allezfred
In A Fake Snowball Fight
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It was one of the more complete/not-so-random programs of the 80s, those isolation moves aside
Which is the horrifying part of it.
It was one of the more complete/not-so-random programs of the 80s, those isolation moves aside
If the CF placements had remained the same and everyone had skated clean in the free, the top three would have been 1. Witt, 2. Thomas 3. Manley.
The judge's votes would have broken in favor of Witt (Dick Button mentioned the way the judges were leaning after both Witt and Thomas skated great in the short.).
It's hard to take a title away from a champion.
I agree with this, I also think that if both Witt and Thomas had hit their full 5 triple content ( 2 3tls, 2 3s, and 1 3r) and skated in the same order Thomas would have won has well. People might forget that just as charismatic as Witt was, Thomas could light up a crowd when she was on and skating well, as evidenced by her 'almost' clean skate at U.S. Nats. where she had the audience on their feet. I think a 5 triple Thomas skating last would have beaten a 5 triple Witt skating second in part because she would have brought the house down.I don't think the SP was instructive: I think Witt was elevated in the SP just to set up a serious showdown in the LP of a 'Battle of the Carmens', and this is not judging related, but there has been discussion in other threads about the SP in Calgary and a lot of people thought that Thomas as well as Ito and Kadavy skated better than Witt.
Also, I want to point out again that Witt skating 2nd in the final group (Manley 3rd; Thomas last) didn't pull great tech marks which was the tie-breaker in '88; IIRC, 2 5.6s, 4 5.7s, 3 5.8s, and the judges easily put Manley ahead of her in the LP, with Thomas still left to skate and knowing that she could go clean here based on the SP and her Nationals LP. I still think Thomas with a clean LP would've won (she only had to wedge herself between Manley and Witt in the LP and that range of marks was within her reach). Manley's marks were high but did not lock up 1st in the LP.
ITA with all of the above.In a head to head at the Olympics, there were 3 differences from 87 as outlined above: WSS was a superior program to Carmen, Witt no longer was landing the 3L, and Thomas improved on the 2nd mark. I think in a nutshell that would have done it
I'm still skeptical of even a clean Thomas being able to beat Witt with that judging panel. If we look at how the short program was marked, the US and Japan went for Thomas in the short and likely would have done so in the free if Thomas had skated better, but I think it's less likely with the other judges.
It's highly unlikely that East Germany or the Soviet Union would have gone for Thomas under any circumstances. As it was, they had Witt ahead of Manley in the free. So that leaves Canada, Switzerland, Great Britain, West Germany, and Czechoslovakia, and Thomas would need three of them to join US and Japan.
West Germany probably would have gone with Thomas with a cleaner skate - as it was, Thomas was only 0.1 behind Witt overall and beat Witt on the technical mark on West Germany's card. I could easily see Thomas getting another 0.1 on the technical and beating Witt in a tiebreaker.
Canada is a maybe - Canada's marks were Manley 5.8, 5.9; Witt 5.7, 5.9; Thomas 5.6, 5.7. Canada conceivably could have gone with 5.8, 5.8 for a clean Thomas, to put Thomas ahead of Witt but behind Manley. But I don't think we can say clearly.
But being generous, and assuming Canada does go for Thomas, she still needs one of Switzerland, Great Britain, or Czechoslovakia. And that's where I think the argument falls down. These three judges, along with East Germany, were the harshest on Thomas compared to Witt as it was. All three also gave Thomas 0.2 lower than Witt in the SP on the artistic mark, so I think it's fair to say that they were not big fans of Thomas's skating. And in the free, the Swiss and Czechoslovakian judges gave Manley 5.9, 5.8 and Witt 5.8, 5.9, with Manley winning the tiebreak, so there was no way to put Thomas in between them. If they wanted Thomas ahead of Witt, they would have had to give Thomas 5.9, 5.9. Considering how they marked her as is, that wasn't happening. The British judge was the only one who had some room - she gave Witt 5.6, 5.9, so she could have put Thomas ahead with something like 5.8, 5.7, but I think that's still a stretch.
Thomas's path to a gold medal was if Witt messed up in the SP, a la 1986.
And I have officially spent way too much time on this.
I agree, I also think Witt's SP was a far superior program to her LP. I loved Debi's SP, but I wasn't stunned when Witt took the 2nd mark, the SP (and the unitard) were a bit 'progressive', while neither were turning over any tables in their choice of Carmen for the LP. In case you can't tell, I much preferred Thomas' Carmen (per Nationals) to Witt's. Love the ending straightline fw sequence.You yourself just did a great job showing that there was a path for Thomas based on the judging breakdown. No reason why the judge from GBR would not slot Thomas into a win with her 3-3, 3L, superior spins to Witt. I agree somewhat that the judge from CZE was not thrilled with Thomas in the SP, although that may have had to do with distaste with Dead or Alive and the unitard. Her LP music was much different, and skating last with all her elements in place may have become an emotional performance. Debi was like that: Performance level shot up with a clean performance and elevated the 2nd mark
What was Debi Thomas’ best performance of Carmen? What was Witt’s?
Thomas 2 footed her 3 loop and it looked like she may have 2 footed her final 3 salchow as well. Even so, she got a standing ovation. Witt fell on her 3 loop right in front of the judges during warm-up, but nailed a big one in her program. I also believe Debi’s weird mix of music did her no favors, whereas Witt’s program was more cohesive. Witt deservedly brought the house down.I think people still have memories of 1987 Worlds where I believe Witt and Thomas were matched evenly in the jump content and it was Witt who brought the house down and won. Though, her West Side Story program was much better than her Carmen one, skating wise. But then Carmen was "iconic", so...and I guess her landing 5 triples was sort of a shock and added more excitement to Witt's performance. And she skated AFTER Debi whereas as you pointed out in Calgary, Thomas was skating after Witt.
This is a brilliant, spot-on post. Everything recounted here is precisely why a clean Witt would have still managed to defeat a clean Thomas. The political aspect can not and should not be ignored or underestimated. It was alive and well.I'm still skeptical of even a clean Thomas being able to beat Witt with that judging panel. If we look at how the short program was marked, the US and Japan went for Thomas in the short and likely would have done so in the free if Thomas had skated better, but I think it's less likely with the other judges.
It's highly unlikely that East Germany or the Soviet Union would have gone for Thomas under any circumstances. As it was, they had Witt ahead of Manley in the free. So that leaves Canada, Switzerland, Great Britain, West Germany, and Czechoslovakia, and Thomas would need three of them to join US and Japan.
West Germany probably would have gone with Thomas with a cleaner skate - as it was, Thomas was only 0.1 behind Witt overall and beat Witt on the technical mark on West Germany's card. I could easily see Thomas getting another 0.1 on the technical and beating Witt in a tiebreaker.
Canada is a maybe - Canada's marks were Manley 5.8, 5.9; Witt 5.7, 5.9; Thomas 5.6, 5.7. Canada conceivably could have gone with 5.8, 5.8 for a clean Thomas, to put Thomas ahead of Witt but behind Manley. But I don't think we can say clearly.
But being generous, and assuming Canada does go for Thomas, she still needs one of Switzerland, Great Britain, or Czechoslovakia. And that's where I think the argument falls down. These three judges, along with East Germany, were the harshest on Thomas compared to Witt as it was. All three also gave Thomas 0.2 lower than Witt in the SP on the artistic mark, so I think it's fair to say that they were not big fans of Thomas's skating. And in the free, the Swiss and Czechoslovakian judges gave Manley 5.9, 5.8 and Witt 5.8, 5.9, with Manley winning the tiebreak, so there was no way to put Thomas in between them. If they wanted Thomas ahead of Witt, they would have had to give Thomas 5.9, 5.9. Considering how they marked her as is, that wasn't happening. The British judge was the only one who had some room - she gave Witt 5.6, 5.9, so she could have put Thomas ahead with something like 5.8, 5.7, but I think that's still a stretch.
Thomas's path to a gold medal was if Witt messed up in the SP, a la 1986.
And I have officially spent way too much time on this.
In a perfect world:
1. Trenary
2. Thomas
3. Ito
4. Canadian
5. Witt
This is a brilliant, spot-on post. Everything recounted here is precisely why a clean Witt would have still managed to defeat a clean Thomas. The political aspect can not and should not be ignored or underestimated. It was alive and well.
To make that determination would be to pass over politically-charged (biased) judging panel(s) of the day, giving them the benefit of the doubt and a lot of wiggle room, which simply did not exist or very infrequently, especially at the Olympic Games. Back in the day, judging blocs remained unified.I am confounded that people have a hard time believing that an international judge would give Thomas a 5.8/5.7. She was the USFSA #1, '86 WC, '87 WSM, skating with a 3-3, 3L and superior spins and FW, and in '88 the skating world made a big buzz about her focus on the 2nd mark. Her marks at '87 Worlds ranged from 5.7-5.9 (that's by memory), so there is plenty of evidence to suggest that she would have gotten the job done. As far as a 5.9/5.9 from the Swiss judge: IDK the history of that judge in re Thomas. If one is basing that it was 'impossible' for Thomas in the LP because of the marking in the SP, keep in mind that the themes, choreography, costuming, etc. for the SP and LP were polar opposites. Also, a lot of times judges under 6.0 system just scored on a higher level, IOW higher marks all around. Thomas skating last perfectly would have allowed for such a judge to give away a 5.9/5.9. I agree that the CZE judge dumped Thomas and would probably not have placed her any higher than 3rd. But @Erin even posted that Thomas only needed one judge GBR, SUI and CZE (It was a good analysis, BTW), so the job would've gotten done.
To make that determination would be to pass over politically-charged (biased) judging panel(s) of the day, giving them the benefit of the doubt and a lot of wiggle room, which simply did not exist or very infrequently, especially at the Olympic Games. Back in the day, judging blocs remained unified.
Unless Katarina had an error-filled skate, gold was hers to lose. Politics affected and influenced everything due to the fact the Olympic Games were a springboard for hard-core (manipulative) behaviors, politically-charged statements, posturing, loyalties, and revealing alliances.
Debi's résumé was not much of a factor, despite being the USA's number one lady, etc. It sounds harsh, but in the past, primarily, the Olympic Games have been used to signal strength and send the message of a political nature. It seems excessive, but sports were and continue to be a tool to make political statements or display government or country posturing. So, unless the athlete made it impossible to validate their victory by bungling their program, it wasn't much of a contest. The gold medalist was predetermined.
Debi and Katarina competed at a time when a lot of decisions about the outcome were out of their control in a very significant way. All judged sports are that way to a certain extent, back then, notably so.
Rivals and their supposedly Olympic nail-biting competitions will always be promoted to draw in the audience and entice the viewer, but the smoke-filled room does exist.
As gymnasts will say, "there's everything else, and then there's the Olympics."
I remember watching this on tv. I still remember thinking that Debi looked defeated when she skated out to center ice. She just looked (to me) that she was mentally not there.
I am confounded that people have a hard time believing that an international judge would give Thomas a 5.8/5.7. I agree that the CZE judge dumped Thomas and would probably not have placed her any higher than 3rd. But @Erin even posted that Thomas only needed one judge GBR, SUI and CZE (It was a good analysis, BTW), so the job would've gotten done.
It was strange! She had done well in both figures and SP. It may have been the stress of leading after the SP, or in light of recently disclosed facts about her life and mental well-being, perhaps she was battling something worse. She had once said that she was an 'all-or-nothing girl'. It may be that after the 2-foot UR on the 3-3, she understood her performance was going to be imperfect and lost that 110% drive to win right then and there.
I think people still have memories of 1987 Worlds where I believe Witt and Thomas were matched evenly in the jump content and it was Witt who brought the house down and won. Though, her West Side Story program was much better than her Carmen one, skating wise. But then Carmen was "iconic", so...and I guess her landing 5 triples was sort of a shock and added more excitement to Witt's performance. And she skated AFTER Debi whereas as you pointed out in Calgary, Thomas was skating after Witt.
I am confounded that people have a hard time believing that an international judge would give Thomas a 5.8/5.7. She was the USFSA #1, '86 WC, '87 WSM, skating with a 3-3, 3L and superior spins and FW
It may be that after the 2-foot UR on the 3-3, she understood her performance was going to be imperfect and lost that 110% drive to win right then and there.
It's not that I have a hard time believing that "an international judge" would give Thomas 5.8, 5.7. I have a hard time believing that specific British judge would, based on how the judge marked the program as it was. And my post that Thomas needed only one judge was with the assumption that she got the Canadian judge, which I feel like was far from a guarantee. If I had to handicap it, I would say the chances of a clean Thomas getting a vote ahead of Witt would be something like:
USA: 100%
JPN, FRG: 95%
CAN: 60%
GBR: 30%
SUI, CZE: 5%
GDR, URS: 0%
Most importantly Thomas’s Carmen was a bag of shite. The comparison to one of the most iconic figure skating programmes ever did her no favours.
In light of what happened in the men's event, wherein, the two World Champions from the previous two years came into the Freeskate with the exact same placement in the two previous phases of the competition as Thomas and Witt (Boitano 2nd in Figures, Orser 3rd; Boitano 2nd in SP, Orser in 1st) and the judging panel was made up judges from the exact SAME countries as the ladies event save one (the men had Denmark, the women had GB), I don't think it's too far fetched that had Thomas skated lights out ala Boitano, and Witt skated a strong but conservative program ala Orser(you could argue omitting the 3R) that Thomas could have won.