ISU Congress: Proposal to overhaul PCS

[MacMadame]

The detailed protocols are BS, not PCS.

So PCS are BS because Trusova gets 9s but she doesn't get 9s and it's actually the detailed protocols are BS. Got it.

 

[KaoriFan]

So PCS are BS because Trusova gets 9s but she doesn't get 9s and it's actually the detailed protocols are BS. Got it.

Thank you RusFed we have new scoring system that scores Trusova higher components than Young You and Wakaba Higuchi.

Please Alla Shekhovtsova may we have another?

 

[MacMadame]

Thank you RusFed we have new scoring system that scores Trusova higher components than Young You and Wakaba Higuchi.

And now we are back to the PCS.

 

[bcash]

So PCS are BS because Trusova gets 9s but she doesn't get 9s and it's actually the detailed protocols are BS. Got it.

She should have gotten 5s based on the listed criteria. What's so hard to understand?

 

[MacMadame]

She should have gotten 5s based on the listed criteria. What's so hard to understand?

We've been through this before. She doesn't deserve 5s based on the listed criteria. The criteria cover Juvenile through Senior-level skating. Trusova skates with power and speed. Her edges may not be as good as the skaters who get 9s but she skates laps around skaters who get 5s.

 

[Coco]

There is no appetite amongst the IOC or ISU for winners to be determined by PCS. They want it to be about the difficulty and execution.

PCS categories are nebulous by design. For example, they can be high because the skater did well or high because the skater is talented or high because the skater attempted something difficult. And you can't compare from competition to competition, except for when you can. This just exacerbates the need by tptb for TES to determine the winner. The fact that PCS are now so strongly correlated with base value is just judges leaning into this way of seeing things.

 

[KaoriFan]

PCS categories are nebulous by design. For example, they can be high because the skater did well or high because the skater is talented or high because the skater attempted something difficult. And you can't compare from competition to competition, except for when you can.

This part is absolutely right. Nebulous by design. PCS is meant to be catch-all to put the skaters in the order federations want.

There is no appetite amongst the IOC or ISU for winners to be determined by PCS. They want it to be about the difficulty and execution.

Bolded not quite right. It's not about difficulty and execution-- it's about predictability. Figure skating has a long tradition of being processional, you can go back to the seniority system, politicking etc. Rotations are easily predicted before competitions, skaters can be traded by federations making back-room deals. Falls, stumbles, levels, choreography, competition-to-competition performance, these things all have much more variance. More variance equals less predictability equals bad for deal-making.

The federations at the top have power and like to keep their power. It's boorish behavior.

Of course these countries have deeper bench, more talent, coaches, resources to develop their talent, they should produce better results over time. Even when the smaller country skater overcomes these disadvantages, the results can be close and subjective; everyone should understand that the more powerful federation will act with their discretion in these cases and likely place their skaters ahead of the competition when they can.

The real problem happens when the powerful federation act unscrupulously, boorish, try to arrange the results ahead of time without regard for the actual skating on the ice. They identify their main competition for medal, top-5, top-10 finish, places at worlds, Olympics, etc. and intentionally hold certain skaters back. Prop up their skaters way beyond warranted.

When they act with such indiscretion, they invite outrage, as they should. Nobody wants to see fixed competitions. Some skaters have advantages, sure, but on their bad days, and on other skaters good days, the results should flip. If someone doesn't like that kind of outcome, then do better. Train harder. Don't fix the scoring system, rig the judging, or dope because you don't like unpredictability or want to win all the competitions or sweep the podium every time.

 

[allezfred]

Leave speed skating to the ISU. Maybe it is time for a new union for figure skating.

People from countries with large membership and talent pools say this without realising that this would mean the total bankrupting of figure skating in certain countries and vice versa for speed skating in others.

 

[Cachoo]

People from countries with large membership and talent pools say this without realising that this would mean the total bankrupting of figure skating in certain countries and vice versa for speed skating in others.

But if you knew there was a way to do it without harm would it be attractive to you? Or will any organization always have problems because the judging can be subjective?

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Glad to know that going back to 6.0 would stop political judging and predetermined results.

 

[The Accordion]

Glad to know that going back to 6.0 would stop political judging and predetermined results.

And it would be much more logical and easy to understand and explain, obviously.

 

[On My Own]

I've long thought that jumps should be leveled, and that the technical panel should be setting them based on difficulty and features, like entrances and exits, and that GOE should not be based on features, but on flowout, rotation, air position, distance, balance and continuity of jumps in combos and sequences, height, power, etc., ie the quality of the jump.

Levels define what the element is, and GOE should define the quality of execution of the what.

Thanks for the interesting idea. I disagree. I think the addition of a level in terms of a jump is done with the addition of a rotation. (I don't think a twist needs a level either; I wish they would make the BV of quad twists higher again)

 

[On My Own]

About the conversation on PCS: I disagree that we can discuss PCS in a competition without looking at the actual performances. And I disagree we can look at Trusova's PCS without looking at how others performed on the day.

And there are many skaters in juniors who get low SS scores (5, 6, 7, whatever), despite deserving more, and the same for many skaters in seniors. The reasoning of "Trusova doesn't deserve low SS scores because it also covers Juvenile skating" is bs, because her level is factually lower than many who score lower than her on that criteria. No one's looking at Trusova's LP at the Olympics and thiking it deserved a higher SS score than Gubanova or Higuchi (or Yelim Kim or Mana Kawabe or Maddie Schizas or Karen Chen of the ones who finished out of the top 10 in the LP) or not even half-a-point lower than Sakamoto, or at least they shouldn't.

But then again, it's coming from the person who said "the judges disagree that whatever hip-shattering loopsaltoe is taught to skaters isn't a legitimate technique, so it is you who "apparently" can't tell which foot and edge the jumps take off from!1!!!1111!one!eleven" so meh, at least my brain isn't yogurt.

 

[Seerek]

She should have gotten 5s based on the listed criteria. What's so hard to understand?

Let's say Trusova is 30th in components in the short program, and 25th in components in the free skate.

She would still be within range to contend for Olympic bronze if her TES remained the same.

I still think the real issue is the GOEs on the quads.

 

[tony]

Let's say Trusova is 30th in components in the short program, and 25th in components in the free skate.

She would still be within range to contend for Olympic bronze if her TES remained the same.

I still think the real issue is the GOEs on the quads.

This right here is what I argue every single time someone brings up the PCS being whack. Don't get me wrong, I think there are always problems with it. I also, back to the early days of Trusova winning things, was arguing against her PCS being in the 5's or 6's or even low 7's. People who only watch senior events might think she should be in the 2's or 3's, but this system is for all levels of skating and it's not 'rank the seniors from 0 to 10 based on the quality within this level only'. It's rank it against a system as a whole.

There was a similar argument at the last World Championships where I demonstrated, IIRC, dropping Trusova's PCS across the board 1 point each, would still result in her getting onto the podium. I might be wrong here and I'm on my phone so it's more complicated to verify, but there definitely could've been a drop to still land her a medal. The women with quads are running away with TES, sometimes at or over 100 points where most other 6 or 7 triple skaters are in the low 70s. A 30 point TES advantage is nearly the equivalent in an LP to a non-quad skater getting all 10's in PCS and the 100-point TES skater getting about 6.25 across the board and still winning. Should PCS be scored better? I'm first in line to say yes. But it's not likely to change results all that often in the case of the big-jump skaters. GOE's are a different story, of course.

 

[AYS]

I'm sure others have a much clearer idea of all the ramifications and have plenty of arguments against my view, but on an intuitive level, it bothers the heck out of the me that you can get almost 5 points GOE on top of an already whopping ~11 base score for a quad flip, for example, while only being able to get something <2 points points on top of a measly 4 pt base score for a perfectly executed L4 spin. It seems like there is very little margin to differentiate between the best spins or step seqs in the world and merely adequate spins/steps seqs (both in terms of levels and GOEs) relative to the points available for jumps. Fine, give a 7 point difference in base score, but then to add on top of that a huge potential differential with proportional GOEs seems extreme.

 

[Winnipeg]

Will FS ever be free of scoring challenges and discussions?

 

[AYS]

Will FS ever be free of scoring challenges and discussions?

It's a testament to the complexity and subjectively interpreted beauty of this sport we love, and the foibles of human nature, that the answer to this question is no.

 

[Pink Cats]

Should PCS be scored better? I'm first in line to say yes. But it's not likely to change results all that often in the case of the big-jump skaters. GOE's are a different story, of course.

I went and did a little mathematical exercise for the Women's Skate America. I replaced Alexandra Trusova PCs with those of the skater who placed last.

For the Short

Pl. ​	Name​	Nation​	TSS​	TES​	PCS​	SS​	TR​	PE​	CO​	IN​	Ded.​
=​	+​	+​	-​
2​	Daria Usacheva	RUS​	76.71​	42.24​	34.5​	8.54​	8.36​	8.82​	8.61​	8.75​	0​
3​	Kseniia Sinitsyna	RUS​	71.51​	39.62​	31.9​	7.89​	7.79​	8.07​	8.04​	8.07​	0​
1​	Alexandra Trusova	RUS​	71.33​	42.21​	29.1​	7.5​	7.04​	7.29​	7.29​	7.29​	0​
4​	Kaori Sakamoto	JPN​	71.16​	36.52​	34.6​	8.89​	8.43​	8.68​	8.68​	8.64​	0​
5​	Young You	KOR​	70.73​	39.02​	32.7​	8.46​	8.07​	8.14​	8.07​	8.14​	1​
6​	Yelim Kim	KOR​	70.56​	38.84​	31.7​	8.11​	7.64​	8.11​	7.93​	7.86​	0​
7​	Amber Glenn	USA​	67.57​	36.38​	31.2​	7.93​	7.39​	7.93​	7.86​	7.89​	0​
8​	Satoko Miyahara	JPN​	66.36​	31.93​	34.4​	8.61​	8.43​	8.54​	8.71​	8.75​	0​
9​	Audrey Shin	USA​	62.82​	32.1​	30.7​	7.57​	7.46​	7.75​	7.79​	7.82​	0​
10​	Starr Andrews	USA​	61.94​	32.02​	29.9​	7.46​	7.29​	7.54​	7.57​	7.54​	0​
11​	Ekaterina Kurakova	POL​	61.36​	31.5​	29.9​	7.32​	7.25​	7.54​	7.64​	7.57​	0​
12​	Yuhana YOKOI	JPN​	54.77​	25.65​	29.1​	7.5​	7.04​	7.29​	7.29​	7.29​	0​

Instead of first, she is third

For the Long

Pl.	Name	Nation	TSS​	TES​	PCS​	SS	TR	PE	CO	IN	Ded.​
			=​	+​	+​						-​
2​	Young You	KOR​	146.24​	77.09​	69.15​	8.68​	8.29​	8.89​	8.68​	8.68​	0​
3​	Kaori Sakamoto	JPN​	144.77​	74.54​	70.23​	9​	8.54​	8.93​	8.71​	8.71​	0​
1​	Alexandra Trusova	RUS​	143.66​	85.68​	57.98​	7.39​	7.21​	6.89​	7.46​	7.29​	0​
4​	Daria Usacheva	RUS​	140.6​	71.05​	69.55​	8.68​	8.61​	8.71​	8.75​	8.71​	0​
5​	Kseniia Sinitsyna	RUS​	134.25​	69.97​	64.28​	7.96​	7.96​	8.11​	8.07​	8.07​	0​
6​	Satoko Miyahara	JPN​	134.15​	65.24​	68.91​	8.5​	8.39​	8.68​	8.75​	8.75​	0​
7​	Amber Glenn	USA​	133.45​	67.57​	65.88​	8.29​	7.96​	8.39​	8.25​	8.29​	0​
8​	Yelim Kim	KOR​	128.78​	64.91​	64.87​	8.25​	7.86​	8.18​	8.18​	8.07​	1​
9​	Ekaterina Kurakova	POL​	127.24​	66.45​	60.79​	7.43​	7.21​	7.71​	7.75​	7.89​	0​
10​	Yuhana Yokoi	JPN​	119.3​	60.26​	59.04​	7.5​	7.07​	7.54​	7.36​	7.43​	0​
11​	Starr Andrews	USA​	115.69​	56.88​	58.81​	7.32​	7.21​	7.43​	7.43​	7.36​	0​
12​	Audrey Shin	USA​	97.96​	43.98​	57.98​	7.39​	7.21​	6.89​	7.46​	7.29​	4​

Again she is in third, but most interesting overall, she drops off the podium.

Pl.​	Name​		Points​	SP​	FS​
2​	Daria Usacheva	RUS​	217.31​	2​	4​
3​	Young You	KOR​	216.97​	5​	2​
4​	Kaori Sakamoto	JPN​	215.93​	4​	3​
1​	Alexandra Trusova	RUS​	214.99​	3​	3​
5​	Kseniia Sinitsyna	RUS​	205.76​	3​	5​
6​	Amber Glenn	USA​	201.02​	7​	7​
7​	Satoko Miyahara	JPN​	200.51​	8​	6​
8​	Yelim Kim	KOR​	199.34​	6​	8​
9​	Ekaterina Kurakova	POL​	188.6​	11​	9​
10​	Starr Andrews	USA​	177.63​	10​	11​
11​	Yuhana Yokoi	JPN​	174.07​	12​	10​
12​	Audrey Shin	USA​	160.78​	9​	12​

 

[skipaway]

I still think the real issue is the GOEs on the quads.

This! This is where the bulk of points come from when judges are trying to prop up their favorite.
l

 

[MacMadame]

I replaced Alexandra Trusova PCs with those of the skater who placed last.

Trusova's PCS scores should not be that low.

 

[beckab81]

We tend to talk about PCS as one thing (usually around skating skills in this type of discussion), but it should be 5 different measurements. Trusova probably should be getting 7-8 in SS, but what about Transitions, Performance, Etc? In her long, I'd say the rest of the PCS should be marked lower, since she primarily skates from jump to jump.

Looking at someone other than Trusova, I would love to see Taljegard marked properly for Performance, Compostion & Interpretation. Taljegard received low 7's for one of my favorite performances of the night, while Trusova received 8.96 for each. I don't think that 3 PSC categories would help move judges away from this corridor mentality unfortunately.

 

[Aussie Willy]

And it would be much more logical and easy to understand and explain, obviously.

"They were better"

 

[Aussie Willy]

Will FS ever be free of scoring challenges and discussions?

No

 

[VGThuy]

Wow, seeing Trusova‘s “new” PCS in that exercise was the first time I saw scores that made sense for her skating. Now, I’m sure everyone else could be lowered a bit too but finally.

 

[screech]

We've been through this before. She doesn't deserve 5s based on the listed criteria. The criteria cover Juvenile through Senior-level skating. Trusova skates with power and speed. Her edges may not be as good as the skaters who get 9s but she skates laps around skaters who get 5s.

IMO that's like saying a high school student shouldn't be getting 50% on a math test because they're learning harder stuff than elementary school students, so should only be getting between 80-100%, no matter how they actually do on the test. When you get down to the lower-ranked ladies at the Olympics, you see skaters getting in the 6s for components. Why is it okay for them to get 6s for all components when things like their composition are no worse than Trusova's?

IMO the issue also isn't the number of components, but the fact that they're all scored similarly. Someone like Trusova could reasonably get decent scores for things like Transitions, but for Composition and Interpretation should be a lot lower. Just because someone kicks their leg or does a cantilever or a turn does not mean their program is actually well choreographed or interprets the music.

While I get why it's there, I never really liked the 'Composition' component. That component is all about the choreography, which to me isn't about the actual skater.

 

[Pink Cats]

Trusova's PCS scores should not be that low.

High 6s and Low 7 are what she deserves

 

[MacMadame]

High 6s and Low 7 are what she deserves

I disagree. I think her skating skills are being scored correctly.

MO that's like saying a high school student shouldn't be getting 50% on a math test because they're learning harder stuff than elementary school students, so should only be getting between 80-100%, no matter how they actually do on the test.

This analogy doesn't work because PCS are supposed to be absolutes, not relatives. A 5 has a meaning. It's not different criteria if you are scoring novice skaters vs. scoring senior skaters.

 

[AxelAnnie]

IMO that's like saying a high school student shouldn't be getting 50% on a math test because they're learning harder stuff than elementary school students, so should only be getting between 80-100%, no matter how they actually do on the test. When you get down to the lower-ranked ladies at the Olympics, you see skaters getting in the 6s for components. Why is it okay for them to get 6s for all components when things like their composition are no worse than Trusova's?

IMO the issue also isn't the number of components, but the fact that they're all scored similarly. Someone like Trusova could reasonably get decent scores for things like Transitions, but for Composition and Interpretation should be a lot lower. Just because someone kicks their leg or does a cantilever or a turn does not mean their program is actually well choreographed or interprets the music.

While I get why it's there, I never really liked the 'Composition' component. That component is all about the choreography, which to me isn't about the actual skater.

Well, it is pretty much NOT like your test example. Tests are geared to grade level. So a 5th grader would not get a test (absent odd circumstances) for either a 3rd grader, or an 8th grader.

Total agreement about the rest of it...well maybe not Trusova....but giving a component score to someone who sticks her leg out is nuts.

Trusova is fabulous at what she does....no one even comes close to her personal skating revolution. Unfortunately, the PCS scores are used sometimes as placeholders - just like in the old system.

Is there anyone who did not think that would happen?

It is always thus in judged sports. Many if not most sports have some element of judging (like in tennis when the judge gets to call a ball in or out). That was, IMO, just a mess.

 

[Seerek]

High 6s and Low 7 are what she deserves

Trusova would still medal at 2022 Olympics and Europeans, but she is off the podium at events like 2021 Worlds, 2021 Skate America and 2019 Grand Prix Final.