Just call me Harry. (Everything Harry & Meghan)

[puglover]

I am certainly no royal expert but I think most people have had sympathy for Harry dating back to that painful walk behind his mother's coffin and have felt some understanding about his issues with what birth and his station in life have meant and his wanting a different life for his wife and children. Maybe the royal family could have done more to support Harry and Meghan but I personally thought the very public way Prince Charles stepped in to walk with Meghan at their wedding gave a clear signal "she is one of us". In the beginning, we saw numerous photos of the Queen smiling and joking with Meghan and some saw her as a real breath of fresh air - set to modernize the stodgy British monarchy. Harry blames the out of control media for his mother's death and reacted viscerally to the very hurtful comments aimed at his wife, understandably.. I suspect William was correct in his questioning whether Meghan really knew what she was getting herself into and his counsel for Harry to take it slow seems to have caused at least some of this rift. Somewhat surprising he did not also have concern as it seems the English girls Harry dated, who one would presume had a much clearer take on what it would mean to marry him, had major issues with the role. Kate had one of the longest job interviews, if you will, in history. Harry sounded quite defensive in his interview with J.C. about "stepping away" or words to that affect, which is clearly what he did, so own it. Probably they assumed they could be "part-time royals" and keep the things they enjoyed and found rewarding and that option has been shut down.

I hope they do change the narrative. The media, even the more ethical ones, know that controversy sells and sadly the public has a taste for dirty details. Now many of the pictures we see, obviously old ones, show what appear to be disapproving looks aimed at them from members of the family. Harry and Meghan should get off that train, shut it down as best they can, they have explained themselves, now move on.

 

[skategal]

what could they possibly know of what working people experience of the world?

Meghan was a hard-working black woman raised by a single mother before she met Harry.

Good chance she hasn't forgotten what that is like just because she is now married to Prince Harry.

 

[MsZem]

Meghan was a hard-working black woman raised by a single mother before she met Harry.

Good chance she hasn't forgotten what that is like just because she is now married to Prince Harry.

Neither Meghan nor her mother were working class. And while Doria divorced when Meghan was still young, she did not raise Meghan on her own.

So no, Meghan does not have the same experiences as those whose life is a daily struggle. But I don't think you need to have lived the same lives as others to have empathy and compassion for them, and it's certainly possible to use one's power and privilege to advocate for others.

 

[mjb52]

Omg she taught bookbinding what. (I just looked her up to see if my memory that she went to a fairly exclusive high school was correct). That's amazing. I am a hardcore Meghan stan now.

 

[skategal]

Neither Meghan nor her mother were working class.

Doria was a makeup artist, a travel agent and a small business owner who filed for bankruptcy in the mid-2000s.

She finally got her degree in Social Work, in 2011 once Meghan was grown and on her own, and passed the licensing exam in 2015.

Doria raised herself up to be not working class (maybe with Meghan's help) but she was certainly in that class for awhile.

I don't think Meghan grew up with many extras financially.

 

[starrynight]

Meghan is now a major beneficiary of the riches of systemic social inequality due to birthright privilege.

She just married Harry who got all of this money and privilege by accident of birth due to an aristocratic class system.

Neither of them earned any of this by their own labour or talents.

 

[skategal]

Meghan is now a major beneficiary of the riches of systemic social inequality due to birthright privilege.

She just married Harry who got all of this money and privilege by accident of birth due to an aristocratic class system.

No one is disputing that?

I was responding to a post saying that she couldn't possibly understand hard-working people and what they go through.

All I am saying is that she didn't get amnesia when she got married.

 

[Vagabond]

It's whiplash to me how such a pair whose whole platform is built on the riches of entrenched social inequality and hereditary birthright are somehow appealing to a target audience who should in theory reject everything they represent.

Meghan doesn't come from an especially privileged background, and she had her own career before she met Harry. Harry, on the other hand....

 

[starrynight]

lol anyway that's enough oxygen for me on this topic. I think everyone knows where I stand on it ha ha ha

 

[MsZem]

Doria was a makeup artist, a travel agent and a small business owner who filed for bankruptcy in the mid-2000s.

She finally got her degree in Social Work, in 2011 once Meghan was grown and on her own, and passed the licensing exam in 2015.

Doria raised herself up to be not working class (maybe with Meghan's help) but she was certainly in that class for awhile.

I don't think Meghan grew up with many extras financially.

Yes, I too checked Wikipedia before posting. That's not a working class background, and Thomas Markle had regular TV work when Meghan was growing up. She attended private school and got to travel thanks to her mother's job - sounds pretty extra to me. By the mid-2000s, Meghan had a degree from Northwestern and was starting to get work as an actress, so her mother filing for bankruptcy is not really relevant. People face bankruptcy for many reasons.

Few people are going to come close to Harry when it comes to privilege, but Meghan's background seems pretty middle class to me. One can be impressed with her accomplishments without a "by the bootstraps" narrative to accompany them.

 

[skategal]

Few people are going to come close to Harry when it comes to privilege, but Meghan's background seems pretty middle class to me. One can be impressed with her accomplishments without a "by the bootstraps" narrative to accompany them.

I am impressed with her.

As I keep saying, I am disputing that notion in this thread that she can't possibly know the challenges of working people when she has worked quite hard herself, is self-made and had at best a middle class upbringing. Not to mention she has faced racism herself as a woman of color.

I actually find it quite perplexing that people think Diana, who arguably has more aristocratic lineage and status than the BRF, is the bastion of the working class but Meghan "can't possibly know struggle" when she is by far the lowest class person to marry a British Royal and is a person of colour that faces racism everyday of her life.

 

[MsZem]

I actually find it quite perplexing that people think Diana, who arguably has more aristocratic lineage and status than the BRF, is the bastion of the working class but Meghan "can't possibly know struggle" when she is by far the lowest class person to marry a British Royal and is a person of colour that faces racism everyday of her life.

That's ridiculous for sure. I don't know that Meghan is "by far" the lowest class person to marry into the BRF - Kate is upper middle class, but her parents did not come from posh backgrounds, and Mike Tindall and Autumn Phillips seem to have been pretty middle class. But Diana was by no stretch of the imagination middle class.

Anyway, Meghan may not know certain challenges from personal experience, but that doesn't mean she can't empathize and help. To use a different example: Amal Clooney didn't grow up the target of human rights abuses, and that hasn't stopped her from empathizing with and advocating for people who have been through the very worst humanity has to offer.

 

[skategal]

That's ridiculous for sure. I don't know that Meghan is "by far" the lowest class person to marry into the BRF - Kate is upper middle class, but her parents did not come from posh backgrounds, and Mike Tindall and Autumn Phillips seem to have been pretty middle class.

Is upper middle class is considered multi-millionaires?

I don't consider it that way but North American viewpoints can be different as we don't have the same notion of class based on aristocracy.

Kate's parents were not aristocracy but in North America they would be considered upper class based on their incomes.

Autumn Phillips grew up in Canada on the West Island of Montreal (one of the most prestigious addresses in Canada), had an executive as a father and attended the best university in Canada which most of the elite attend. She would be considered upper class here.

Mike Tindall would be middle class.

My point still stands that Meghan has had the least privilege growing up of all the spouses in the Royal Family being at best middle class and also a woman of color.

 

[Lemonade20]

I wish they had a longer engagement to be honest. Kate had I think 8 years to prepare and that's why she transitioned into the Royal family so well. She is also British and knew there were certain expectations.
Meghan on the other hand is American (don't you dare bring up her race). She had no idea what she was getting involved with. She wanted to be the next Diana, loved by everyone (hence all the charity work). But she couldn't control the narrative and worse had very little say in the Royal family. She has always been her own person so being told what to do must have been too much for her.
When they vacationed in Canada, I thought, wow, they are doing something great. Taking a break from all of this is just what they needed. Then came the LA move and Netflix deals. Just tells me Meghan is the one driving the boat. I don't think Harry would have chosen Hollywood or remained in the public eye like this.

 

[clairecloutier]

This thread is getting ugly again & some of the posts in here are .

The fact that someone actually used the term “pussy-whipped” pretty much says it all.

 

[MsZem]

Autumn Phillips grew up in Canada on the West Island of Montreal (one of the most prestigious addresses in Canada), had an executive as a father and attended the best university in Canada which most of the elite attend. She would be considered upper class here.

Alas, I have never been to Montreal. As for the Middletons, there was some inherited wealth there, but also a lot of work that went into their business. At what point they become multi-millionaires, I've no idea.

I am not sure what Sophie Wessex was doing growing up, but she had her own career, too.

To reiterate: I don't think Meghan experienced the kind of hardship some people have. She did not grow up with the sort of privilege Harry did, but she is privileged now. And all this is no barrier for her to successfully advocate for others. So I guess I'll leave it at that.

 

[mjb52]

I feel like people are making some reductionist assumptions about Meghan. She can at the same time have experienced racism based on her identity and have a somewhat ambiguous economic status in terms of how she grew-up and at the same time have some degree of privilege associated with having a father who was an insider in a highly desirable industry and having gone to prestigious educational institutions.

 

[taf2002]

Ok, a better example than LeBron is all the influencers who have been made fabulously wealthy thru social media. Or the models who trade on their faces & figures like Kylie Jenner. Do these people do any good for others? Do they make our world a better place? H & M are not nearly as wealthy as Kylie but I think that if thru their charity work they also get some gratification for themselves, who are they hurting? And why so much venom thrown at them?

James Cordon's program showed me a little bit of what Harry is like & I saw a gracious, down to earth person with a good sense of humor - definitely someone I think I would like.

 

[skategal]

Alas, I have never been to Montreal.

Yeah understandable that her wealth wouldn't have come through in her bio unless you knew to read between the lines.

The racial struggle for non-white people in North America is very real.

It doesn't matter how much money you have. You experience it.

Meghan experienced that struggle (and still does to some extent).

It's changing but not fast enough.

 

[canbelto]

Excuse me? What on God's green earth does her race have to do with her Hollywood-style "philanthropic" efforts? There is no "micro-aggression" here, so you can just move that little narrative right along to the trash bin.

Meghan was very adept, before she married Harry, at building her own brand and promoting herself. I honestly think they both had an expectation, when they got married, that they would be able to build their own "Royal brand" through their Commonwealth work and they would be on equal footing with William & Kate which, unfortunately, is not how a monarchy, and especially not the BRF, works. I also think they feed off each other's narcissism and ego. So, they both had their wings clipped and then sniveled to each other about how it just wasn't fair, that they weren't getting the support they needed/deserved, and maybe they should just go off and do their own royal thing without any oversight from those meanies in Buckingham Palace or the press questioning their every last move (and that is not the same as the race-baiting, which was and is abhorrent). But, let's be real about the IQ of Meghan and Harry. Meghan is definitely the smarter of the two, and, in that regard, I do think she's the one driving the train, so to speak - everything they are doing is where her strengths laid before they got married. That's hardly a coincidence. Do I think that makes her pushy? I suppose it could, but the implication would then be that Harry is pussy-whipped. I don't think either is the case. Like I said, they're both a couple of narcissists who negatively reinforce to each other's worst perceptions, attitudes and behaviors.

PUSSYWHIPPED? Excuse me? That is so offensive on so many levels.
And @Lemonade20 her race is important because many of the criticisms of her are micro-aggressions often atttributed to black women.

 

[skategal]

Meghan on the other hand is American (don't you dare bring up her race).

Why can't we bring up her race?

She can't leave her race aside?

And her race was a reason that she was treated badly.

Even the BRF has admitted this by putting out the statement to stop making nasty comments about her race.

Just tells me Meghan is the one driving the boat. I don't think Harry would have chosen Hollywood or remained in the public eye like this.

This cracks me up considering if Harry had said to Meghan "We are BRF. We stay in Britain," do you really think they would have moved to Los Angeles?

Harry had to have been at least a co-driver of that decision or else it would have never happened.

In fact, in the interview with James Corden, he says he was. He says he did what he had to do to protect his family?

 

[canbelto]

I wish they had a longer engagement to be honest. Kate had I think 8 years to prepare and that's why she transitioned into the Royal family so well. She is also British and knew there were certain expectations.
Meghan on the other hand is American (don't you dare bring up her race). She had no idea what she was getting involved with. She wanted to be the next Diana, loved by everyone (hence all the charity work). But she couldn't control the narrative and worse had very little say in the Royal family. She has always been her own person so being told what to do must have been too much for her.
When they vacationed in Canada, I thought, wow, they are doing something great. Taking a break from all of this is just what they needed. Then came the LA move and Netflix deals. Just tells me Meghan is the one driving the boat. I don't think Harry would have chosen Hollywood or remained in the public eye like this.

Why can't I bring up her race? Her race is the reaosn why the British tabloids treated her so horribly. The comments about her are classic microaggressions made about black women. The same things were often said about Michelle Obama and Kamala Harris today.

 

[MsZem]

Ok, a better example than LeBron is all the influencers who have been made fabulously wealthy thru social media. Or the models who trade on their faces & figures like Kylie Jenner. Do these people do any good for others? Do they make our world a better place? H & M are not nearly as wealthy as Kylie but I think that if thru their charity work they also get some gratification for themselves, who are they hurting? And why so much venom thrown at them?

Kylie Jenner donates money to various causes. She could certainly do more, though she is still quite young and may grow into it later - at some point, people often look for something more meaningful than money. The Jenner/Kardashian clan may not be everyone's cup of tea, but the amount of venom they attract is out of all proportion to what they do.

I'm not in a position to say if famous people are doing good to gratify their own ego, burnish their image, or out of true altruism - and I'm not sure it even makes much difference to the beneficiaries, so long as they get the help they need.

 

[clairecloutier]

I feel like people are making some reductionist assumptions about Meghan. She can at the same time have experienced racism based on her identity and have a somewhat ambiguous economic status in terms of how she grew-up and at the same time have some degree of privilege associated with having a father who was an insider in a highly desirable industry and having gone to prestigious educational institutions.

If I had to characterize Meghan's background (not that anyone is asking me to), I might describe it as "insecure upper middle class." Because of her father's job/insider status in Hollywood, she had exposure and connections to people with wealth. And it seems that the family income was sufficient to avoid any type of real scarcity/want, and the income may have been more than that at times (but it's important to remember that employment in Hollywood is often job-by-job, not always steady). But because of her parents' divorce, Meghan's access to her father's money may have been more limited than in intact families. And her mom's background was definitely not one of wealth or privilege, and her mom was clearly the bigger influence in her life and the main custodial parent. Meghan is what I would think of as living on the edges of the upper middle class. Kate grew up squarely within the upper middle class. Whatever status the Middleton parents were born into, they had plenty of money by the time she could remember, and they stayed together, so there was no division of family income. She went to exclusive boarding schools throughout her school years.

ETA: It would be interesting to hear how Meghan would describe her background in terms of SES. She might characterize it differently!

 

[Wyliefan]

It sounds like one of those Edith Wharton novels where the heroine runs with the rich but is always on the brink of starvation. (Poor Lily Bart.)

 

[skategal]

But because of her parents' divorce, Meghan's access to her father's money may have been more limited than in intact families.

He also had to support other children and an ex-wife so for sure there wasn't tons of money to go around....at least until he won $750,000 in the lotto in 1990.

Perhaps that is where the tuition $$ came from? (He says he spent it all and filed for bankruptcy in 2016.)

Although many kids go to private school on scholarships. Maybe she did too?

 

[Karen-W]

This thread is getting ugly again & some of the posts in here are .

The fact that someone actually used the term “pussy-whipped” pretty much says it all.

PUSSYWHIPPED? Excuse me? That is so offensive on so many levels.
And @Lemonade20 her race is important because many of the criticisms of her are micro-aggressions often atttributed to black women.

Would either of you have preferred that I prettied the term up and just called him "whipped"? Because the context still would have been there and I'm sure that I would have been accused, once more, falsely, of committing a micro-aggression.

Women, regardless of the color of their skin, are called "pushy" all the time (which is why Sheryl Sandberg wrote the book "Lean In"), so there wasn't and isn't any need to bring race into this and I'm very offended that you did so.

And, honestly, if that is the only response you have, @canbelto, to the content of my response and explanation as to why I think Meghan is driving the bus on this move to LA, then it makes it pretty clear that you are far too focused on race than on other factors that contributed to people's perceptions of them.

This cracks me up considering if Harry had said to Meghan "We are BRF. We stay in Britain," do you really think they would have moved to Los Angeles?

Harry had to have been at least a co-driver of that decision or else it would have never happened.

In fact, in the interview with James Corden, he says he was. He says he did what he had to do to protect his family?

I think Harry absolutely helped drive this decision. Again, it goes back to their narcissistic egos feeding off each other, negatively reinforcing just how toxic it is in Britain and how life would be so much better elsewhere. That the elsewhere has wound up being LA? C'mon, do we really believe that, given his druthers, Harry would have wound up in LA, of all places, had he chosen, independent of Meghan, to run away from life in the BRF? This is the guy who gave an interview saying he'd love nothing more than to live in Africa, working at a safari or in conservation. To get out of Britain and the toxicity of the tabloid media coverage, certainly, Harry was a co-driver in that choice. But LA? Puh-lease. That's all Meghan.

 

[puglover]

I find the Kar/Jenner comparisons interesting. They realize that they themselves are the commodity they are selling not really skin care, make-up or underwear. The price they have paid, partly through their reality show, is letting the public in repeatedly to their private lives, relationships, even children's lives. I think we can assume Harry and Meghan are not prepared to pay that price. I don't think it matters terribly what kind of financial/social status Meghan grew up with. She is now in the very top % and that is how she will be perceived.

 

[Japanfan]

Would either of you have preferred that I prettied the term up and just called him "whipped"? Because the context still would have been there and I'm sure that I would have been accused, once more, falsely, of committing a micro-aggression.

Less offensive, but still offensive. It invokes the Japanese idea that women are 'ruling from underground' - the construction of woman as wily, conniving, and nasty (the reality being that when women are denied power, they manipulate as the only way to pursue power, big surprise) . That construction spans race.

 

[Karen-W]

Less offensive, but still offensive. It invokes the Japanese idea that women are 'ruling from underground' - the construction of woman as wily, conniving, and nasty. That construction spans race.

It's a fairly common concept, as you state, across many cultures. I'm not sure it's any less offensive than calling someone a "Stepford wife", with regard to marital relationship dynamics.

What's more, I didn't actually assert that I thought he was, indeed, whipped. My statement was that I think she is the smarter of the two and that she is the one driving them in this direction, that her professional/business experience is clearly impacting the choices they are making. Does any of that make her 'pushy'? If so, then the implication is that he is 'whipped'.