with different opinions in this thread are trolling. As a teacher of several trans students and a mother of a biologically female college athlete, I don't think a black and white policy is beneficial or even possible.

 

[once_upon]

Whenever Trans women come up in discussions, there seems to be an unrational fear that the p*n*s, tackle, junk, dick, slong or whatever other names people assign to penis will somehow attack them or children. That trans women aren't able to control the appendage or something


I dont know for certain, because I was not born with a penis, but I would imagine for the vast majority or all of trans women don't want the penis on display. However, the woman's locker rooms and bathrooms are definitely a social environment where discussions on hair/make-up/clothing/relationship breakups happen. I can understand the social aspect.

Yes, I know all to well statistics of sexual assault. But quite certain I am not terrified of an assault by a trans woman who has not yet had surgical transistion. Frankly I'm more concerned about movie theaters, that's my experience.

If one is so frightened by the possibility that a trans woman might assault them, may I give the same advice you give them? There are the separate but private rooms available.

By the way, we should not be afraid to type the word or say the word.

But back to the sports discussion - more research with actual measureable parameters with both normal athletes and the elite level athletes is needed. Plus we need to stop focusing on just trans women, bit data on trans men.

 

[Trillian]

Based on my experience years in a high school change room for pe, even though we had private bathroom stalls and partitions for changing, there are always people (even cis woman) who like to put it all on display in the non-private areas that cannot be avoided….

Based on my experience, people who are most comfortable waving their junk around in public are cis people, not trans people. Public restrooms and locker rooms can be huge sources of anxiety for many trans people, and most of them just want to change their clothes quick before someone decides to call the police on them for existing.

 

[VGThuy]

Do people really think a trans woman needs reconstructive surgery in the genital area to be able to be recognized as a woman or a trans woman? That makes me question just how many trans women those people have actually met and conversed with. Anyway, many trans women still have their penises for a variety of reasons and many trans men also choose to keep their vaginas, some are due to the costs of such procedures, and others are personal reasons (for trans men, there's lots of reasons many opt not to get a penis), and for others still, some do not want to sterilize themselves. There's a reason why many more progressive states in the U.S. who already went through this debate a long time ago got rid of their medical procedures requirement for those who seek to change their gender markers on official documents.

 

[overedge]

If someone in a dressing room likes to walk around in the nude, and that makes you uncomfortable, don't look at them. It's that simple.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Really? A trans woman on HRT will have breasts, for starters. They don't look like Cis men in many ways.

Not all trans people choose HRT for a variety of reasons. A trans person not on HRT will obviously not have any physical changes in their body.

 

[bladesofgorey]

How about this? How about not policing to death trans people's bodies. "Trans people scare me" isn't the great liberal defense you think it is.

 

[aka_gerbil]

If someone in a dressing room likes to walk around in the nude, and that makes you uncomfortable, don't look at them. It's that simple.

I grant this is probably not a typical experience, but try that when there’s someone (in this case a cis gendere girl who was a bully to a lot of people in a lot of different ways) who decides to purposely get physically within inches of someone else with their bare body after verbally taunting the other girls who were trying not to look?

 

[bladesofgorey]

I grant this is probably not a typical experience, but try that when there’s someone (in this case a cis gendere girl who was a bully to a lot of people in a lot of different ways) who decides to purposely get physically within inches of someone else with their bare body after verbally taunting the other girls who were trying not to look?

Why is everyone twisting themselves into these hypotheticals? Are trans people more likely to be bullies? Doubtful. What does this have to do with anything other than "trans people oppress me"

 

[Deleted member 221]

Do people really think a trans woman needs reconstructive surgery in the genital area to be able to be recognized as a woman or a trans woman?

No, absolutely not. But when it comes to competing in a sport that's divided by sex rather than gender, I do think we should consider a person's sex rather than their gender. (We can still be gender inclusive.)

 

[aka_gerbil]

Why is everyone twisting themselves into these hypotheticals? Are trans people more likely to be bullies? Doubtful. What does this have to do with anything other than "trans people oppress me"

The specific situation I’m talking about is not a hypothetical. It’s a thing that actually happened. The person trying to avoid looking was one of my best friends.

 

[VGThuy]

No, absolutely not. But when it comes to competing in a sport that's divided by sex rather than gender, I do think we should consider a person's sex rather than their gender.

I get that argument, and I'll leave it to the sporting federations and activists who know more about that topic to discuss that. I was mainly responding to a post or a few posts on this page from a person who kept saying there was no difference or you couldn't tell the difference between a trans woman and a cis man if they had a penis, and it prompted me to speak about what I did know from my experiences with trans folk.

 

[MacMadame]

I grant this is probably not a typical experience, but try that when there’s someone (in this case a cis gendere girl who was a bully to a lot of people in a lot of different ways) who decides to purposely get physically within inches of someone else with their bare body after verbally taunting the other girls who were trying not to look?

WTF does this have to do with trans issues? I am sure there are rules about bullying in your school. The fact that they weren't enforced is a different problem that has nothing to do with gender issues or sports.

But back to the sports discussion - more research with actual measureable parameters with both normal athletes and the elite level athletes is needed. Plus we need to stop focusing on just trans women, bit data on trans men.

Speaking of trans men, there is a trans man who competes on the Women's swim team for Yale. He qualifies for the Women's team because he isn't on HRT yet and he wanted to continue to swim with his friends. This person is faster than Lia, btw. And also setting all sorts of records. But people only talk about Lia. Why is that?

Also, if you look at Lia's record, when she was on T for just over two years, she joined the Women's swim team at Penn. Her times were slower than when she was on the Men's team. So being on T did slow her down and take away some of her advantages that supposedly can never be overcome. Since then she's gotten faster. Because she's now been on T for almost 3 years, that has to be the result of hard work. Which is being discounted.