USFS' Athlete Selection Procedures for 2022 Olympics

[LeafOnTheWind]

I put this in the men's thread but it bears repeating here because it's about everyone, not just the men. The Olympic Team Event really did change how US Figure skating looks at team selection. A coach is almost useless to their skaters if they fail to look at the pre-established selection criteria the season before an Olympic year. The last two rounds have proven that you need to know them inside and out. It doesn't matter whether we like it or not. They are going to be used.

And I do think that is overall good for the skaters. The criteria aren't perfect but everyone is on a more equal playing field in knowing how they will be reviewed. The smart ones will plan ahead.

 

[Carolla5501]

I just hope the alternates understand that there is probably the greatest chance ever there an alternate will be skating at the games. I know it’s hard to stay motivated over the next three or four weeks when you don’t know if you’re going to get to go but you always have injuries risk and now you have a pandemic on top of it.

 

[thvu]

Whatever the reasons, I woke up still pissed about the Mens selection. I didn’t expect I would care this much at all, but here I am.

 

[Andrea82]

Well, to avoid polemics, next time USFS should copy German, Hungarian, Finnish, etc criteria and go for mathematical sums of scores of Nationals and some selected competitions.
So we would all become masters of mathematics during the season. And at the end all the blame would fall on some Ukrainian judge with weird scoring at Golden Spin.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Back in 2014, Ade said that the USFS spoke to her and made it clear that they didn't trust Brown to help earn spots at Worlds, and she had to.reassure them that, of course she understood. I'm not sure they explicitly said "And no spots are on the line for the Olympics," but that was clear. So, no, Worlds wasn't a tossed bone them, and it's not now, especially to a skater who couldn't earn the.significantly higher senior minimums.

Malinin chose to skate juniors this year. It was a risk for several reasons, mainly because he took away his scoring ceiling with junior restrictions, and he underestimated the depth of US Men. That choice did not give him everything, but it gives him a great chance at a depleted post-Olympic Worlds.

Which age-eligible Russian woman made that choice? Aside from.Sotskova, they've gone headlong into senior competition the moment they are eligible.

 

[VGThuy]

I kind of wonder if we should just change the way spots for future Worlds and Olympics should be allocated. Or are most of us ok with it? I kind of think it'll be wise to at least EXPLORE other options and have a comment section on it where people can dissect the pros and cons and compare it to our current last year's worlds rankings system.

 

[becca]

Back in 2014, Ade said that the USFS spoke to her and made it clear that they didn't trust Brown to help earn spots at Worlds, and she had to.reassure them that, of course she understood. I'm not sure they explicitly said "And no spots are on the line for the Olympics," but that was clear. So, no, Worlds wasn't a tossed bone them, and it's not now, especially to a skater who couldn't earn the.significantly higher senior minimums.

Malinin chose to skate juniors this year. It was a risk for several reasons, mainly because he took away his scoring ceiling with junior restrictions, and he underestimated the depth of US Men. That choice did not give him everything, but it gives him a great chance at a depleted post-Olympic Worlds.

Which age-eligible Russian woman made that choice? Aside from.Sotskova, they've gone headlong into senior competition the moment they are eligible.

And their federation makes sure they have spots.

 

[Coco]

I have been a fan of the selection criteria, and I applaud usfsa for sticking with it. It would help so much, though, if there could be a little more transparency at how they rank skaters who are in the same selection group.

And I wonder if they will take a look at how a skater can lose their status in a group, because they may have wanted that as an option, but it's not an option under the rules.

 

[Vagabond]

Hawayek/Baker did almost lose their strong argument for an Olympic berth to Green/Parsons until H/B knocked it out of the park in the FD. Had they not and G/P managed third, I bet it would have been either an Ilia/Jason situation or G/P actually being named because of their GP scores being comparable to H/B’s during the Fall.

Green & Parsons would have been in Tier 3, and Hawayek & Baker would have been in Tier 4, so the former would have been selected.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And their federation makes sure they have spots.

Which they earn through a combination of international senior competition and internal test results.

 

[VGThuy]

I have been a fan of the selection criteria, and I applaud usfsa for sticking with it. It would help so much, though, if there could be a little more transparency at how they rank skaters who are in the same selection group.

And I wonder if they will take a look at how a skater can lose their status in a group, because they may have wanted that as an option, but it's not an option under the rules.

Yeah. It seemed once you pretty much had Group 2 wrapped up before Nationals, it was hard to lose it...unless you placed outside the top 5. Had it been Top 3, it would have been much easier to "lose" status but I guess you technically can't lose the group status if you haven't yet been assigned that group yet because it requires Nationals rankings....unless the group has an "OR" instead of an "AND" with national rankings...you know what I mean,

 

[VGThuy]

Green & Parsons would have been in Tier 3, and Hawayek & Baker would have been in Tier 4, so the former would have been selected.

Thank you for that. I didn't realize that being Tier 3 required a top 3 finish at Nationals.

 

[snoopysnake]

Worlds and 4cc announcement https://www.usfigureskating.org/new...ons-world-and-four-continents-teams-announced

 

[RoseRed]

Green & Parsons would have been in Tier 3, and Hawayek & Baker would have been in Tier 4, so the former would have been selected.

H/B would have been in Tier 3 even if they finished 4th, as unlike Gr/Pa their international median score met the top 10 criteria.

Thank you for that. I didn't realize that being Tier 3 required a top 3 finish at Nationals.

It didn't. It was top 3 at Nationals OR consistently top 10 international scores AND/OR a top 5 score.

 

[Karen-W]

Green & Parsons would have been in Tier 3, and Hawayek & Baker would have been in Tier 4, so the former would have been selected.

Hawayek/Baker were Group 3 based on their international scores. Green/Parsons were Group 4 and could only more into Group 3 with a Top 3 Nationals finish since the criteria says "Top 3 Nats finish AND/OR Worlds 10 Top International Scores" Had G/P won bronze then they both would have been in Group 3 and I suspect G/P would have gotten the spot, but once H/B were locked in as the only team in Group 3, it was a done deal for them.

Yeah. It seemed once you pretty much had Group 2 wrapped up before Nationals, it was hard to lose it...unless you placed outside the top 5. Had it been Top 3, it would have been much easier to "lose" status but I guess you technically can't lose the group status if you haven't yet been assigned that group yet because it requires Nationals rankings....unless the group has an "OR" instead of an "AND" with national rankings...you know what I mean,

I do think that there needs to be a higher bar for Nats placement for Group 2 - perhaps a Nationals Top 3 finish instead of Top 5.

My other issue is that the way the internal group "rankings" is written doesn't explicitly state which is the most valuable consideration for the USFS. Jackie Wong has been tweeting this notion that the bullet points are the USFS' pecking order. My counterpoint to that is that if that was a true highest to lowest list then it should be numbered rather than bulleted. It certainly didn't seem like the USFS had indicated to the NBC crew that one bullet point was more important than another based on the various graphics they were tossing up during different broadcasts - sometimes they were showing scoring trends graphs for each skater, other times they were tossing out best score, etc.

What this decision did was send a very clear message to any skaters who have a choice of staying junior internationally while competing senior domestically in 2026, that they are likely to be done in hard why the IC, and I don't think that is right or fair to them. There were very good reasons why Malinin and Thorngren were competing junior internationally, not the least of which was, I'm sure, because of private encouragement to do so by the USFS. They control those international assignments, so anyone who is saying "well, Ilia COULD have competed at Challengers and received the SkAm host spot" - really? Do you honestly think he would have been assigned Lombardia or ACI or Finlandia? Vincent was going to do Nebelhorn, that was always clear, so let's stop pretending Ilia could have shown up at Cranberry and beaten Vincent for that assignment. Sjoberg did nicely enough at Cranberry and US Classic and it took until November for him to get another assignment. As it was, Ilia was given the 1st and LAST JGP assignments, what with Asian Open, Denis Ten Memorial, and Nepela being canceled/impossible for US skaters to attend, it still would have been a tough fight to be assured any assignments, especially if the USFS was telling him they wanted him on the JGP.

 

[BittyBug]

Whatever the reasons, I woke up still pissed about the Mens selection. I didn’t expect I would care this much at all, but here I am.

Me too.

In the end, the coronation proceeded despite nationals results, with two team members not even needing to participate in the event to be named to the team. Maybe USFS would avoid controversy if they just named the team beforehand, since it's pretty clear that it was set long before Nashville. That way there wouldn't be any illusion or need to grossly inflate everyone scores and overlook URs and other errors.

 

[Cherub721]

Malinin chose to skate juniors this year. It was a risk for several reasons, mainly because he took away his scoring ceiling with junior restrictions, and he underestimated the depth of US Men. That choice did not give him everything, but it gives him a great chance at a depleted post-Olympic Worlds.

In the end, his choice was fine since he made Group 3, same as Brown. Once there they could choose either man.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If Malinin told USFS he wanted to go senior, and they said/implied/gave advice to him to remain in juniors and, whether explicitly or implicitly, let it be known they'd bury him if he didn't, then it's entirely on them. But it wouldn't have been because he then couldn't earn spots for Jr. Men at Jr. Worlds (if it is held), because as long as he is age-eligible, he could have done Olympics/Jr. Worlds/Worlds like Nam Nguyen did.

And, yes, I think that if Malinin wanted to skate in seniors, and USFS was, at worst, neutral about it, they would have given him at least one early good assignment that wouldn't have been in the middle of or close to JGP's, and then, if he did well, they would have sent him out to more. And he would have focused on one version of each program.

I just don't see where Brown has all of that power: he's not politically connected by coach or club. And while it's nice to have a back-up for the Team Event, there's no obligation to split any discipline, just a max of two splits. TV doesn't care about Men. And if they had appointed Malinin to the Olympics and Jr. Worlds and had given Brown Worlds, the reverse of 2014, or had assigned him to 4C's, from everything we've seen of him, he would have accepted graciously. I haven't seen a retirement announcement, but if he is wavering, he might have stayed even in another year after being passed for the Olympics, since, the last I read, Chen and Zhou are planning to be in school full time next year, with Chen expected not to compete, and with Zhou's first full-time school+skating experiment getting mixed results.

In the end, his choice was fine since he made Group 3, same as Brown. Once there they could choose either man.

And that worked out well for him re: OWG exactly how?

Had he chosen to go senior, and USFS wasn't blocking him, he might have placed himself firmly in Group 2, making Brown irrelevant.

 

[BittyBug]

Had he chosen to go senior, and USFS wasn't blocking him, he might have placed himself firmly in Group 2, making Brown irrelevant.

Maybe no one anticipated his extraordinarily rapid development? To completely overlook someone with his technical abilities is just incredibly stupid.

 

[jlai]

Maybe no one anticipated his extraordinarily rapid development? To completely overlook someone with his technical abilities is just incredibly stupid.

Rapid movement isn’t in the criteria, neither is potential. Usfs will get bitching whoever they pick. They went with the rule book, and the selection is fair by the rule book. In this case they can send one of the two in group 3.

It may not be the most strategic decision but I don’t think the committee was wrong by sticking with the rule book.

The national judging is another matter.

The criteria are so much clearer than 2018, and when the criteria were posted I don’t remember any wiz robbing. Until someone is gutted for Ilia. While I am gutted I also don’t think there is a decision where half of the folks aren’t angry

 

[thvu]

On their Insta show, Mirai Nagasu is saying she agrees with Brown for the Olympic Team. Polina is saying Malinin should have been selected. Their intensity and strong opinions matches much of what we're expressing here.

 

[VGThuy]

On their Insta show, Mirai Nagasu is saying she agrees with Brown for the Olympic Team. Polina is saying Malinin should have been selected. Their intensity and strong opinions matches much of what we're expressing here.

Mirai probably wouldn't have minded if 2014 played out the way 2022 Mens team selection did in terms of just going by the rankings, . Polina probably sees a lot of her own self with Malinin's placement upon reflecting back on 2014 and her own trajectory to those Nationals.

I do remember in 2018, Mirai was advocating heavily for Vincent to be placed on the team when we didn't know whether it was between him and Adam or him and Ross, so it's interesting to see her advocate for Jason now.

 

[PRlady]

Honestly, some of my work is basically evaluating arguments as to what works and what doesn't (not by formal debate criteria but public opinion.) On this one there really are good arguments on both sides, I can and have convinced myself both ways! This really isn't a slam-dunk case.

 

[BittyBug]

Until someone is gutted for Ilia.

I'm not gutted for Ilia, I'm gutted for our sport that suffers from such dismal leadership that they would fail to take advantage of Malinin's extraordinary technical ability to further promote the sport and ensure continued dominance once the current team retires, which is likely the end of this season.

I understand the rules, and think there was room for the committee to pick Malinin. I understand why they didn't, but I don't agree with the decision.

 

[On My Own]

Can someone tell me what the actual point of US Nationals was? Everyone was already selected before nationals happened? The three men, women, and pairs, at least, and I expect I'll find the same if I look at the ID results closely (the top 2 definitely didn't need to skate)? Why hold a superspreader event if it didn't even matter?

 

[PRlady]

Can someone tell me what the actual point of US Nationals was? Everyone was already selected before nationals happened? The three men, women, and pairs, at least, and I expect I'll find the same if I look at the ID results closely (the top 2 definitely didn't need to skate)? Why hold a superspreader event if it didn't even matter?

If the sick-outs hadn't been our best pair and lady (by our own criteria) and if the Men or Dance had gone really differently we would have needed Nats results.Not to mention that we really needed to see where our team is one month before the Olys.

 

[Wyliefan]

I do keep wondering where Vincent would have placed if his jumps had been called more strictly, as most of us observers thought they deserved to be. Who knows, the USFS might have spared itself all this .

 

[VGThuy]

I do keep wondering where Vincent would have placed if his jumps had been called more strictly, as most of us observers thought they deserved to be. Who knows, the USFS might have spared itself all this .

With the way Camden and Jimmy skated, he would have placed 4th and nothing would be different according to the selection criteria as he would still be in Group 2 ahead of Jason and Ilia. Even if he placed behind Camden (not sure how given the SP and the fact that Camden's two quads also should have been under review and had two pops on two of his jumping passes in the LP), Vincent would still be 5th and in Group 2.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I do keep wondering where Vincent would have placed if his jumps had been called more strictly, as most of us observers thought they deserved to be. Who knows, the USFS might have spared itself all this .

The problem with that is everyone needed to be called more strictly. Ilia didn't get away with as much as the others so his score is probably the closest to accurate.

 

[On My Own]

if the Men or Dance had gone really differently we would have needed Nats results.

I don't see this at all. Seeing how they left Zhou and Brown's calls off the protocols, it did suggest that they were already on the team, and nationals was simply justification as to why. ID judging is even more political and opaque.

Not to mention that we really needed to see where our team is one month before the Olys.

They could bubble up the predetermined team and have them skate, instead of making it an entire event with audience - increasing the risk of infection.