2021/2022 Canadian Pairs: News and Updates

[Panja]

I only know that W/M really want to fight for the spot:https://lfpress.com/sports/local-sp...nt-michaud-face-fight-for-olympic-pairs-berth .

 

[danafan]

Thanks for the link @Panja
The article indicates Walsh had a chest infection which is why they missed the Autumn Classic. A shame they couldn't get an international assignment in before the grand prix. I hope they do well.

 

[karmena]

I'm really curious how Walsh and Michaud will look this season. Am I the only one who hopes the Olympic team is James/Radford and Walsh/Michaud?

No, you are not the only one. I am sure, that Olympic team will be J/R and W/T, but nothing is written on the wall. Though I wish M-T/M all the success, too and from the bottom of my heart. It would be such treat to see all pairs to skate to their potential.

Kirsten of course is a star but in order to shine

 

[Karen-W]

A bit of perspective is called for today...

M-T/M weren't clean. Had they been clean, they would have been a lot closer to J/R, possibly even beat them in the SP. As it is, points wise, they are closer to 3rd than J/R are to 2nd. Let's see how things go tomorrow before giving J/R a spot on the Canadian Olympic team.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I’m reposting this from the Finlandia thread ....

I have to say I thought KMT and marinara sauce were really good in their short program. They skate with so much speed and their side-by-side spins we’re clocking 100 miles an hour. I like the program

 

[Rock2]

A bit of perspective is called for today...

M-T/M weren't clean. Had they been clean, they would have been a lot closer to J/R, possibly even beat them in the SP. As it is, points wise, they are closer to 3rd than J/R are to 2nd. Let's see how things go tomorrow before giving J/R a spot on the Canadian Olympic team.

Some additional perspective today....

MT/M's skating has been trending worse over the last few years. Twist is regressing from an already-weak place and they are having a harder time getting levels. Coming up to 8 years together - you should be doing level 3,4 spins, death spiral, lifts and footwork. Every time out. Even in middle of summer. 61 pts with only one glaring error is frightening - picking right up where they left off with their short at World's.

W/M OTOH have been improving. Word is they looked most prepared at Skate Canada camp.

Very clear 3 way race for the 2 Beijing spots. Body of work conversations for the 2 Olympic spots start with this event (altough yes, World's final placing last year will get some consideration but a podium finish matters much much more). MT/M need to get it together to take some of the guesswork out of it in January.

 

[Colonel Green]

Coming up to 8 years together - you should be doing level 3,4 spins, death spiral, lifts and footwork. Every time out. Even in middle of summer.

I don't think that's true, especially after the post-2018 scoring changes, for things like the death spiral and footwork. Heck, you hardly see level 4 death spirals now at all.

 

[Karen-W]

Some additional perspective today....

MT/M's skating has been trending worse over the last few years. Twist is regressing from an already-weak place and they are having a harder time getting levels. Coming up to 8 years together - you should be doing level 3,4 spins, death spiral, lifts and footwork. Every time out. Even in middle of summer. 61 pts with only one glaring error is frightening - picking right up where they left off with their short at World's.

W/M OTOH have been improving. Word is they looked most prepared at Skate Canada camp.

Very clear 3 way race for the 2 Beijing spots. Body of work conversations for the 2 Olympic spots start with this event (altough yes, World's final placing last year will get some consideration but a podium finish matters much much more). MT/M need to get it together to take some of the guesswork out of it in January.

I don't disagree at all. MT/M are far from my favorite team and they certainly aren't helping themselves with their obvious weaknesses in both the twist and lifts.

But, I'm also pretty appalled at the clear push that J/R are getting, which they really don't merit. Yes, they were much improved from ACI but that program is just bad and I give a major side-eye to the PCS they received yesterday.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out between the three teams, for sure.

 

[Vase]

I don’t know, I can’t say I have a favourite of the three teams. Both MTM and WM have been skating with the same elements and yes I see improvements on speed or fluency, but I always expect more.
JR are not giving me anything to say ‘wow’ I think they are being over scored.
I’d like to see some of the younger teams competing against them to see how much they’ll push the bar.

 

[Colonel Green]

I’d like to see some of the younger teams competing against them to see how much they’ll push the bar.

None of our younger teams (assuming you're talking outside of the top three) are anywhere close to being able to compete against them.

 

[Rock2]

I don't think that's true, especially after the post-2018 scoring changes, for things like the death spiral and footwork. Heck, you hardly see level 4 death spirals now at all.

Then level 3 as I mentioned. If you can't consistently get level 3 on elements that's all good and fine - skaters can continue to set their own goals and we can continue to excuse or rationalize unimpressive skating that doesn't really stand up to an Olympic standard that will threaten the podium.

World's long from last year: top 4 longs, ALL level 4 elements, including twist, lift, spings, death spiral, literally every element, except one level 3 death spiral. That's the standard. 23 out of 24 elements that are assigned levels.

And then 5th was MT/M. 2/6 elements level 4.

And the Russians and Chinese don't REALLY ramp up their training until the Olympic season.

Finlandia long: level 4s out of 6 elements with levels:

RUS 1: 6
RUS 2: 6
USA 1: 5
USA 2: 4
MT/M: 1

Just so much catching up to do and arguably regressing as they enter the Olympic season. And they are running out of time to look as ready as their competition or we're left praying for a miracle at Nationals/Olympics. Not ideal.

 

[angi]

To be fair MT/M are injured. That being said lifts are their Achilles heel and they often end up with level 3 lifts. I still think the way they were judges at this event was too harshly for what they produced.
I saw someone mention their elements layout being wrong for them and agree with that, they are backloading their FS and it costs them levels and GOE.
I assume this will either be a wake-up call for them or it will get them into a bad headspace. J/R shouldn't be a real threat for them, especially in the FS where J/R just don't have the millage or stamina to perform a successful one from how it looks.

 

[Vase]

None of our younger teams (assuming you're talking outside of the top three) are anywhere close to being able to compete against them.

I’d still like to see them in competition a few times together. Nationals will no doubt be their last opportunity to see them in the mix, assuming we’ll see some retirements or splits. I doubt the 3 top seniors will compete at challenge, so I guess we’ll wait for nationals.
But whatever will be will be, I just hope to see healthy and not injured pair teams. It seems that’s a lot to ask for.

 

[RoseRed]

The twist seems worse than it used to be to me. Both here were super low, not clean catches, level 1 with negative GOE. It was never their strength, but they were often able to get level 2-3 and positive GOE on it in the past.

Worlds 2021: Level 1 (+GOE) for the FS, Level 1 (0 GOE) for the SP

2019-20 season (all + GOE)
Level 4 x1 (Nebelhorn SP)
Level 3 x7 (Nebelhorn FS, SC SP/FS, GPF SP/FS, 4CCs SP/FS)
Level 2 x2 (NHK SP/FS)

I know they'd improved it for that season, and lost those improvements with the time off and Kirsten's injury, but even before that it was better than here.

2018-19 season (+GOE unless noted)
Level 4 x 2 (SC SP (0 GOE)/ FS (-0.17))
Level 3 x (Finlandia SP/ FS (-0.76), NHK FS (0 GOE), 4CC SP/FS)
Level 2 x (ACI FS (-0.22), NHK SP, Worlds SP, WTT SP/FS)
Level 1 x (ACI SP (-0.1), Worlds FS)

At this event, they had level 1 with -0.68 and -1.28, which are their two worst scoring twists on Skating Scores.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

MT/M's skating has been trending worse over the last few years. Twist is regressing from an already-weak place and they are having

Yesterday when I watched the short program I kind of gasped when she was in the air for her twist because I did not think she was high enough and I was expecting something to happen. I’m glad that it did not.

I’ve only looked at the free scores so far today I’ve had to work this morning so I haven’t seen any performances yet and I see they got a bad score again on the twist.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

As I mentioned I haven’t seen any performances yet but judging seems so whack a doodle. I’m looking quickly at Vanessa and Eric scores and some elements they have like -5 and then +1 or like -5 and other judges in the positive. There can’t be that big of differences of opinions between judges. They all need to be fired and rehired by people I approve of

 

[Rock2]

Yesterday when I watched the short program I kind of gasped when she was in the air for her twist because I did not think she was high enough and I was expecting something to happen. I’m glad that it did not.

I don't know if it's nerves or what, but the takeoff in both the short and long looks completely mis-timed. Before Mike even lets go of her it looks awkward. Could be nerves bc the take off of the throw in the short looked off as do the entraces of their lifts in both programs. Pressures of Olympic season and a tougher path to Beijing than expected might be getting in their heads already.

If I'm W/M I'm soooooo licking my lips. Let Thomas and Witt obsess over each other while you enter the chat and 'Manley' your way to stealing the show.

 

[barbarafan]

To be fair MT/M are injured. That being said lifts are their Achilles heel and they often end up with level 3 lifts. I still think the way they were judges at this event was too harshly for what they produced.
I saw someone mention their elements layout being wrong for them and agree with that, they are backloading their FS and it costs them levels and GOE.
I assume this will either be a wake-up call for them or it will get them into a bad headspace. J/R shouldn't be a real threat for them, especially in the FS where J/R just don't have the millage or stamina to perform a successful one from how it looks.

how are MT/M2 injured

 

[angi]

how are MT/M2 injured

He's been having back issues all summer and that affected their training and showings at HPC, and there are other issues rumored but nothing concrete yet.

 

[euterpe]

It's NOT good that MTM/M fell behind the two US teams, considering that they are US-2 and -3.

 

[Rock2]

He's been having back issues all summer and that affected their training and showings at HPC, and there are other issues rumored but nothing concrete yet.

On the first ep of his podcast with Trennt he talked about his focus over the summer was weight lifting to get bigger (I assume to improve twist and lifts) so maybe that went south.

 

[honey]

It feels a bit like time is running out for MT/M. It seems very likely that there has been some kind of injury to one or both of them. I know they mentioned a rib issue last year for her and I wouldn't be surprised if this is still lingering and causing the twist problems. The twist has never been good, but it's not usually this bad. Their timing just looked all off at this event. The twist, the throws, everything. If he's had a back injury on top of that, well, not hard to see why they look like they do.

But beyond the element issues they had here, I think they've done themselves a complete disservice with these two programs. I actually like Carry You and think it's a good vehicle for them. However, when you've been skating to similarly themed free program for the better part of 6 years now, it was a mistake to bring this back. And then to combine it with a completely non-descript snoozy short program? That was a miss on their part. It's probably too late in the game to do something about both programs, but I think they really need to ditch the short. Something with a bit of energy to contrast the long would be ideal. Heck, I'd even settle for that jazz cover of Sweet Dreams that they did in 2018. At least that had a distinct feel to it.

It will be interesting to see where the top 3 Canadians pairs go this season. I had thought we'd see a clear pecking order, but right now, it all feels a bit underwhelming and the two teams we've seen have underperformed. W/M have a real opportunity here to get some momentum and put themselves on equal footing with the other two teams going into nationals.

 

[barbk]

It's NOT good that MTM/M fell behind the two US teams, considering that they are US-2 and -3.

US 1, 2, and 3 are a crapshoot as to which team will be in which slot on any given day. None are known for consistency.

 

[Karen-W]

US 1, 2, and 3 are a crapshoot as to which team will be in which slot on any given day. None are known for consistency.

Yes, and, a few years ago, M-T/M were at least consistently beating them at Worlds and 4CCs. 2019 4CCs they beat C-G/L by 15 points; 2019 Worlds they beat C-G/L by 7 points; 2020 4CCs they beat C/J by 5.5 points; 2019; 2021 Worlds they beat C-G/L by 10 points. And they only beat K/F by 3 points in Stockholm. Today was almost a complete reversal of the points average they usually have over C-G/L and C/J. Yes, it's early in the season but it's not boding well for their prospects, whatever the reason for their lower points. And, it's not as though C-G/L or C/J scored enough points today to have placed ahead of them at Worlds last spring. M-T/M were well off their 195 from Stockholm. Now, who knows what they will look like in 3 weeks. Goodness knows that a tremendous difference 3 weeks made in how both C-G/L and J/R looked - because most folks in both this thread and the US Pairs thread were giving both of those teams the major side-eye after ACI.

 

[SidelineSkater]

Upthread someone mentioned the FS layout isn’t doing MT/M any favors. I’m not sure if the element layout is exactly the same, but I feel like the solo jump has been later in the program for many of their programs.

They’ve also had a series of unfortunate falls - fluke falls for him or coming out of a throw. She’s had falls on jumps. It’s tough. I think their performance ability is a bit higher than W/M, but I find myself wanting better packaging and performance from the latter - which will come with time.

Hopefully Both teams can recover from their injuries and have a string remainder of the season.

I do feel like the top three US and Canadian teams are fairly close in scoring potential.

 

[RoseRed]

It feels a bit like time is running out for MT/M. It seems very likely that there has been some kind of injury to one or both of them. I know they mentioned a rib issue last year for her and I wouldn't be surprised if this is still lingering and causing the twist problems. The twist has never been good, but it's not usually this bad. Their timing just looked all off at this event. The twist, the throws, everything. If he's had a back injury on top of that, well, not hard to see why they look like they do.

But beyond the element issues they had here, I think they've done themselves a complete disservice with these two programs. I actually like Carry You and think it's a good vehicle for them. However, when you've been skating to similarly themed free program for the better part of 6 years now, it was a mistake to bring this back. And then to combine it with a completely non-descript snoozy short program? That was a miss on their part. It's probably too late in the game to do something about both programs, but I think they really need to ditch the short. Something with a bit of energy to contrast the long would be ideal. Heck, I'd even settle for that jazz cover of Sweet Dreams that they did in 2018. At least that had a distinct feel to it.

It will be interesting to see where the top 3 Canadians pairs go this season. I had thought we'd see a clear pecking order, but right now, it all feels a bit underwhelming and the two teams we've seen have underperformed. W/M have a real opportunity here to get some momentum and put themselves on equal footing with the other two teams going into nationals.

I think it would have been fine if they'd chosen a SP with more contrast. If you're going to repeat a FS (which is already not a new style for you), then choosing a SP in a very similar style (but less interesting imo) isn't a great move. When they did this FS last time, it was paired with Love on the Brain, which is style in kind of the same vein as a love song, but musically more distinct.

 

[tony]

I've said for years that I wish KMT would be given programs that really suit her biggest strength which, IMO, is powerful and not 'pretty'. Her free skate with Moscovitch to Henry V (which seems like an eternity ago) was so dynamic and exciting, for example. Since she's been with Marinaro, it's been a bunch of schmaltzy and soft stuff, and his skating doesn't resemble anything close to graceful. She's one of the few pair skaters who has the capability of being really effortlessly intense -- cater to it!

It's unfortunate that everything has gone south since CV struck. They were building nicely but injury or not, the last year has been really underwhelming all-around for them.

 

[karmena]

In MHO, KMT- M are mismatched as a pair to begin with. They has reached their ceilings ( a long time ago), there is no where to go.
You mentioned Henry V skated by Kirsten and Dylan. The magic was there not because of Kirsten but because of them both; because of the magic of the pair.
Kudos to KMT and especially to Marinaro for trying their very best, hopefully there will be some nice moments for them.

Also... Kirsten seems to me to be too much overwhelmed by the scores/result now... even before she starts performing... too rational mind set is not of a great help. Joy of skating and spark of life....is what makes even the worst skated program still enjoyable to watch. But Kirsten knows this much better than I do.

 

[barbarafan]

On the first ep of his podcast with Trennt he talked about his focus over the summer was weight lifting to get bigger (I assume to improve twist and lifts) so maybe that went south.

If KMT has not done a lot more with her soggy pelvis on lifts and throws he would have to get to circus strongman or a wheelchair to fix their lifts and throws. She seemed somewhat better training with Brian Shales but who knows. You can only tighten your core muscles by working on them.

 

[clairecloutier]

If KMT has not done a lot more with her soggy pelvis on lifts and throws he would have to get to circus strongman or a wheelchair to fix their lifts and throws. She seemed somewhat better training with Brian Shales but who knows. You can only tighten your core muscles by working on them.

I think this thread has officially gone off the rails ....