U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Tavi]

No, neither his club comp nor qualifying series scores count. Do keep in mind, that 245 was at the junior level. We'll have a better idea of what his senior scoring potential, internationally this season, is after Cup of Austria.

Thanks for confirming and agreed about Austria. He strikes me as quite competitive so I’m sure he’s working his butt off right now.

Re the junior scores v senior: I know that’s true, but unless I'm mistaken, the selection document doesn’t address that - it’s just you make the benchmark or you don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone on the selection committee argued that junior scores should be given a bump to compensate, though.

 

[Karen-W]

Thanks for confirming and agreed about Austria. He strikes me as quite competitive so I’m sure he’s working his butt off right now.

Re the junior scores v senior: I know that’s true, but unless I'm mistaken, the selection document doesn’t address that - it’s just you make the benchmark or you don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone on the selection committee argued that junior scores should be given a bump to compensate, though.

All it says is that JGP and JGPF scores will be taken into consideration. It doesn't state how, which is the big unknown. My guess is that landing 4 quads in the FS five competitions in a row, if he does that (JGP Austria, Leesburg qualifier, Cup of Austria, JGPF, and Nats) plus 2 quads in the SP of his senior comps, is going to count for something in the eyes of the selection committee when discussing consistency.

 

[wickedwitch]

Right now, Jason is in Group 3 with a median score of 262. He’s hit the top 10 at Worlds benchmark at his last 3 competitions, and I guess I’d consider his scores to be stagnant (262, 262, 259) rather than trending down. If he scores lower in France he may be in trouble, but so far I think he’s still in an okay position. Although I hate watching him fall and screw up his FS and I wish he’d stop. ?

Since Ilia has just barely hit the top 10 benchmark once (245), he will either have to score at least that at his challenger and at the JGPF, or score over 272 once, to make it into Group 3. I don’t think his club competition or qualifying scores count.

Ilia can make group 3 by being top three at Nats.

 

[Karen-W]

Ilia can make group 3 by being top three at Nats.

Yes, or by scoring over 246 at both of his next 2 internationals.

 

[Tavi]

All it says is that JGP and JGPF scores will be taken into consideration. It doesn't state how, which is the big unknown. My guess is that landing 4 quads in the FS five competitions in a row, if he does that (JGP Austria, Leesburg qualifier, Cup of Austria, JGPF, and Nats) plus 2 quads in the SP of his senior comps, is going to count for something in the eyes of the selection committee when discussing consistency.

You may well be right. But I always come back to the bottom line of what all those quads actually mean in terms of placement and scoring.

For example, after winning 2017 junior worlds on the strength of his 3 quad FS (TSS 179+/TES 104+/PCS 74+) Vincent made his senior GP debut in China with a 2 quad SP / 5 quad FS. He skated poorly in the SP but much better in the FS (TSS 176+/ TES 102+/ PCS 75+/ 1 fall) and placed 4th with a total score of 256. Respectable but not awe inspiring. Two weeks later in France, he again attempted a lot of quads, skated poorly in the SP, somewhat better in the FS, and placed 9th with a total score of 222+.

I’m not saying the same thing will happen to Ilia. I am saying that the transition from junior to senior isn’t always smooth and that multi quad programs don’t always result in astronomical scores.

 

[her grace]

I will never understand the argument that it is better for a skater not to get to go to the Olympics. That makes no sense!

 

[mtnskater]

Just watched Ilia’s skates from Leesburg. Wow!! At 16 he is loaded with technical fire power. In addition to the four quads and solid triple axels, he also did a triple lutz/ triple loop and a triple lutz/triple toe at the end. And he didn’t seem winded. Quite something! But he is nowhere near Jason on the PCS, or spins and footwork. Seeing the two head to head will be really exciting.

 

[Tavi]

So I don’t usually post skating clips but this is the CBC commentary on Jason’s SCI SP. Of course it’s gorgeous and I hope you enjoy it, but practically the first thing they say is that Jason broke a bone in his foot and was off ice for two months this summer. He mentioned having had an injury in an interview after Finlandia, but this sounds more serious than he ever let on. No wonder his jumps haven’t been all there.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[Flowerz]

Ilia can make group 3 by being top three at Nats.

Ilia will probably be in group 3, but the USFS document clearly says they will put skaters in the same group in order of achievements or scores. The possibility is grater for Jason to be ranked higher in the particular group (3rd) than Ilia.
Ilia has a shot, but it will be very difficult for him to be above Jason. A 275 domestic score at almost your best won't do it.
That is if Jason's injury will heal completely in the next weeks, but even if it's not, at Nationals Jason is capable of defeating Ilia by a large margin of points even with all of Ilia's quads and Jason having an iffy quad.
Jason needs to bomb majorly in the rest of the season for Ilia to even have a chance IMO.
I'm sure they are doing everything in Toronto to keep Jason as healthy as possible and healed soon. It would not be the first time he overcomes serious injury and comes back to earn PBs and medals.
Worryingly, Jason even said they changed the layout of the 3F from the short to replace it with a 4S in the future. He's fine without that and I hope he's not pushing himself too much because very likely he will be on the team.

I've been closely observing Jason Brown for several years and he's not the skater he was four years ago. He demonstrated at Worlds 2021 that he has very strong nerves now and does well under pressure.
US already has two great skaters with high technical skills, they should be more than happy to give a spot to a skater who is a champion at PCS and the praise of almost everyone when it comes to skating skills and thus show they have such complete talent in their country. A skater who can well be top 6 at the Olympics and is often above their Russian "rivals" oftentimes on pure PCS and beautiful skating that the audiences love.
It just seems the most logical to me if Jason will get good scores the rest of the season.

 

[thvu]

It's not going to sit right with a lot of people if Zhou, who jeopardised the third Olympic spot, is seen as "safe" for the team, whereas Jason, who secured it, is seen as the one who doesn't deserve the spot. That's not going to sit right with a lot of people at all. And nor should it.

Do you remember what you were saying about how opinions are like a**holes?

 

[Karen-W]

Can we please get over this notion that Jason "secured" anything at Worlds last year? There is this illogical assertion that it was by his doing, solely and alone, that we had the opportunity to try for a 3rd spot which makes no sense because had he not been at Worlds then Vincent would have made the FS and who knows how well he would have skated. As messy as that Men's FS at Worlds was, he very easily could have pulled up to top 12 which, in conjunction with Nathan's 1st place finish would have also secured the USA the opportunity to try for that 3rd spot. Furthermore, Jason's finish alone was not enough to secure the US three spots. It was only good enough to give us 2 spots and we still would have needed to send someone else to Nebelhorn to secure that 2nd spot. It was a TEAM effort to earn three spots and Jason deserves credit for being a steady enough competitor and contributing to that success but it is not his accomplishment alone. Some might argue Nathan deserves more credit since his 1st place finishes at each of the last 3 Worlds have taken the brunt of stress off our other men to secure that 3rd spot.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

There is this illogical assertion that it was by his doing, solely and alone, that we had the opportunity to try for a 3rd spot which makes no sense because had he not been at Worlds then Vincent would have made the FS and who knows how well he would have skated.

Well not necessarily because it depends on the person that was in that vacant spot that was the 3rd US man. They still could have kept Vincent out but I understand your point and agree with the overall theme of it.

 

[Flowerz]

Jason deserves credit for being a steady enough competitor and contributing to that success but it is not his accomplishment alone. Some might argue Nathan deserves more credit since his 1st place finishes at each of the last 3 Worlds have taken the brunt of stress off our other men to secure that 3rd spot.

I don't think anyone is saying it's his accomplishment alone. He deserves all the credit for his part is what people are saying. So I don't get your frustration. It seems like you are so quick to point at Janson's vulnerabilities while being so quick to show every strength of anyone who could threaten his spot on the team (just the impression I get). I don't think anyone here is deluded into thinking Jason is guaranteed the spot nor are we unaware that he did not get the US spots alone.
And since we're here, Ilia Malinin has a chance. Slim, but a real chance. Something I can't say about Ma or Naumov for example. But no one is giving Jason more credit than he deserves. It's just a discussion based on actual potential based on real accomplishments that Jason had.

 

[canbelto]

Tbh with Jason Brown I sometimes wonder if Brian Orser was the best coach for him. I appreciate Brian pushing more jump content with Jason, but Brian tends to do better with skaters who already have their technique on lock. Hanyu, Yuna Kim, Javier Fernandez, etc.

 

[Flowerz]

Tbh with Jason Brown I sometimes wonder if Brian Orser was the best coach for him. I appreciate Brian pushing more jump content with Jason, but Brian tends to do better with skaters who already have their technique on lock. Hanyu, Yuna Kim, Javier Fernandez, etc.

Tracy Wilson is Jason's main coach. And Karen Preston is his jump coach. Orser has input on jumps and other aspects, but he's not his main coach.

 

[BittyBug]

The Cricket Club team did a good job improving Jason's jumps, including the 3A. Yes, Jason was inconsistent on that jump before but he improved tenfold after his move to TCC. He biffed it in the FS but that's likely because of his attempt at the 4S. (Johnny Weir, who had an incredibly reliable 3A, faltered on the jump when he was working on quads and eventually dropped his quad attempts because they messed with his timing on the axel.)

 

[wickedwitch]

The Cricket Club team did a good job improving Jason's jumps, including the 3A. Yes, Jason was inconsistent on that jump before but he improved tenfold after his move to TCC. He biffed it in the FS but that's likely because of his attempt at the 4S. (Johnny Weir, who had an incredibly reliable 3A, faltered on the jump when he was working on quads and eventually dropped his quad attempts because they messed with his timing on the axel.)

I could not disagree more. His 3A was the strongest in the fall of 2016. In fact, that's when all of his jumps were the strongest. It's hard to tell for sure because of injuries, but I genuinely don't see the improvement from when he was with Kori.

ETA; His 3As haven't looked good all fall. None of them have been great, even in the 3/4 porgrams when he wasn't attempting quads. But I attribute that to his injury.

 

[Tavi]

Can we please get over this notion that Jason "secured" anything at Worlds last year? There is this illogical assertion that it was by his doing, solely and alone, that we had the opportunity to try for a 3rd spot which makes no sense because had he not been at Worlds then Vincent would have made the FS and who knows how well he would have skated. As messy as that Men's FS at Worlds was, he very easily could have pulled up to top 12 which, in conjunction with Nathan's 1st place finish would have also secured the USA the opportunity to try for that 3rd spot. Furthermore, Jason's finish alone was not enough to secure the US three spots. It was only good enough to give us 2 spots and we still would have needed to send someone else to Nebelhorn to secure that 2nd spot. It was a TEAM effort to earn three spots and Jason deserves credit for being a steady enough competitor and contributing to that success but it is not his accomplishment alone. Some might argue Nathan deserves more credit since his 1st place finishes at each of the last 3 Worlds have taken the brunt of stress off our other men to secure that 3rd spot.

I agree it was a team effort to earn 3 spots. It took both Nathan and Jason to secure 2 spots outright for the Olympics, allow US the opportunity to earn a third Olympic spot, and secure 3 spots for Worlds next year. Regardless of the fact that Nathan won and has won in the past, neither he nor Jason alone could have done this. Nathan’s contribution was not more important than Jason’s, and vice versa. Obviously, Vincent’s contribution was also key, but without Nathan and Jason’s joint effort, he would not have had the opportunity to earn that spot.

IMO the fact that Vincent is a former World medalist and could have pulled up to top 12 on a different day is irrelevant - he didn’t. And while I am amazed by Nathan’s steely mind and highly appreciative of his competitive consistency, I don’t think it’s fair to say that because he’s won Worlds three times things are significantly easier for the rest of the team. Because going into each competition, you don’t know what will happen. See, eg, Nathan at Skate America 2021; see also Vincent at Worlds 2021. I doubt Jason went into Worlds 2021 thinking that it didn’t matter where he placed because Vincent and Nathan would both easily place top 10. I’m sure all three men went into that competition determined to do their best.

 

[BittyBug]

??‍ IMO his lutz is less of a flutz, his jumps have more ice coverage, and the 3A is more reliable.

 

[Flowerz]

I could not disagree more. His 3A was the strongest in the fall of 2016. In fact, that's when all of his jumps were the strongest. It's hard to tell for sure because of injuries, but I genuinely don't see the improvement from when he was with Kori.

Watch 2020 US Nationals and 2020 4CC. That was his peak since training at TCC and the jumps minus the quad looked really good. Now he still has an injury.

 

[misskarne]

So I don’t usually post skating clips but this is the CBC commentary on Jason’s SCI SP. Of course it’s gorgeous and I hope you enjoy it, but practically the first thing they say is that Jason broke a bone in his foot and was off ice for two months this summer. He mentioned having had an injury in an interview after Finlandia, but this sounds more serious than he ever let on. No wonder his jumps haven’t been all there.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

With due respect to the CBC commentators, that information does not align with anything Jason has said (Jason has acknowledged a "slight" injury that set him back a couple of "weeks", not months) and does not align with anything any reputable source has said, either.

 

[Tavi]

With due respect to the CBC commentators, that information does not align with anything Jason has said (Jason has acknowledged a "slight" injury that set him back a couple of "weeks", not months) and does not align with anything any reputable source has said, either.

I guess I’m assuming that a CBC sports commentator would not be listening to or repeating TSL gossip and would have heard the information directly from a reputable source. I’m also assuming that Kurt Browning or TCC would have questioned or called her out / corrected her or asked her to correct the facts if she misspoke. I could be wrong, but that was my assumption and why I posted it.

I don’t see the fact that Jason only acknowledged having a slight injury as necessarily meaningful. He strikes me as quite private, and I think a lot of skaters minimize injury. If you think about the back injury that forced him to withdraw from NHK (back in 2016?), the fracture in his landing foot that derailed him not too long after, and most recently, the concussion in 2019, he didn’t say much for a long time, and it was only gradually that details emerged.

Anyway, the important thing is that he’s looking better, and despite the unsuccessful quad attempt in the FS, Kurt Browning mentioned twice that the takeoff was beautiful. So fingers crossed that he’s well on the road to recovery.

 

[Doggygirl]

Tbh with Jason Brown I sometimes wonder if Brian Orser was the best coach for him. I appreciate Brian pushing more jump content with Jason, but Brian tends to do better with skaters who already have their technique on lock. Hanyu, Yuna Kim, Javier Fernandez, etc.

I was actually thinking about this during Skate Canada WRT Jason. I suppose the wild horses are already out of the barn. I do wonder what might have been.... (with a more technical jump technique oriented coach).

 

[Marco]

In any event, in a close contest, I don't think it matters that Jason partially helped contribute to the 3 spots for US men to compete at the Olympics. Just ask Max Aaron in 2014, and Ashley Wagner in 2018.

 

[Tavi]

In any event, in a close contest, I don't think it matters that Jason partially helped contribute to the 3 spots for US men to compete at the Olympics. Just ask Max Aaron in 2014, and Ashley Wagner in 2018.

Or just ask Jason in 2018. He knows all too well.

 

[Marco]

Or just ask Jason in 2018. He knows all too well.

Oh right!

 

[olympic]

I think Jason's jumps are tighter and stronger since going to the Cricket Club ...

 

[euterpe]

I doubt Ilia Malinin will be on the Olympic team, but I could see him going to 4CC, and possibly even Worlds (should any of the Olympians decide to skip Worlds). Sending Ilia to a Challenger event was surely aimed at getting him the TES minimums for a senior Championship event.

 

[olympic]

I doubt Ilia Malinin will be on the Olympic team, but I could see him going to 4CC, and possibly even Worlds (should any of the Olympians decide to skip Worlds). Sending Ilia to a Challenger event was surely aimed at getting him the TES minimums for a senior Championship event.

Wouldn't going to JR. Worlds be a bigger benefit? The Sr. Worlds idea is a good one IF someone skips ..

 

[Karen-W]

Wouldn't going to JR. Worlds be a bigger benefit? The Sr. Worlds idea is a good one IF someone skips ..

I think the 4CC points are higher than the Jr Worlds points for ranking next season. But, having said that, there is no reason he can't do both. Jr Worlds is the 2nd week of March - 6 weeks after 4CCs.