Hanyu vs Chen PCS

[skateboy]

You must have missed this part:
“I’d like to see completely different programs in his interpretation. In performing the elements, in the build up. Where is the joy now? (He does) entry, jump, exist. Another jump, another exit. (His) jumps were cool. But it gets boring to look at such skating (after a while I guess?).”
In short, Raf knows his student’s weaknesses and even disagreed with the reporter saying the current way could go on for a long term.

Oops, you're right. My bad.

Although I will say that Raf is exaggerating a bit.

 

[MAXSwagg]

IMO Raf just pulls things out of his ass most of the time for effect or reaction...

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Nathan’s SP was okay

OK? Hmmm I think its the best SP Ive ever seen from mens or ladies.. and my as* has been around. Like, majorly.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

What I appreciate about Chen is that him and his team come to the ice with fresh ideas and music choices and jumps galore. 10s across the board Honey!

I see Nathan as fresh and interesting, where I see Hanyu as a traditionalist. More war-horsey.... kinda... and thats fine.

As far as PCS I leave SS and TR up to you all cause I aint no trained specialist. But when it comes to Choreography, performance and interpretation I see them as true equals.

Shantay, I stay!

 

[VGThuy]

Just skimming this thread, why are some people calling Vincent "Bincent"? I found that in this thread and on twitter.

 

[IceAlisa]

Just skimming this thread, why are some people calling Vincent "Bincent"? I found that in this thread and on twitter.

I thought it was a typo? B is to the right of V on the keyboard

 

[VGThuy]

I thought it was a typo?

No, I'm seeing it more than once to make me think it's a thing. I have a theory some people do it on social media because usually when they call him "bincent" they're talking smack about him but don't want him to see it. Maybe it's a thing the young skating fans who call Twitter and Tumblr home do. Just type in "bincent" on Twitter and you'll many tweets using that and it's always negative tweets about him. But maybe it is a typo as the "b" and "v" keys are close together.

 

[meer]

Calling him Bincent is intentional. He gets a lot of hate for his supposed political views and a lot of twitter fandom won't spell out his name correctly. I'm not sure it's really to keep him from seeing it but just to show they don't like him. Bincent is one of the nicer variations of his name I've seen tbh.

the person who wrote it here might be a typo, but no it's def not a typo on twitter if you see it. But this is OT

 

[MAXSwagg]

I think it’s jist a typo. Plus there’s no V in Japanese. This thread is turning into one of conspiracy theories. Lol Or maybe the B is for the “ballerina ankles” Tom Z said he has. Why would he get hate? He seems like a nice boy to me.

 

[BittyBug]

Hanyu's issues in PCS aren't just posture. So many times during the program he drops character entirely, his body goes slack, arms dangle by his side. This really takes away from IN for me. And this FS is just not a good vehicle. The music should elevate him, not water him down. See Chopin, see Seimei.

I adore Hanyu but I agree with your observation. In the freeskate in between the jumps there were sections where I saw pre-Sochi Hanyu - dropped head and upper body, loose arms, looking down on the ice. I suspect that given his injury it took everything he had to reel off that tech content and he didn't have a lot of energy left for the choreo.

 

[VGThuy]

Is it a conspiracy theory when it actually happens though? For you, I'm sure it was a typo. It just took me off-guard because I saw it show it up on my Twitter feed a few times after the Mens LP and well, they were all not very nice comments.

 

[Alexa]

In this interview with Meryl, Brian talked about Yuzuru’s recovery and stamina in this competition not able to be at a point to maximize points on footwork etc.

https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/v...-on-yuzuru-hanyu-s-future-he-ll-be-back-soon/

 

[IceAlisa]

I think it’s jist a typo. Plus there’s no V in Japanese. This thread is turning into one of conspiracy theories. Lol Or maybe the B is for the “ballerina ankles” Tom Z said he has. Why would he get hate? He seems like a nice boy to me.

That makes no sense about the ballerina ankles. They are notoriously strong and stable.

 

[Willin]

Different taste. Different style. Different poison.

Yuzu - Feminine, flowy, flowery, pink and sequin.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-jt-w2wB3I

Nathan - Masculine, modern, edgy, B/W and simplicity.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhTsv67wDs

This is almost exactly how I see it: Yuzu is a student of the sport - someone who wants to perfect a classical style of skating and pay tribute to the greats of the past. Nathan is someone that prefers to go off and do his own more modern thing that most skaters don't do.

Personally I prefer Nathan because I like to see innovation and new styles of choreography and skating, but I fully understand why people enjoy Yuzu as well. I personally do enjoy Yuzu when he does things like Seimei that show a different side to his skating.

Hanyu's issues in PCS aren't just posture. So many times during the program he drops character entirely, his body goes slack, arms dangle by his side. This really takes away from IN for me. And this FS is just not a good vehicle. The music should elevate him, not water him down. See Chopin, see Seimei.

The GOE on his jumps weren't what they normally can be. Very little flow out of some of them and issues with landing. The skate was laborious, he came to what seemed a complete stop at times. He has and can do much better, just not this time. He is, after all, still injured.

Nathan did better IMO at Nats in terms of port de bras and SS, mostly I am guessing because he had been with Raf for a few weeks leading to the comp. Here he went straight to Japan and it showed in terms of his edges not being as deep and arms more chaotic. But to say he didn't interpret the music, that he doesn't have a style is to be purely partisan.

This is a huge issue with Hanyu for me - and it's not just a Hanyu problem. A lot of skaters can do the choreography beautifully but have big breaks in character. That was a problem I had with Gracie Gold back in the day. Ashley would also fall for this until she got to Moulin Rouge. You also have skaters like Mirai that are completely dead in every aspect until the jumps are all landed. You have a beautiful program and then right before a jump complete and utter sloppiness that takes you out of the program.

What bugs me about Yuzu doing it is that you know he doesn't have to. You know he's a good enough skater not to have these moments of lost focus. And yet he still does.




As for Nathan and Yuzu and every other male skater at this point's jump-skate-jump sections of programs, I'm not optimistic this problem will be fixed as long as the jump requirements are just as numerous and the program length stays as short as it's been shortened to. As much as I loathe to say it, I don't know how much more these skaters can do transition-wise between jumps with the shortened time limit. Either the ISU needs to take out elements to make more time for transitions or they need to bump the time back up if we don't want to see the jump-skate-jump pattern.

 

[Birdseye]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHREHdbVlw
In case anyone forgot what an actual program deserving of high 9's looks like.......

 

[IceAlisa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHREHdbVlw
In case anyone forgot what an actual program deserving of high 9's looks like.......

Oh how I miss those magical blades. Thank you for this.

 

[Karen-W]

Different taste. Different style. Different poison.

Yuzu - Feminine, flowy, flowery, pink and sequin.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-jt-w2wB3I

Nathan - Masculine, modern, edgy, B/W and simplicity.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhTsv67wDs

Both are absolutely phenomenal skaters. Personally, I really appreciate Nathan's modern, edgy aesthetic. He has an innate "cool" factor that I hope can and will appeal to US audiences. We need someone like Nathan to re-ignite interest in skating - he has the jumps and the competitive mindset that appeal to Americans - we like our winners. It's a big deal that he

 

[Japanfan]

Calling him Bincent is intentional. He gets a lot of hate for his supposed political views and a lot of twitter fandom won't spell out his name correctly.

What political views specifically?

 

[MAXSwagg]

Both are absolutely phenomenal skaters. Personally, I really appreciate Nathan's modern, edgy aesthetic. He has an innate "cool" factor that I hope can and will appeal to US audiences. We need someone like Nathan to re-ignite interest in skating - he has the jumps and the competitive mindset that appeal to Americans - we like our winners. It's a big deal that he

Hopefully but I doubt it. It’s a lost cause in the US until a lady comes along which, unless Etery moves to the US, won’t be happening.

 

[VGThuy]

What political views specifically?

He retweeted some stupid comment about a year or so ago when he was 16-17 about biology and transgenderism, but honestly since I work part-time in trans rights advocacy, it's not much different from what most people (including adults) think about transgender issues until they are exposed to more information regarding gender dysphoria and the science behind it. One skater had much more ardent and expressive tweets about it and she kept fighting with people online. I actually offered to have a private chat with her on twitter and she actually took me up on my offer and I found her to be a very honest, nice, and open person who was willing to listen to what I had to say and I in-turn made sure to listen to her as well.

IMO, if he keeps posting and defending those views, then I'll take it more seriously than him just needing to be exposed more to the issue. To me, as a big LGBTQ advocate/ally, being anti-trans is akin to someone being a disavowed racist, but I give people a bit of leeway at first just because often times people really don't know much about it and aren't really married to those views if they are open-minded and actually willing to study the subject and issues more. It's not like hard-line racism where IMO people really should know better by now considering where we are. Someone on another thread said it seems Vincent has become a bit more evolved on the issue.

He was also taken to task for attending the Olympic White House event and being used in a photo-op for Trump though Vincent never expressed any support for Trump. He just defended himself once about taking the opportunity to visit the White House and celebrate being an Olympian. Mirai Nagasu supported him on that even though she couldn't go. I think Zhou was the only U.S. figure skater to go to the WH, but many of them had the excuse that a SOI stop was going on at the same time elsewhere in the country.

He also seems sort of pro-gun, but I hadn't seen him post anything like that for a while and I think some people found maybe one or two tweets about it a year or so ago. My little brother used to be all into automatic weapons and stuff as a teen and then before he became college aged and after everything, he's now all for gun control. He also "liked" and supported some pro-me too posts and other progressive minded tweets as well, including those from Charlie White who was battling racists and sexists on Twitter. To me, I give teens a lot of leeway until it seems they are stubbornly married to a position and it's clear that's it for them (for now).

Now with the whole "shitty skaters" thing regarding skaters who did nothing but posted RIP-like messages about Coughlin (a person they knew) or just posted a black screen, the whole Eunsoo/Mariah thing, and other things including how some young fandom on Twitter seem cliquish and jump on the chance to "cancel" skaters they probably already dislike anyway (and who beat/rival the skaters who seem "in" with skating twitter community) and love to "educate" skaters like how one clearly teenaged Tweeter was so excited about educating Gabriella Papadakis regarding John Coughlin, etc. I'm careful not to jump on Twitter bandwagon campaigns trying to destroy the reputation of a skater.

 

[screech]

I adore Hanyu but I agree with your observation. In the freeskate in between the jumps there were sections where I saw pre-Sochi Hanyu - dropped head and upper body, loose arms, looking down on the ice. I suspect that given his injury it took everything he had to reel off that tech content and he didn't have a lot of energy left for the choreo.

He also occasionally (especially if he misses a jump) will just toe-push power skate for a few seconds, with his head down, arms pumping. First time I really noticed it was seeing him live at the 2016 Skate Canada. Now I notice it in most of his competitive skates.
I also find that if his arms don't have a specific choreographic movement, they're dangling by his waist.

I do think that overall Hanyu should be higher in PCS than Nathan, but I also think that Hanyu is usually overscored in that area.

 

[IceAlisa]

Different taste. Different style. Different poison.

Yuzu - Feminine, flowy, flowery, pink and sequin.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-jt-w2wB3I

Nathan - Masculine, modern, edgy, B/W and simplicity.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhTsv67wDs

I dislike both of these and I like both skaters. EX are usually not my thing

 

[Meoima]

In the end, it seems the only one who is so honest and does not sugarcoat things is Raf. I still laugh at his comment about Transition as just a wink and it is too much bothersome so let's eliminate it. The Emperor's New Clothes is really a timeless story. As long as the winners represent the right flag, they are GOAT and deserve everything.

 

[IceAlisa]

In the end, it seems the only one who is so honest and does not sugarcoat things is Raf. I still laugh at his comment about Transition as just a wink and it is too much bothersome so let's eliminate it. The Emperor's New Clothes is really a timeless story. As long as the winners represent the right flag, they are GOAT and deserve everything.

Sore loser is not a good look

 

[Meoima]

Sore loser is not a good look

No, I am very much fine with the results. Have I said I have no problem with the PCS? Read my posts, never a complaint about PCS I am just laughing at people calling something cool and all while the coach be like: "No, it is just this." Surely it is so fun to read.

 

[dinakt]

Both Yuzuru and Nathan are giants in the sport who can combine technical achievement with deeply personal interpretation (as was Patrick Chan). Arguing who has better PCS seems utterly indulgent to me. They are both the best in the field.
I love Nathan's edgy modern style. I love that he HAS such distinctive, experimental style- not many get there, especially that young (and with his tech). It seems strange to me that anybody would argue that he is not an outstanding dancer.
In the case of these two, my vote is strictly "it is a matter of taste who you prefer". I prefer to see both, and wish Patrick were still skating. That would have been a feat to see the three competing against each other at their full strength.

 

[IceAlisa]

No, I am very much fine with the results. Have I said I have no problem with the PCS? Read my posts, never a complaint about PCS I am just laughing at people calling something cool and all while the coach be like: "No, it is just this." Surely it is so fun to read.

I’ve read the interview in the original Russian which is my first language. Raf says nothing of the sort

 

[lala]

No, I'm seeing it more than once to make me think it's a thing. I have a theory some people do it on social media because usually when they call him "bincent" they're talking smack about him but don't want him to see it. Maybe it's a thing the young skating fans who call Twitter and Tumblr home do. Just type in "bincent" on Twitter and you'll many tweets using that and it's always negative tweets about him. But maybe it is a typo as the "b" and "v" keys are close together.

He has many haters among the young new FS fans because he was in the White House.

 

[lala]

He retweeted some stupid comment about a year or so ago when he was 16-17 about biology and transgenderism, but honestly since I work part-time in trans rights advocacy, it's not much different from what most people (including adults) think about transgender issues until they are exposed to more information regarding gender dysphoria and the science behind it. One skater had much more ardent and expressive tweets about it and she kept fighting with people online. I actually offered to have a private chat with her on twitter and she actually took me up on my offer and I found her to be a very honest, nice, and open person who was willing to listen to what I had to say and I in-turn made sure to listen to her as well.

IMO, if he keeps posting and defending those views, then I'll take it more seriously than him just needing to be exposed more to the issue. To me, as a big LGBTQ advocate/ally, being anti-trans is akin to someone being a disavowed racist, but I give people a bit of leeway at first just because often times people really don't know much about it and aren't really married to those views if they are open-minded and actually willing to study the subject and issues more. It's not like hard-line racism where IMO people really should know better by now considering where we are. Someone on another thread said it seems Vincent has become a bit more evolved on the issue.

He was also taken to task for attending the Olympic White House event and being used in a photo-op for Trump though Vincent never expressed any support for Trump. He just defended himself once about taking the opportunity to visit the White House and celebrate being an Olympian. Mirai Nagasu supported him on that even though she couldn't go. I think Zhou was the only U.S. figure skater to go to the WH, but many of them had the excuse that a SOI stop was going on at the same time elsewhere in the country.

He also seems sort of pro-gun, but I hadn't seen him post anything like that for a while and I think some people found maybe one or two tweets about it a year or so ago. My little brother used to be all into automatic weapons and stuff as a teen and then before he became college aged and after everything, he's now all for gun control. He also "liked" and supported some pro-me too posts and other progressive minded tweets as well, including those from Charlie White who was battling racists and sexists on Twitter. To me, I give teens a lot of leeway until it seems they are stubbornly married to a position and it's clear that's it for them (for now).

Now with the whole "shitty skaters" thing regarding skaters who did nothing but posted RIP-like messages about Coughlin (a person they knew) or just posted a black screen, the whole Eunsoo/Mariah thing, and other things including how some young fandom on Twitter seem cliquish and jump on the chance to "cancel" skaters they probably already dislike anyway (and who beat/rival the skaters who seem "in" with skating twitter community) and love to "educate" skaters like how one clearly teenaged Tweeter was so excited about educating Gabriella Papadakis regarding John Coughlin, etc. I'm careful not to jump on Twitter bandwagon campaigns trying to destroy the reputation of a skater.

oh, I just read your post...you know the story why is Vincent so hated

 

[Meoima]

I’ve read the interview in the original Russian which is my first language. Raf says nothing of the sort

Surely I also read the interview. My point is along this line:

People: OMG this is art! This is cool!
Raf: No, it is just this...

It is a hilarious take to me. It is cold and calculated and I enjoy his take. I am not a person of "artistry" and "beautiful magical dance moves" etc.

As for the PCS, I have never complained a word. If you stay in this sport long enough, you know Raf's words should have been rinsed and repeated: 1-foot skating, 2-foot skating etc... it does not matter. If the judges like it, then they reward it well.

How many times people have to repeat that Carolina Kostner did not have much skating transitions in her programs and that her layout was so simple and easy but hey what does the complexity mean when her style was much loved by the judges and the PCS for her was astronomical? Not that I have any issues with Carolina. I like watching her and giggling at her PCS.

PCS has never been a tool to measure "artistry" or technique. It is just a tool for judges to say which style they prefer and love.