POV for Assessing Jump Rotation

[Theoreticalgirl]

The people have spoken, here's a new thread:

I'm sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here and maybe it's obvious to others, but what would folks consider the appropriate angle(s) to view a jump and assess rotation? Is it one perspective, or multiple? And if multiple, which ones (and how would you decide which one to use for an official decision)?

 

[kwanfan1818]

There's already technology that can measure rotations in real time without the use of cameras or the human eye. IMO, the ISU should invest in this technology for ISU competitions where they are forking up the prize money and for the Olympics and Olympic qualifier.

I don't buy the argument at all that every rule and technology should be tied to the lowest common denominator, ie, what any competition organizer can afford. They didn't install Cyclops or other measurement technology on every tennis court or refuse to use technology because every court didn't have it. Professional leagues and sports invest for the most elite and often the most visible competitions.

As for cameras, there are other uses besides under-rotations for them in skating: there have always been blind spots that the skaters and teams have exploited, and additional camera(s) in those areas, where the current cameras are lacking, would at least mitigate them.

 

[VGThuy]

Would the technology account for the prerotation that can happen and is considered "acceptable" to an extent on edge jumps, especially on the back end of a combo?

 

[gkelly]

Is the question "What is the best method to assess jump rotation and takeoff edges?"?

The best method might involve using additional technology that already exists or that could relatively easily be developed, that could be adopted at least for use at the most important high-stakes competitions. If it involves sensors on the skates, would they be something that could be attached and detached for each competition without affecting the skaters' technique? Or built into the skates such that skaters who compete in events that use these methods would need to invest in more expensive skates?

Additional camera angles for tech panel reviews would allow tech panels to reach their decisions with a higher degree of confidence with less dependence of the placement of each jump on the ice surface. This would not require developing any new technology, just figuring out some logistics about getting the feed to the tech panel, and some additional cost in terms of money and wait times for reviews. I'm sure these challenges could be solved for the high-stakes events.

Or is the question "What is the best viewing angle for assessing jump rotation and takeoff edges?"?

I.e., where should the tech panel and judges and the camera for the video review feed be placed to get the best angles of where skaters typically place their jumps? Or where should skaters place their jumps on the ice to give the best angles for jumps they're confident in and to give a less clear view for jumps they want there to be doubt they can get the benefit of?

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

@gkelly the question I asked was a matter of perspective. @kwanfan1818 is talking about technology. They two could be connected, or they can be considered separate things. Mostly just curious about other people's perspective, pun intended.

 

[wickedwitch]

I think it would be relatively simple to get better resolution and at least one additional camera angle for all the GPs and ISU championships. There's no real reason, given that the technology barrier is low, that they don't mandate this for next season. I think one additional angle is all that's really needed, but three total angles would be ideal. Then they could decide if the jump looks underrotated from 2/3 of the angles, it gets a <, but if only 1/3 it gets left alone. Any more would consume too much time.

I 100% support digital determination for rotation, but it would have to be calibrated really well before hand. I'm not sure how easy this will be and how much it would cost. If possible, I would expect something like this to happen no earlier than the post-2022 season

 

[gkelly]

For edge calls, I think it's clearest to see the edges if the skater is heading directly away from the viewer/camera (skater is facing the viewer and traveling backward), or directly toward the viewer/camera (back view). Side views are much more ambiguous.

And if the skater puts the jump right up against the boards on the same side of the ice as the viewer/camera but at the far end of the ice, it's impossible to get a good view. Which is where a second or third camera angle could come in most useful.

 

[DreamSkates]

Something needs to give, as the saying goes. The UR seem a bit much this year - or from commentators, very harsh.

 

[screech]

I like that they're getting called, but I wish prerotations (like Uno and Zhou's 4F) were getting called too.

 

[jiejie]

The prerotation question is a matter of what the ISU wants to allow. IMO the reason they don't want to do anything about it is that quite a number of coaches in a couple of key federations, teach this technique and implementing a prerotation penalty will penalize a lot of currently high-placed skaters. Purposely not naming names here, since this isn't my primary reason for contributing to this thread.

Primary reason is to suggest ways to improve the technology which should improve the quality and consistency of technical calls for rotation and edge. The ISU is strangely technology-resistant, and I'd be curious as to know why, since the cost of what might be necessary is no longer high.

The ISU currently uses a fixed-station, wired, single camera position for replays...and that is the weakest link in the tech chain. There is simply no single fixed position that can properly cover all jump placements in the rink. What I would propose is that the single fixed camera concept remain as the primary, then install 8 additional cameras (2 per side). This would give essentially full coverage of the ice surface from different angles. I'm not talking about the large broadcast cameras, I'm talking about very small wireless cameras that can be surface-mounted on a temporary basis on the inward facing sides of a rink. These can be placed on a temporary secure, dedicated wireless network within the rink, connected to a second, on-demand monitor that is at the Tech Panel's location. The primary monitor can link to the the single fixed camera.

When a jump is unclear as shown on the primary, the secondary monitor can be queued up for whichever of the 8 miniature cameras is relevant to that jump. In most cases, probably one additional camera, or two at most if the edge/rotation is really unclear, should suffice. With the Replay Operator punching the buttons, this would be very quick. It's not like every jump from every skater will be unclear.

The "kit" of cameras, monitors, wireless setups would be purchased by and remain the property of the ISU and under the control of the designated ISU Replay Official for the competition. Even if implemented for all ISU championships, Senior Grand Prix, and Challenger events, it wouldn't take that many kits since they would be quickly installed and tested during official practice sessions, and removed at end of competition, and there aren't that many simultaneous major competitions going on. The current cost of this technology is not expensive, and would assist honest Tech Panels in making good calls, and help thwart Tech Panels that have nefarious agendas.

 

[screech]

The prerotation question is a matter of what the ISU wants to allow. IMO the reason they don't want to do anything about it is that quite a number of coaches in a couple of key federations, teach this technique and implementing a prerotation penalty will penalize a lot of currently high-placed skaters.

Then why call out edge errors? A lot of coaches do nothing about that poor technique.
If they're not calling it as UR if a skater prerotates a jump by half a turn, then at the very least, that jump should absolutely not be receiving +4 GOE

I like your idea about having cameras around the rink that can be queued up for review.

 

[VGThuy]

This is probably not logistically possible but I wouldn’t mind if judges were scattered throughout the arena so they all have a different POV of a skater’s program and performance.

 

[manhn]

I LOVED the hawkeye in tennis. And when a player challenges the call, the crowd really gets into it. I would like to see a skater be able to challenge 1 jump (only 1). And then they can show the hawkeye on the jumbotron. It would be so much fun! I LOVE the Hawkeye!

 

[VGThuy]

I LOVED the hawkeye in tennis. And when a player challenges the call, the crowd really gets into it. I would like to see a skater be able to challenge 1 jump (only 1). And then they can show the hawkeye on the jumbotron. It would be so much fun! I LOVE the Hawkeye!

That sounds seriously interesting.

 

[MacMadame]

I bet you wouldn't even need 8 cameras because most jumps happen at the ends of the rink. So say 4 cameras. Very doable, IMO.

They should also use the tv feed for all ISU comps at a certain level and above. I.E., the GP, 4CCs, Euros & Worlds.

 

[mag]

I LOVED the hawkeye in tennis. And when a player challenges the call, the crowd really gets into it. I would like to see a skater be able to challenge 1 jump (only 1). And then they can show the hawkeye on the jumbotron. It would be so much fun! I LOVE the Hawkeye!

I think the video the tech panel uses to review a jump, in the speed used to review the jump, should be made available to the skater and coach after the competition with no strings attached. If the skater wants to upload the slow motion to their social media more power to them. In fact, why not make all the reviewed jumps available to fans? That way everyone would know which jumps were reviewed and what the tech panel saw?

 

[screech]

I bet you wouldn't even need 8 cameras because most jumps happen at the ends of the rink. So say 4 cameras. Very doable, IMO.

But there are skaters like Kaetlyn and Carolina who jump the opposite direction, and a lot of jumps like axels, loops and salchows end up being done in the middle section. I think 6-8 is a perfect amount. Each corner, and two along each of the longer lengths of the rectangle.

 

[Birdseye]

Does anyone know if they are utilizing high frame rate cameras? I was under the impression that hadn't happened yet. It would seem that using the proper camera technology could help with some of the call variation.

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ This was addressed in Zakrajsek's post-Skate America FB post that led to this separate thread being started: https://www.facebook.com/CoachTomZ/videos/vb.424453407653386/323866178417034/?type=3&theater
Relevant excerpt:

The ISU should also do this to relieve some of the burden placed on the technical panels which currently use low quality video equipment and only one camera angle. This current set up contributes to comparisons between technical panels being more strict vs. more lenient as Weir and Lipinski described on air during the ladies event.

The ISU council must take action to improve this current situation. (Note: This is not the first time these ideas have been suggested. They have been talked about for years.)

 

[Tahuu]

I like that they're getting called, but I wish prerotations (like Uno and Zhou's 4F) were getting called too.

Totally agree. In fact, you don't even need slo-mo to see Shoma prerotates as he doesn't pick backward but sideway, which means his already starts prerotate 1/4 turn at picking and then he does another 1/2 turn rotation on ice before getting into the air. Vincent seems to have corrected his sideway pick, which may have contributed to his URs now. If Shoma doesn't get punished on his sideway picking, Vincent probably should go back to it to avoid URs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYBrHVAW2I&t=

 

[DreamSkates]

Something needs to give, as the saying goes. The UR seem a bit much this year - or from commentators, very harsh.

Adding to what I wrote - after watching Skate Canada, and many slow motion replays, I can see that the quality, or fully-rotated, jump, is complete before the blade strikes the ice. Maybe the toepick hitting and calling an UR is harsh. ??? Just thinking about the issue...

 

[Zazy]

I like that they're getting called, but I wish prerotations (like Uno and Zhou's 4F) were getting called too.

Totally agree. In fact, you don't even need slo-mo to see Shoma prerotates as he doesn't pick backward but sideway, which means his already starts prerotate 1/4 turn at picking and then he does another 1/2 turn rotation on ice before getting into the air. Vincent seems to have corrected his sideway pick, which may have contributed to his URs now. If Shoma doesn't get punished on his sideway picking, Vincent probably should go back to it to avoid URs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYBrHVAW2I&t=

It's inherently unfair that jumps that are 1/4 turn underrotated can get a deduction but massively prerotated jumps get full credit and positive GOE. Like you say, there's a major incentive for skaters to prerotate jumps.

And it's all so arbitrary. Either let the judges evaluate the jumps with no input from a tech panel, or make an effort to address all types of incorrect jump technique. Tech panels have a limited amount of time/ressources and aren't going to catch everything but some of these prerotations are egregious and yet are ignored every time.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

What makes a 3-3 toe jump hard is the landing followed by an immediate vault to the second jump - nothing in between. The same is true for 3Lz3Lo - you land the lutz and go immediately into the second jump.

The rules of the 3Lo3S are not so clear. I think the same should apply here. You come down from the loop and vault immediately up into the S. Look at Ashley's in the 2016 worlds. It's done exactly that way. However many skaters embellish this. They come down from the loop there's a bit of a rest then both feet are on the ice for Salkow - a big round motion and then the lift. They are getting the same credit as a more difficult 3Lo3S. This to me is a sequence and should not get the same points as a true 3-3.

It's good to discuss this stuff. After the Oly's all the values and rules will be reviewed for the next cycle.

 

[skatingguy]

What makes a 3-3 toe jump hard is the landing followed by an immediate vault to the second jump - nothing in between. The same is true for 3Lz3Lo - you land the lutz and go immediately into the second jump.

The rules of the 3Lo3S are not so clear. I think the same should apply here. You come down from the loop and vault immediately up into the S. Look at Ashley's in the 2016 worlds. It's done exactly that way. However many skaters embellish this. They come down from the loop there's a bit of a rest then both feet are on the ice for Salkow - a big round motion and then the lift. They are getting the same credit as a more difficult 3Lo3S. This to me is a sequence and should not get the same points as a true 3-3.

It's good to discuss this stuff. After the Oly's all the values and rules will be reviewed for the next cycle.

Wagner did 3Lo+1Lo+3S at the 2016 World Championships not 3Lo+3S. Taking your time between jumps in a combo is not a reason to penalize the skater as long as the flow & speed are maintained between the jumps.

 

[tony]

What makes a 3-3 toe jump hard is the landing followed by an immediate vault to the second jump - nothing in between. The same is true for 3Lz3Lo - you land the lutz and go immediately into the second jump.

The rules of the 3Lo3S are not so clear. I think the same should apply here. You come down from the loop and vault immediately up into the S. Look at Ashley's in the 2016 worlds. It's done exactly that way. However many skaters embellish this. They come down from the loop there's a bit of a rest then both feet are on the ice for Salkow - a big round motion and then the lift. They are getting the same credit as a more difficult 3Lo3S. This to me is a sequence and should not get the same points as a true 3-3.

It's good to discuss this stuff. After the Oly's all the values and rules will be reviewed for the next cycle.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at other than the half loop (Euler) being a bit smoother In Ashley's case. There's still a connecting Euler in between the jumps as @skatingguy has explained just above me. I think you're trying to say that the Euler needs to be done in a certain kind of way and not the Chartrand or Pogorilaya way, if I have it correct.

Also, no offense, but Wagner's 3T on the end of her combos and her 3S on the end of an Euler was always pretty underrotated and therefore shouldn't get the same points as anyone doing a 3+3 true combo or a 3+Euler+3 combo clean anyways

 

[thvu]

A 4k camera at 120 frames per second should be the standard. There's no reason why they can't do this now other than not wanting to invest in the tech. I agree that there should be 4 angles to choose from for the tech panels. I don't know who the main vendor the ISU utilizes for GPs and Championships is, but there's no reason why they can't do this other than just wanting to coast and rest on their laurels.

I also agree with others that the technology to call edges and rotations using AI like tennis does with Hawkeye needs to be in the roadmap. Human beings are too subject to human error and bias (see the calling against Serena during the 2004 US Open and the ensuing outrage.) I love that today, tennis tournaments can be called completely using Hawkeye without the need for line judges.

 

[VGThuy]

The line judges sure brought the DRAMA though...as did the players responding to such judges.

 

[On My Own]

Taking your time between jumps in a combo is not a reason to penalize the skater as long as the flow & speed are maintained between the jumps.

Not so sure? Depends on the rhythm. Maybe I'm just not understanding the words you used. I think that's what @SkateFanBerlin is saying, that they like Wagner's rhythm. But I think no one has done a +1Lo+3S like Midori Ito.

 

[Coco]

Is there a legit way to assess the trajectory of the glide/steps into a jump and compare to the runout of a jump to discern whether or not it was underrotated?

At the 2017 (?) Worlds, iirc, Japanese TV was measuring entrance and exit speed of jumps as well as distance, and that was amazing.

It also seems little cheaper than sensors on the blades or boots.

Looking at all the ways a jump can be 'bad' I feel like the resulting penalties should be in a certain order. The focus on rotation seems a bit much.

 

[wickedwitch]

Is there a legit way to assess the trajectory of the glide/steps into a jump and compare to the runout of a jump to discern whether or not it was underrotated?

At the 2017 (?) Worlds, iirc, Japanese TV was measuring entrance and exit speed of jumps as well as distance, and that was amazing.

It also seems little cheaper than sensors on the blades or boots.

Looking at all the ways a jump can be 'bad' I feel like the resulting penalties should be in a certain order. The focus on rotation seems a bit much.

Japenese TV has better video quality than the ISU. Without decent quality and at least 2 angles, (which the TV stations have but the ISU does not), they aren't going to solve a damn thing.