The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

[Tavi]

After listening to the Kimmie interview they would have to ban some coaches and officials- so they really can’t ban him for being cheeky. Which is what the Ashley posts were. Ashley always brings a show to Nationals- she will definitely be missed this year. He pointed out Ashley is a personality. I didn’t find it offensive but I also got the reference.

As for the USFS looking bad- obviously they can do that all on their own. I don’t think Dave really gives a flying what what regarding a press pass anyway.

Yeah I was just speaking generally, but rules need to be applied consistently and as someone else here (@laviemn I think) mentioned, they have to make sense / be justifiable.

As to whether or not Dave’s statements about Ashley are just “cheeky” or could be construed differently- all I can say is that people on message boards (including me) love to speculate and throw words like defamation/ discrimination around, but what really matters is what the law says. Since Dave’s a smart guy, I’d guess (I hope!) he’s consulted with a lawyer who specializes in media /journalism matters, and gotten guidance on what he can say / what lines not to cross.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I think Dave/TSL sees itself as more of a content creator/YouTube channel rather than a journalist. TSL aims to entertain and comment vs. report and investigate. Obviously the line between your Logan Pauls and Rachel Maddows is blurring every year, but as it stands social media engagement is the thing TSL cares about most.

IMO, snarking on Ashley's new influencer style instagram vs. commenting on the drama she brings to Nationals is more indicative of their mission to generate likes and comments; the former is more petty than latter.

 

[bardtoob]

Obviously the line between your Logan Pauls and Rachel Maddows is blurring every year, but as it stands social media engagement is the thing TSL cares about most.

Blurrs from (Very Cute OR Very Smart) to (Neither Smart Nor Cute)

 

[Tinami Amori]

TSL’s comments.
Ashley’s response.

Both are ineffectively snarky and in a different way stupid. DL's "drama" comment is relatively funny, taking a dig a the sweater diminishes his "skating specialist" status, and he should not have said "white girl"; and AW sounds and jests like an 11-year old schooler.

The former Romanian gymnast, Emilia Eberle, went on record that the Karolyis used to beat her and other teammates during training. This excerpt was taken from her Wikipedia profile page.

In November 2008, Eberle — who now goes by the name Trudi Kollar, incorporating her first name and her married last name — gave an interview to KCRA-TV attesting that Béla and Márta Károlyi regularly beat her and her teammates for mistakes they made in practice or competition. "In one word, I can say it was brutal," she told KCRA.

I remember this interview and a lot of discussions about it, including “us, kids who were in sports behind the iron curtain”. Our reaction was: that while any manhandling was wrong and we certainly did not like it, yet the word “beating” is not quite right and too harsh. We were not “beaten”, we were slapped on the butts, backs, or upside the head, and sometimes had our ears pulled.
https://deti.mail.ru/pic/timynce/2015/02/05/deti.mail.ru_p0jVbjc.jpg

It’s not right, it should not happen, it’s not effective… but it was not “beating”. We also noticed that often “former iron curtain block athletes” exaggerate the circumstances to get pity, support and publicity. “Westerners” love to hear “how bad it was on the other side” and the sentiment sometimes gets abused.

 

[laviemn]

I think Dave/TSL sees itself as more of a content creator/YouTube channel rather than a journalist. TSL aims to entertain and comment vs. report and investigate. Obviously the line between your Logan Pauls and Rachel Maddows is blurring every year, but as it stands social media engagement is the thing TSL cares about most.

IMO, snarking on Ashley's new influencer style instagram vs. commenting on the drama she brings to Nationals is more indicative of their mission to generate likes and comments; the former is more petty than latter.

Agree. TSL is not going to satisfy anyone's definition of journalism because that's not its goal.

It is succeeding as a Youtube content creator where success is measured by buzz, comments and, most importantly, view counts. I don't think there's an objective way to dispute that, despite the confusing comments I occasionally see about them being less popular and relevant since Jenny left. Their numbers are the best they have ever been.

 

[mackiecat]

Are none of you young enough to know “white girl” is a common phrase? ( if not look up on urban dictionary) And yes “ white girls” do not post Instagram pics of themselves in the same outfit ( from different days)

 

[skateboy]

Are none of you young enough to know “white girl” is a common phrase? ( if not look up on urban dictionary) And yes “ white girls” do not post Instagram pics of themselves in the same outfit ( from different days)

I'm aware of it. Sure, it's common these days, but incredibly tacky, offensive and juvenile.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Are none of you young enough to know “white girl” is a common phrase? ( if not look up on urban dictionary) And yes “ white girls” do not post Instagram pics of themselves in the same outfit ( from different days)

those of us who are "young enough" call it "valley girl" or "suburbia"... . "white girl" is also another word fo cocaine.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Both are ineffectively snarky and in a different way stupid. DL's "drama" comment is relatively funny, taking a dig a the sweater diminishes his "skating specialist" status, and he should not have said "white girl"; and AW sounds and jests like an 11-year old schooler.



I remember this interview and a lot of discussions about it, including “us, kids who were in sports behind the iron curtain”. Our reaction was: that while any manhandling was wrong and we certainly did not like it, yet the word “beating” is not quite right and too harsh. We were not “beaten”, we were slapped on the butts, backs, or upside the head, and sometimes had our ears pulled.
https://deti.mail.ru/pic/timynce/2015/02/05/deti.mail.ru_p0jVbjc.jpg

It’s not right, it should not happen, it’s not effective… but it was not “beating”. We also noticed that often “former iron curtain block athletes” exaggerate the circumstances to get pity, support and publicity. “Westerners” love to hear “how bad it was on the other side” and the sentiment sometimes gets abused.

I can see how difficult it must have been for the abused American gymnasts to have their grievances addressed.

 

[Willin]

Idk I think the reason I see Dave as different from Christine Brennan or Phil Hersh is that he’s said some rather controversial things about race - particularly about Starr Andrews and her programs this year. And while “white girl” is a phrase (actually, it’s a variation of “basic white b***h”), I still think it can be construed as racist. Just because something’s a joke on the internet or among the population the joke’s about doesn’t mean it’s not a little bit racist. Yes, I take it in stride (because I got the stereotype) but my mom was pretty offended when she heard someone call me that. And let’s be honest, maybe most of TSL’s audience is my age and not my mom’s so they’d get the joke, but that doesn’t make it okay.

While I can’t remember any particular things they’ve said that I found sexist, I know others have found some of their statements sexist.

 

[CaliSteve]

Idk I think the reason I see Dave as different from Christine Brennan or Phil Hersh is that he’s said some rather controversial things about race - particularly about Starr Andrews and her programs this year. And while “white girl” is a phrase (actually, it’s a variation of “basic white b***h”), I still think it can be construed as racist. Just because something’s a joke on the internet or among the population the joke’s about doesn’t mean it’s not a little bit racist. Yes, I take it in stride (because I got the stereotype) but my mom was pretty offended when she heard someone call me that. And let’s be honest, maybe most of TSL’s audience is my age and not my mom’s so they’d get the joke, but that doesn’t make it okay.

While I can’t remember any particular things they’ve said that I found sexist, I know others have found some of their statements sexist.

I think the Starr Andrews comments were taken way out of context, as with the "white girl" reference to Ashley.

 

[aftershocks]

I think the Starr Andrews comments were taken way out of context

Your prerogative to think that. I don't think DL's and Jonathan's mocking disfest toward Starr Andrews and her mother were 'taken out of context' in any way, shape or form. They said what they said in the manner that they said it, all the while laughing and smirking and having a good 'ol, thigh slappin' time, forgetting that they weren't snarking and dissing other human beings privately within the confines of their living room, but rather over the airwaves for all to witness who happen upon their Youtube site. This, even for casual fans or non-fans of figure skating, for whom coming across that ill-advised broadcast might be their first introduction to the sport, and/ or their first introduction to Starr Andrews.

So right, go ahead and continue thinking what they did was harmless. I'm here to say again, and again and forever how long it takes to make it clear to those who prefer to think otherwise: Dave Lease and Jonathan Beyer were wrong to do what they did on that Asian Open podcast episode against Starr Andrews, her mother, Jason Brown, Bradie Tennell, et al. It may have been done for the first time against Starr, but it wasn't the first time they randomly dissed some of their other targets. That's why I previously printed on FSU the entire transcript of their clueless mocking tirade against Starr, her mother, and Starr's so-called 'African-American artist music selections' for as many fans as possible to notice and to draw their own conclusions.

What made DL & cohort's petty and outrageous behavior all the more worse in my estimation, is the way they responded to the resulting criticism they received. Instead of simply apologizing and promising to check and improve their behavior, they again reacted cluelessly, cowardly, irresponsibly and carelessly. "Who us!?" they whined. Then they decided to put together a whole podcast episode on the young Russian ladies phenoms in order to facetiously and unconvincingly slam some of those skaters' music choices in a bid to prove they hadn't intentionally targeted a young African-American skater whom they had termed 'a novelty act,' and whose mother and coaching team they snidely suggested were trolling for 'another viral moment.' That latter claim is so ridiculously insulting and idiotic being leveled against any hardworking athlete, that it barely even warrants mentioning. The problem is that such careless nonsensical slams are grossly infective and irresponsibly and inappropriately influencing the way less knowledgeable viewers may be perceiving the sport of figure skating.

But yeah, this is the confounding and cluelessly run sport of figure skatng, so carry on, as you will. At least something did seem to get through DL's skull about the need to at least put on a pretense of trying to change some of his worst snarky tendencies. Oh well, enjoy what floats your boat. Karma lies in wait for all of us, anon.

 

[aftershocks]

Almost everyone likes the drama and tea, except when they say something about a skater we like.

Nope, it was just for me when the pile-on against all of the skaters and coaches DL & JB have ranted and snarked against reached the most petty, outrageously insulting and absurdist OTT level (against a young up-and-coming skater and her mother to boot) did I suddenly do a slow-burn, check my addictive TSL-watching tendencies and decide to directly and unabashedly document and point out where and how DL's behavior and brazen comments had absolutely crossed the proverbial and literal line for me.

This, after I had been one of those disapproving but casually enabling folk who gave DL a pass along with second and third and fourth chances because of the knowledge, grumbly yet possibly worthwhile ideas, and genuine passion he does possess about figure skating. That DL can't seem to consciously recognize, accept, repent and correct his own egregious failings and poor choices is his own sad tragicomic viral disastrous bust-up. But yeah, we all love being distracted by a car-crash. So let this season's freakin' Game of TSL-Rubbernecking continue!

Dave is eating this up for sure, with those pesky bags and dark circles drooping relentlessly under his eyes. Looks like you need to imbibe more Melatonin, DL, and seek out some skin treatment tips from Johnny Weir and Deanna Stellato posthaste!!!

And now, now, hold your horsies please and refrain from calling me a dreaded 'white girl,' who re-wears fave sweaters on Instagram posts, or any other intended slur.

 

[aftershocks]

Cross-posting from U.S. ladies thread:

TSL Tonya & Nancy gems, plus Elaine Zayak's thoughts on the Zayak rule, which DL and Doug Haw pooh-pooh out of hand. DL's disdain for Zayak's on-ice look is a bit of pwetty princess-mode snobbery. Doug Haw points out how Zayak improved aesthetically. Plus, there are U.S. Nationals ladies predictions. DL & Haw have already anointed Alyssa Liu:
https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=3778 scroll to 1:06:24 for U.S. ladies predictions

In the subsequent pairs discusson, I wonder who is TJ, the white rapper?

 

[Frau Muller]

Aftershocks, that’s an old show, from two Mondays ago. The very latest This & That is this one, from Jan 14. Czisny & Meissner are the guest hosts, along with DL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc5ck7VikfE

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Cross-posting from U.S. ladies thread:

TSL Tonya & Nancy gems, plus Elaine Zayak's thoughts on the Zayak rule, which DL and Doug Haw pooh-pooh out of hand. DL's disdain for Zayak's on-ice look is a bit of pwetty princess-mode snobbery. Doug Haw points out how Zayak improved aesthetically. Plus, there are U.S. Nationals ladies predictions. DL & Haw have already anointed Alyssa Liu:
https://youtu.be/OkhmL2t0AXM?t=3778 scroll to 1:06:24 for U.S. ladies predictions

In the subsequent pairs discusson, I wonder who is TJ, the white rapper?

TJ Nyman. He posts clips of his songs on Instagram.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I've watched Elaine's free skate from the 1980/1981 season many times. Elaine wasn't just a jumper.

She was a complete skater, who, if she competed now, would easily satisfy the requirements demands of IJS and PCS.

Her transitions between elements were strong, and she never took the easy road regarding spins, footwork, or linking elements, either.

 

[skatfan]

Coughin story just got pretty serious with interim suspension from Safesport, USFSA, USOC, etc. Nobody was even aware of this issue until TSL talked about it on their show. That led to the Christine Brennan article, and I’m guessing others came forward after that publicity.

That’s the high of TSL. The low for me was definitely the Starr Andrews coverage. It had racist tones, and in a sport where there are very few African-American athletes, and with a young skater -yikes! And hey, us white folks can no longer get away with the “I didn’t intend it that way!” defense.

TSL keeps it interesting.

 

[Sparks]

Coughin story just got pretty serious with interim suspension from Safesport, USFSA, USOC, etc. Nobody was even aware of this issue until TSL talked about it on their show. That led to the Christine Brennan article, and I’m guessing others came forward after that publicity.

That’s the high of TSL. The low for me was definitely the Starr Andrews coverage. It had racist tones, and in a sport where there are very few African-American athletes, and with a young skater -yikes! And hey, us white folks can no longer get away with the “I didn’t intent it that way!” defense.

TSL keeps it interesting.

To be fair. I and many other people heard about this before TSL talked about it.

 

[skatfan]

To be fair. I and many other people heard about this before TSL talked about it.

Ok, but had any public forum discussed it? I’m curious.

 

[Willin]

@Sparks The Coughlin thing or the Starr Andrews thing? No one I knew knew anything about the Coughlin thing, but I did hear racist stuff about Starr before from some very old skating fans sitting near me at Nationals...

 

[Debbie S]

Nobody was even aware of this issue until TSL talked about it on their show.

To be fair. I and many other people heard about this before TSL talked about it.

Yes, the "interim restriction" was posted on the SafeSport website. I saw it being discussed, I think many people in the skating world knew about it for a while before TSL reported it (Dave could have heard about it from someone or he could have gone to the SafeSport website). It was public info. Nothing was posted on the USFS website, though, at least not the page I looked at, but the suspension is now listed.

 

[skatfan]

Yes, the "interim restriction" was posted on the SafeSport website. I saw it being discussed, I think many people in the skating world knew about it for a while before TSL reported it (Dave could have heard about it from someone or he could have gone to the SafeSport website). It was public info. Nothing was posted on the USFS website, though, at least not the page I looked at, but the suspension is now listed.

So it was discussed privately or on social media publicly? Just because it’s posted on Safesport doesn’t mean it is generally known. I hadn’t seen any public acknowledgement until TSL talked about it. It was within a day or two after that show that Coughlin resigned from his Brand Ambassador role with John Wilson so I wonder how wide the conversations were before that.

 

[bardtoob]

TSL Tonya & Nancy gems, plus Elaine Zayak's thoughts on the Zayak rule, which DL and Doug Haw pooh-pooh out of hand. DL's disdain for Zayak's on-ice look is a bit of pwetty princess-mode snobbery. Doug Haw points out how Zayak improved aesthetically.

So DL said stuff about Elaine that he didn't or wouldn't say to her face. What a jerk!

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I've watched Elaine's free skate from the 1980/1981 season many times. Elaine wasn't just a jumper.

She was a complete skater, who, if she competed now, would easily satisfy the requirements demands of IJS and PCS.

Her transitions between elements were strong, and she never took the easy road regarding spins, footwork, or linking elements, either.

So DL said stuff about Elaine that he didn't or wouldn't say to her face. What a jerk!

No wonder so many of the athletes he has interviewed want nothing more to do with him.

Apparently, Lease also has a reputation for back-stabbing close friends, and cutting them out of his life when they no longer serve his ego.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Idk I think the reason I see Dave as different from Christine Brennan or Phil Hersh is that he’s said some rather controversial things about race - particularly about Starr Andrews and her programs this year. And while “white girl” is a phrase (actually, it’s a variation of “basic white b***h”), I still think it can be construed as racist. Just because something’s a joke on the internet or among the population the joke’s about doesn’t mean it’s not a little bit racist. Yes, I take it in stride (because I got the stereotype) but my mom was pretty offended when she heard someone call me that. And let’s be honest, maybe most of TSL’s audience is my age and not my mom’s so they’d get the joke, but that doesn’t make it okay.

While I can’t remember any particular things they’ve said that I found sexist, I know others have found some of their statements sexist.

You can’t be racist against a white person in the United States, and that phrase is not racist anyway. You can be bigoted, and perhaps some sensitive people may say that phrase is bigoted, but racist? No.

 

[Lanie]

That's one of the dumbest things I've read on here in a long time.

Dave's just a moron who likes his cronies and the sound of his own voice. He's a legend in his own mind.

 

[Debbie S]

It was within a day or two after that show that Coughlin resigned from his Brand Ambassador role with John Wilson so I wonder how wide the conversations were before that.

I wouldn't automatically assume the resignation and show are connected. The interim restriction likely prevented John from attending Nats (and other USFS events) in an official capacity. His job for Wilson likely included him staffing their booth at Nats. If he couldn't fulfill those duties, it makes sense that he resigned several weeks before the event. USFS would have seen him there and known what was going on, regardless of what the general public heard from Dave and Christine.

 

[rhapsody]

I wouldn't automatically assume the resignation and show are connected. The interim restriction likely prevented John from attending Nats (and other USFS events) in an official capacity. His job for Wilson likely included him staffing their booth at Nats. If he couldn't fulfill those duties, it makes sense that he resigned several weeks before the event. USFS would have seen him there and known what was going on, regardless of what the general public heard from Dave and Christine.

In light of what's been happening with USAG the past couple of years, I think it was indeed Christine's article (most likely tipped off by DL) that got the USFS to take action. These organizations have a tendency to ignore facts and people in order to sweep things under the rug until a major news source puts them in the limelight and forces them to do something. I don't know exactly what the interim restriction from SafeSport entailed (Christine wrote about it on Jan 7/he was restricted since Dec 17), but John was not prevented from attending nationals until the USFS banned him yesterday afternoon (Jan 17). Two days after the restriction was written about (Jan 9), he was "upgraded" to a full on interim suspension because other victims had also come forward. I would hazard a guess that the USFS did nothing at the start hoping this would blow over but eventually realized this wasn't something that would just go away. Otherwise, why did they not mention it in article or publish it on their list of banned coaches until a month after he was restricted? A transparent organization would do so immediately. This lack of transparency is typical and it shows that just like USAG, the USFS is motivated by backlash and will only carry out reactionary responses once it is forced to do so.

Keep in mind that this is the same organization that ignored Richard Callahan's sexual assault allegations for decades because he switched to primarily coaching women so he was no longer a threat to boys. Or their lack of action against Morozov who primarily coaches in Hackensack. So I really don't have faith that the USFS would've done the right thing if there wasn't a spotlight on this issue.

 

[Debbie S]

I don't know exactly what the interim restriction from SafeSport entailed (Jan 9), but John was not prevented from attending nationals until the USFS prevented him from doing so yesterday afternoon (Jan 17).

You're right, it's not clear what the interim restriction entailed but we don't know that John wasn't prevented from attending Nats as a spokesperson for a vendor. Or at the very least, the optics wouldn't have been good; Wilson may have requested John not attend until the matter was resolved. For the sake of accuracy, the notice of his restriction was posted on the SafeSport website in mid-Dec.