Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[Trillian]

I was alive then and remember Surya. This revision of history that Surya was a victim of racism is the latest "woke" narrative of events.

<snip>

However Surya had an amazing professional career. She was invited to COI annually and professional events. Her back flip landed on one leg into a triple salchow combination was very popular.

Wow, there’s some real “figure skating can’t be racist, it has a Black friend” energy here. Very impressive.

Surya’s competitive results might have been mostly correct (I was young enough that I’m not going to pretend I know for sure), but the dialogue surrounding her entire career had a constant undercurrent of racism. Both those things can be true. Pretending her race had no impact on her career is some real revisionist history.

 

[emason]

The baroque OD was the bestest.

Yes, it was. Out of boredom, I was keeping tally in my program of how many men wore military uniforms and how many wore tails. There was so little imagination in the entire group. Den/Sta and their team went back a full century from everyone else, picked that gorgeous Baroque music, and produced a masterpiece.

 

[allezfred]

Well she had better skating skills than she was credited for.

Her skating technique was pretty bad, but in fairness it improved a lot when she retired and moved to the States.

 

[soogar]

<snip>


Wow, there’s some real “figure skating can’t be racist, it has a Black friend” energy here. Very impressive.

Surya’s competitive results might have been mostly correct (I was young enough that I’m not going to pretend I know for sure), but the dialogue surrounding her entire career had a constant undercurrent of racism. Both those things can be true. Pretending her race had no impact on her career is some real revisionist history.

That was not the energy surrounding her career when she competed. I never said figure skating wasn't racist. I also think that if you can't remember her results, then how can you even discuss the dialogue around her career? The dialogue at the time of her career was that she could not skate. Many of the skaters whom she competed against still had background in figures, and she was the worse one out there. Choppy crossovers and stroking. Only now, is there this narrative that she was discriminated against because she was black. It's like everyone wants to ignore that she could not skate. She had big elements and that was it. Trusova looks more artistic than Surya. You can watch all of her performances and listen to the commentary. Watch her competitors as well and you will see that sloppily performed elements were not rewarded under 6.0. This Olympics, we saw that a 5 quad program with sloppy elements did not win.

I gave you some facts. She was a top French skater who was promoted heavily by the French federation. She was dressed in designer costumes from a top French couture designer. She was consistently the top European skater and had performances at worlds that always contained an error and her skating skills were not great. She actually has better skating skills now than she had as an amateur. Even as a pro, she had better skating skills.

It seems to me, that at the time, the French didn't have votes in pairs and dance to trade for her to win, and countries with stronger feds like the United States had their own ladies to push.

 

[bladesofgorey]

anyone who uses the term "woke" in a derogatory manner pretty much negates any "I'm not denying racism but..." that follows it.

 

[Justlooking]

That was not the energy surrounding her career when she competed. I never said figure skating wasn't racist. I also think that if you can't remember her results, then how can you even discuss the dialogue around her career? The dialogue at the time of her career was that she could not skate. Many of the skaters whom she competed against still had background in figures, and she was the worse one out there. Choppy crossovers and stroking. Only now, is there this narrative that she was discriminated against because she was black.

I kind of agree withh soogar. In this podcast with surya https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/edge

There's this extract which is interesting

Latif Nasser: Well I asked her. Did you feel that any of the difficulty was because you're black?

Surya Bonaly: No, no.

Latif Nasser: Did you feel like any of it was about race? No?

Surya Bonaly: No, no, no.

Latif Nasser: But then moments later she said-

Surya Bonaly: Well, you know. When you're black, you know. Everybody knows that you have to do better than anybody else who's white.

When I listened I had this impression that they pushed into saying this last sentence.

 

[Trillian]

That was not the energy surrounding her career when she competed. I never said figure skating wasn't racist. I also think that if you can't remember her results, then how can you even discuss the dialogue around her career?

I do remember her results, I just didn’t know skating as well and I don’t have detailed memories of who did what in each event. I remember the stories and personalities from that era very well, and was certainly old enough to remember what people said about her.

The dialogue at the time of her career was that she could not skate. Many of the skaters whom she competed against still had background in figures, and she was the worse one out there. Choppy crossovers and stroking. Only now, is there this narrative that she was discriminated against because she was black.

I do remember that, and my memory is that it was probably warranted. I also cringe every time the backflip conversation makes the rounds because I remember the reality of that one very well. That said, there was a lot of coded racism in the way people discussed her skating and her physical appearance, and the way some people were much more inclined to give other skaters a pass for their flaws while continually harping on hers. Just because the one invented story didn’t really happen that way doesn’t mean the rest of it didn’t happen.

As for why people talk about it now when they didn’t back then, that’s because people are much better about recognizing and calling out subtle racism than they were 30 years ago. Well, some of us, I guess.

 

[Bigbird]

Getting back to the poor Spaniard pair team though, will they be getting heart-shaped, Olympic Rings, necklaces or what?

 

[Maximillian]

Add me to the list. I could feel the sharp knives aimed at my back because I dared to do this.

That's how I felt at 2003 Worlds in D.C. though I was keeping company with some delightful Canadians.

 

[soogar]

When I listened I had this impression that they pushed into saying this last sentence.

This thread is totally hijacked, but Surya has a very different experience than most American Blacks. She grew up in France. I don't think Surya herself embraced this narrative of racism until this documentary series from Netflix came out called "Losers" which cast Surya's story as one battling racism [Surya Bonaly dazzled figure skating fans with her skill, but being black in a mostly white sport made it tough to be fairly judged on the world stage."] - the synopsis under "Judgement" . https://www.netflix.com/title/80198306


It's clear that there is a dialogue now around Surya. and no one has really discussed her until this documentary. Now everyone just parrots the narrative of this documentary which only wants to discuss Surya's experience from a race perspective, when the reality is that Surya's experience is very common to skaters who just don't listen to feedback and/or are from a small Federation. The judges hammer skaters all the time from small Feds. We saw it at this Olympics with many of the skaters who were not from big feds. She had lost to Yuka Sato because Sato actually had great skating skills. Surya thought she was robbed because she did more, but Sato was so smooth out there. This is under 6.0 which was an unfair system to begin with.

 

[Vagabond]

I can't at all these neverending discussions about 'wuzrobbed' cases from the 90s and early 00s. Lol, maybe it's time to move on?

Some of us are still processing the "wuzrobbed" from the Men's event at the 1968 Winter Olympic Games. And don't even get me started on 1902 Worlds.

 

[Trillian]

It's clear that there is a dialogue now around Surya. and no one has really discussed her until this documentary. Now everyone just parrots the narrative of this documentary which only wants to discuss Surya's experience from a race perspective, when the reality is that Surya's experience is very common to skaters who just don't listen to feedback and/or are from a small Federation. The judges hammer skaters all the time from small Feds.

I don’t know that France would be considered a “small fed,” now or then. I agree that there’s a lot more complexity to her story than just race, and the uninformed articles that have circulated over the last few years have done a terrible job of telling her story. But the obsession with talking about how muscular she was and her “exotic” origins, and the fact that she wasn’t considered to have the right “look” for a ladies skating champion - that all happened at the time, it wasn’t a later fabrication, and a lot of it was pretty racist. The fact that the conversation is happening very poorly now doesn’t mean the premise is fundamentally incorrect.

 

[Allskate]

Choppy crossovers and stroking.

And very telegraphed jumps as well as some sloppiness in some elements.

I just have a very hard time believing that she didn't know that this was holding her back with scores or that any such ignorance would have been due to racism. I know that it didn't help having her mother as a coach at times. But, I have a hard time believing that they weren't aware of the criticisms about her skating quality that so many people were discussing, including publicly. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some racism in skating or that she didn't experience it. And possibly a sexist element, too. (I do remember Timothy Goebel being adversely affected by the rest of his skating despite the quads and I remember mentions of those weaknesses in commentary, but my general sense was that jumping difficulty was more lauded with men than with "ladies.") In any event, there clearly were some pretty obvious and valid other factors that affected Surya's scores. And the difference in skating quality was all the more glaring when she competed against Yuka Sato, who was so incredibly strong in that area.

 

[barbk]

This thread is totally hijacked, but Surya has a very different experience than most American Blacks. She grew up in France. I don't think Surya herself embraced this narrative of racism until this documentary series from Netflix came out called "Losers" which cast Surya's story as one battling racism [Surya Bonaly dazzled figure skating fans with her skill, but being black in a mostly white sport made it tough to be fairly judged on the world stage."] - the synopsis under "Judgement" . https://www.netflix.com/title/80198306


It's clear that there is a dialogue now around Surya. and no one has really discussed her until this documentary. Now everyone just parrots the narrative of this documentary which only wants to discuss Surya's experience from a race perspective, when the reality is that Surya's experience is very common to skaters who just don't listen to feedback and/or are from a small Federation. The judges hammer skaters all the time from small Feds. We saw it at this Olympics with many of the skaters who were not from big feds. She had lost to Yuka Sato because Sato actually had great skating skills. Surya thought she was robbed because she did more, but Sato was so smooth out there. This is under 6.0 which was an unfair system to begin with.

My memory is that many of the French skaters (except for the ice dancers) had some really awful skating skills & some fabulous artistic qualities. Phillipe Candeloro? Laurent Tobel? Not great in the skating skills sense, but incredible showmen. Tobel was regularly invited to perform at exhibitions even when he did not finish highly in the competition. Laetitia Hubert and Marie-Pierre Leray were often not great to watch. Surya Bonaly had some fantastic jumps but visibly poorer skating skills than her leading contemporaries (Chen Lu, Yuka Sato, Michelle Kwan, Nicole Bobek). Maybe it was just that it was a lot more visible in the arena rather than on TV? Like Candeloro and Tobel, she was an amazing exhibition skater.

I do remember her getting rousing receptions at COI.

 

[skategal]

Yuka Sato only won on a 5-4 split despite having superior skating skills,
Footwork, spins, transitions and what we would now call much more +GOE on the jumps than Surya. Yuka doubled one of her jumps.

Surya had a hand down on a jump and a cheated 3-3 in her program.

I had to rewatch their LPs from 1994 Worlds in light of this discussion .

 

[myhoneyhoney]

I never understood all the negative talk regarding her costumes and how she didn’t wear tights. That was apparently a cardinal sin.

 

[MacMadame]

Yes, sure, you are right. I am sure that people who were posting here the caricatures of Valieva shoving drugs in her month with plenty of injections in the background had only loving and caring feelings towards Valieva.

A completely inaccurate description of the conversation on FSU.

Add me to the list. I could feel the sharp knives aimed at my back because I dared to do this.

You guys need to find better people to sit with. Everyone in my section pretty much clapped for everyone.

 

[Carolla5501]

Never mind I didn’t realize how far behind I was

 

[Justlooking]

Her skating technique was pretty bad, but in fairness it improved a lot when she retired and moved to the States.

I remember watching the French version of Ice Skating With the stars (???) and Surya Bonaly was very insistent on her star student learning the basics before learning the big tricks, maybe she thought of her own career ..

 

[soogar]

I never understood all the negative talk regarding her costumes and how she didn’t wear tights. That was apparently a cardinal sin.

That was the only truly racist thing she had to deal with. She couldn't wear tights because they didn't make any in her skin color. I do think that could have influenced judges perception of her.

 

[Frau Muller]

Some of us are still processing the "wuzrobbed" from the Men's event at the 1968 Winter Olympic Games. And don't even get me started on 1902 Worlds.

TIM WOOD WUZ ROBBED IN 1968 GRENOBLE! Such musicality & glide! Later, twice World Champ for the USA.

1902 I don’t quite remember (ha ha) but I’ve read about it…the woman, Mrs. Syers, came in 2nd to Salchow.

I couldn’t resist. Back to topic.

 

[canbelto]

I remember Sandra Bezic being subtly racist in her commentary of Surya. I found Bezic extremely snotty in general but with Surya she seemed to use a lot of code words like "muscular" and "athletic."

 

[barbk]

I never understood all the negative talk regarding her costumes and how she didn’t wear tights. That was apparently a cardinal sin.

This is going to sound ridiculous (because it is) -- but there was some real fascination back then with the notion that women didn't wear anything but tights under their skating costumes. And then you had a skater like Mira Leung who DID wear briefs under her skating outfit, and they showed, which caused another ruckus. It sounded like the tights took the place of underwear. I don't know how easy it would have been for Surya to find tights that matched her skin tone. Her legs were strong and muscular and looked great to me, but this was an era when there were still a lot of ladies wearing fur coats and carrying expensive handbags at skating events, so the country club set might have been upset.

I'm guessing Surya might have been very comfortable without tights given her background as a gymnast/tumbler.

Her costumes too often had flounces, but so did a lot of ladies costumes in that era. She looked awesome in bodysuits, but those weren't allowed in competitions.

 

[myhoneyhoney]

I remember Sandra Bezic being subtly racist in her commentary of Surya. I found Bezic extremely snotty in general but with Surya she seemed to use a lot of code words like "muscular" and "athletic."

You just reminded me of how Sandra and Scott used to describe Natalia Mishkutionok during the 1994 Olympics. Not very flattering. I always disagreed, Natalia is stunning. Seems like they were using code words for Natalia too. Pffftttt

 

[MacMadame]

The thing that bugged me the most about the coverage of Surya was saying she was "exotic" all the time. There really wasn't anything particularly exotic about her really. I think maybe her eye make-up might be classified that way. But that was about it. The skating costumes were pretty normal for the time, the way she spoke was pretty average. She was just an average nice kid who had big jumps. It really made no sense unless you were picking up on the dog whistles.

 

[canbelto]

You just reminded me of how Sandra and Scott used to describe Natalia Mishkutionok during the 1994 Olympics. Not very flattering. I always disagreed, Natalia is stunning. Seems like they were using code words for Natalia too. Pffftttt

I remember them. "Powerful." Always compared negatively to Katia Gordeeva, whom they considered to be the epitome of the pretty, feminine skater.

Oddly, I've seen photos of Natalia and today she is thinner, younger-looking, and prettier than Katia. Katia looks good too, but Natalia looks really ageless.

The "exotic" thing -- iirc Suzanne Bonaly contributed to that. Didn't she make up some story about how Surya was adopted and it turned out to be not true?

 

[skatingguy]

The "exotic" thing -- iirc Suzanne Bonaly contributed to that. Didn't she make up some story about how Surya was adopted and it turned out to be not true?

That was Didier - that's where the exotic descriptor came from.

 

[soogar]

I remember them. "Powerful." Always compared negatively to Katia Gordeeva, whom they considered to be the epitome of the pretty, feminine skater.

Oddly, I've seen photos of Natalia and today she is thinner, younger-looking, and prettier than Katia. Katia looks good too, but Natalia looks really ageless.

The "exotic" thing -- iirc Suzanne Bonaly contributed to that. Didn't she make up some story about how Surya was adopted and it turned out to be not true?

Suzanne Bonaly said Surya came from Reunion Island. Surya is definitely adopted though.

 

[UGG]

Pretty sure the reference was to the trauma of her training mate testing positive for drugs and the harsh spotlight it threw on them all, and the associated trauma of all of them training under a coach who's been mistreating them for years.

Yes. I can’t even believe anyone thought I was referring to trauma of a silver medal

 

[overedge]

She was an IJS skater before her time. What is sad is that if she hadn't been treated with racism and the judges had plainly said "you have wonderful performance ability and but we need you to work on your edges" she most likely would have and would have been greater still. Instead she got lost chasing "artistry" which she already had in spades.

I know some posters here are way more familiar with Surya's story than I am. But I thought it was her mom who dismissed the feedback about Surya needing better edges as the judges just not understanding the true brilliance of Surya's skating. I.e. she knew that she needed to improve her edges, but her mom thought they were just fine, and so nothing happened.

Re the tights issue, I also remember that after Surya got dissed for not wearing tights, she showed up at some competitions wearing light-coloured knee-high tights that she folded down over the tops of her boots. And then got dissed for her boots looking ugly. She really couldn't win.