MacMadame
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I don't think that's true. Many former skaters and coaches are technical specialists. We even have technical specialists on FSU. They all have regular jobs and are volunteers just like the judges.
ISU Congress: Proposal to overhaul PCS
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AxelAnnie
Like a small boat on the ocean...
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You got that right! Figure Skating is a judged sport - as is Horse competitions. Anything that is judged by interpretation, makes it non-quantifiable. Skaters will get points, and the points will be added up, but the points are given by judges who have their own bias - no matter how small.
One place the bias really shows is in judging early skaters in the competition. Their scores are held down. That is not "fair". But then, after having spent years in the horse show ring, I know that you could be brilliant and not win, or you can have an error and win. Such fun. Although it was a great lesson for my daughters to learn.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Not just you. The charitable interpretation would be that they need more active judges/officials so they're letting them participate for longer. If that's the problem, the other way to fix it would be to lower the earliest age at which people can become international judges/officials (IIRC it's 40 now). But that would let in all those youngsters with their newfangled ideas about diversity and inclusion and fairness ?
It's most certainly under 40. Dan Fang, the former Chinese skater, was on the Olympic panel as not only an international judge but an ISU Championship judge and she's 36.
Age threshold to become International is 24 years old.
For example, Yan Lukouski passed the internatinal exam for ice dance last summer when he was 25.
allezfred
Mean Spirited
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It would be helpful if you fact checked before you posted things like this. ISU Rules 413 (Judges) and 415 (Technical specialists) state the minimum age is 24 and maximum age of 50 when initially appointed.
Thank you for that. I remember a skater from the late 90s/early 2000s (mostly because of her name being Chatziathanassiou and she was coached by Kovalev) who got to the ISU Championships as a judge, from what I can see, when she was 29 or 30. She was on all the major event panels circa 2009-2011.
Olympic judges had all their bio up on the Beijing 2022 website. So we know their year of birth.
Average age was roughly 55. Well, to be precise, the average year of birth was 1966.7
Dan Fang was the youngest. Her, Yang Fan, Binder of Austria and Andreeva of Russia were born in the 80s. 14 out of the 47 judges who officiated in Beijing were under 50 (born from 1972 downward).
Anastassiya Makarova was listed as born in 1977. She judged in Turin games. So at the time she must have been 28-29.
Similar age profile for Beijing technical panels. Average year of birth was 1967.7. Youngest is Elek who was born in 1984.
kwanfan1818
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I've long thought that jumps should be leveled, and that the technical panel should be setting them based on difficulty and features, like entrances and exits, and that GOE should not be based on features, but on flowout, rotation, air position, distance, balance and continuity of jumps in combos and sequences, height, power, etc., ie the quality of the jump.
Levels define what the element is, and GOE should define the quality of execution of the what.
MacMadame
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Yes, it's weird that jumps aren't leveled. Throws too (which are just assisted jumps).
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AYS
?
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So I guess TR is divvied up into composition and SKating tech and and PE and IN is folded into presentation, generally speaking. I’ll have to think about it.
I like the 5 categories now, but that doesn’t mean they tend to be used correctly, and I guess that’s a consideration.
I like the 5 categories now, but that doesn’t mean they tend to be used correctly, and I guess that’s a consideration.
gkelly
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First a judge has to become an International judge. In most cases, someone would have to have proven themselves judging at the domestic level before their federation would support them to get an international appointment.
Then they have to prove themselves and gain experience at non-championship events before getting promoted to ISU judge.
They may spend another couple years judging Euros/4Cs, Junior Worlds, GPF, before they get their first chance at Worlds.
Their federation has to be selected to have a judge on the panel, and if there are several qualified judges from that federation, they might have to wait their turn for the fed to choose them.
Olympics would take even longer, since it only happens once every four years.
It would likely happen quicker for someone who has the time to travel around volunteering as a judge at lower levels often enough to work their way up quickly, and also for someone from a smaller federation where they would have less competition for assignments from other judges from the same country.
Then they have to prove themselves and gain experience at non-championship events before getting promoted to ISU judge.
They may spend another couple years judging Euros/4Cs, Junior Worlds, GPF, before they get their first chance at Worlds.
Their federation has to be selected to have a judge on the panel, and if there are several qualified judges from that federation, they might have to wait their turn for the fed to choose them.
Olympics would take even longer, since it only happens once every four years.
It would likely happen quicker for someone who has the time to travel around volunteering as a judge at lower levels often enough to work their way up quickly, and also for someone from a smaller federation where they would have less competition for assignments from other judges from the same country.
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overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Which is why I said "IIRC". It would be helpful if you read the entire post before snapping back. You could have shared this information without getting snotty about it.
CaliSteve
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В ISU предложили внедрить в фигурное катание новый компонент
Технический комитет Международного союза конькобежцев (ISU) выдвинул на конгресс организации предложение о реформировании компонентов в фигурном катании, следует из предварительной повестки заседания конгресса, оказавшейся в распоряжении «Матч ТВ».beta.matchtv.ru
A team lead by Alla Shekhovtsova is proposing to simplify the PCS system by decreasing the number of categories from 5 to 3. If I understand this article correctly, their proposal is
Men
SP: 3 categories * 10 points * scale factor 1.67 = 50.1 (currently 5 categories * 10 points * scale factor 1 = 50)
FS: 3 categories * 10 points * scale factor 3.33 = 99.9 (currently 5 categories * 10 points * scale factor 2 = 100)
Women and pairs
SP: 3 categories * 10 points * scale factor 1.33 = 39.9 (currently 5 categories * 10 points * scale factor 0.8 = 40)
FS: 3 categories * 10 points * scale factor 2.67 = 80.1 (currently 5 categories * 10 points * scale factor 1.6 = 80)
Ice dance
RD: 3 categories * 10 points * scale factor 1.33 = 39.9 (currently 5 categories * 10 points * scale factor 0.8 = 40)
FD: 3 categories * 10 points * scale factor 2.00 = 60.0 (currently 5 categories * 10 points * scale factor 1.2 = 60)
The fact that this is proposed by Alla...
The working group appointed by ISU who was working on the PCS proposals was composed by Alla, Leanna Caron of Skate Canada, Paolo Pizzoccari of Italy and Karen Wolanchuk from US.
Foolhardy Ham Lint
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If a skater like Trusova can win the free skate at the Olympics, just be done with it and call skating a triple and quadruple content, or simply bring back Top Jump.
Having said this, I kind of liked the 1981 World Championships where skaters simply included everything good they did (sometimes repeated) within the set time frame.
From time to time, you'll see what an athlete is capable of more in practice than the actual event.
Having said this, I kind of liked the 1981 World Championships where skaters simply included everything good they did (sometimes repeated) within the set time frame.
From time to time, you'll see what an athlete is capable of more in practice than the actual event.
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I stopped reading right there.
The judges give her 9s on PCS. It's a joke, right? If she win tech by 20 points, good for her. But the PCS is not right. Doesn't matter how many categories, the judging will adjust to manipulate the scores into the order they want.
These proposals are just shell game to hide what's really going on.
MacMadame
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Not really. She's mostly in the 8s. This season she a 9.0 and a 9.07 in the Olympic FS. All other PCS at her one GP (SkAm), and Euros and the Olympic SP she got PCS in the 8s. So out of 30 marks (5 for SP, 5 for FS for 3 events), she got two 9s.
Oly free skate PCS:
Sakamoto 74
Trusova 71
Valieva 71
Wakaba 69
Young You 68
Aside from the fact that Shcherbakova scored even higher (75), which is also not right, let's just look at these scores.
Valieva fell on her butt two times, stumbled on three or four other jumps, hurried through her music (understandably) just to get the nightmare over with, and still scored higher PCS than Wakaba and Young You, who brought down the house with the skate of her life. Trusova did almost nothing except ping pong quads back and forth across the ice, and also scored higher PCS than all other non-Russian skaters except Kaori. Even against Kaori, the difference in PCS scores compared to the actual difference in their skating and presentation (they are miles and miles apart) was negligible. Three whopping points.
What we have here -- unless you are Russian federation official, judge, or skater, trying to arrange the results in pre-determined almost unbeatable manner -- is scoring and judging that is clearly broken. For years the same people have manipulated the scoring system to arrange one set of skaters consistently at the top. The last person who should ever make proposal would be Alla Shekhovtsova because she is one who started this farce in the first place.
Something something about fox guarding hen house I'm sure.
Before anyone can even talk about changing the scoring system, the fundamental integrity of the scores being given has to be addressed. Trusova getting 71 on PCS ahead of Wakaba and Young You ... it doesn't matter what are the scoring rules; if the ones who apply them (the judges) are that fundamentally dishonest and corrupt, they will do the same thing with another system. Five categories, three categories. Doesn't matter. Such proposals by Alla Shekhovtsova are stupid red herrings.
If the ISU can somehow actually get to a point where the judging has more integrity, then Robin Cousins made a second point during the British Olympics broadcast. He said the technical marks are so wide compared to PCS that PCS basically doesn't matter. I agree, something should be done to balance the skating more. If Trusova can finish 20-30 points ahead on technical content, and then another skater like Kaori finishes 3 points ahead on PCS, what does PCS matter? It doesn't. The scoring needs to be balanced out more. Maybe Trusova should be 20-30 points ahead on technical, but Kaori should be 10-15 points ahead on components. That would still give Trusova advantage for harder technical content, and push other skater to try harder technical content too, but the gap would be closer which is what people want to see.
The same problem with compulsory figures weighting was fixed several decades ago. That's what people want to see.
But it won't matter if the integrity of the judging remains this horrible. Trusova and Valieva with two falls and multiple other stumbles not even concentrating on her music, their PCS ahead of Wakaba and Young You. Really?
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MacMadame
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Now you are changing the argument. You said Trusova gets 9s and that shows PCS are messed up. But she doesn't get 9s.
Vagabond
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? I never though I'd say this, but maybe it's time to resurrect 6.0. 
Foolhardy Ham Lint
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Simpler times. Yes.? I never though I'd say this, but maybe it's time to resurrect 6.0.
IJS seems to have spat out programs which tip the balance in favour of big jumps and little else. To play the game means sacrificing originality and interest.
I remember watching one of the Chinese Men at a Junior World Championship thrill with amazing jumps, slow spins, and pedestrian choreography. He earned 5.7 - 5.9 for technical merit, and around 4.8 - 5.2 for composition and style, which seemed about right.
Cachoo
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Leave speed skating to the ISU. Maybe it is time for a new union for figure skating.
skatingguy
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I hear this argument a lot, and I think that the scoring system takes the blame for a change in the sport that was going to happen either way. Sport, across the board, became more professional in the 1990's and part of what that means in a sport like figure skating is that program choreography moves towards what's being rewarded by the judges rather than working to fit the athlete's personality.
MAXSwagg
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The point is that her PCS, even if they’re 8s, are way too high.
skateboy
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Honestly, I felt that they threw out the baby with the bath water. 6.0 (or maybe 10.0) could have been saved, with the correct implementations.? I never though I'd say this, but maybe it's time to resurrect 6.0.
But I'm sure many fans would disagree with me.
MacMadame
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I think the skaters would disagree and that's more important to me. With IJS, they get detailed protocols that show them what the judges are seeing and thinking. With 6.0, they'd have to ask each judge and would often get unhelpful and vague feedback. But seeing that you didn't get a high level on your step sequence because your steps were clean is something you can work with.
The detailed protocols are BS, not PCS.
