American Figure Skater Crashes Headfirst Into The Ice, Referee Allows Her To Continue

It's horrible for viewers to sit through yet we want to laud athletes who compete in spite of pain as somewhat heroic.

Yes, when what they really doing might be foolhardy. FS are trained to get up when they fall and continue the program. I would think they would do so automatically providing that they could continue. They wouldn't stop and ask themselves 'should I keep going'? They would just keep going, unless injury prevent them from doing so.

And competing in pain is part of being a competitive athlete - pain from both injury and the sport itself. But in the case of injury, an athlete should have the clearance of a doctor - especially a head injury. Which won't happen when an injury occurs during competition and the athlete just keeps on going.
 
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Interesting discussion from concussion expert on recent pro hockey player's recent hit and allowing to continue to play, as well as where on-the-spot concussion testing falls short, and why athletes should not make the call of whether to continue.
https://winnipegsun.com/sports/hock...ched-it-with-byfuglien-says-concussion-expert


“Stunned and wobbly: Those two symptoms are concussion. If you are stunned and you are wobbly, you are concussed. Period.”
 
Yes, when what they really doing might be foolhardy. FS are trained to get up when they fall and continue the program. I would think they would do so automatically providing that they could continue. They wouldn't stop and ask themselves 'should I keep going'? They would just keep going, unless injury prevent them from doing so.

And competing in pain is part of being a competitive athlete - pain from both injury and the sport itself. But in the case of injury, an athlete should have the clearance of a doctor - especially a head injury. Which won't happen when an injury occurs during competition and the athlete just keeps on going.

That's why it really shook me when Vincent Zhou was interviewed a while back and mentioned as well as a coach and choreographer, he had a medical team on board as well. I was like...WTF?

If a sport gets to the point where it is a danger to your physical health, and Vincent is a skater who has known injury, you almost want give skaters the keys to a time machine to show them what they could be like ten or fifteen years after they retire.

Are the short - term goals worth the long term risks?
 
The video now has 372,000 views! That's higher than any other skater that his weekend! It's probably gone viral!

Well the good news about this attention is ISU will have to address this. I hope they make some emergency decision to protect skaters at times like this.

That video is now up to 860,000 views. Another is over 200,000! That means over 1 million views total. I really hope ISU takes action.
 
This is such a tough subject all the way around because there are so many elements to it.

First and foremost, YES, the referee absolutely should have blown the whistle on this. That aside, I have to echo the sentiments of those who have reiterated that coaches cannot stop a program, and coaches cannot easily get to the judging panel in an arena set up such as this. Also, remember, there is a USFS team leader behind the boards as well. Given how medical was at the ready when they got off the ice, with a neck brace, makes me think that the coaches and team leader knew there was a potential injury (fairly evident) and were ready to treat.

Next, could/should C&L have stopped. Yes, likely they should have. That said, athletes are taught to finish their programs no matter what. Obviously this doesn't mean finish the program if you've just sustained a concussion, but again, you have to take into consideration adrenaline, competitive drive, etc. It's not so black and white. Very different situation, but Gordeva & Grinkov has an incident in the late 80's/early 90's where Sergei's strap holding his pants under his boot came undone and the ref blew the whistle and they didn't stop. The ref even had the music stopped and they still went on to finish the program.

When it comes to the rules, that's also tough. There is a lot of gray. You would hope that refs use common sense. Common sense was not used here. That said, you're always going to have people make mistakes. I can't think of another scenario where there was a medical issue such as this where the program wasn't stopped.

With all that said. Wishing Ashley a very speedy recovery, and hoping that their team and USFS will continue to closely monitor the injury as concussions are a tricky thing.
 
That's why it really shook me when Vincent Zhou was interviewed a while back and mentioned as well as a coach and choreographer, he had a medical team on board as well. I was like...WTF?

If a sport gets to the point where it is a danger to your physical health, and Vincent is a skater who has known injury, you almost want give skaters the keys to a time machine to show them what they could be like ten or fifteen years after they retire.

Are the short - term goals worth the long term risks?

Having a medical team is a good thing! Most skaters who skate through their teens have on going injuries. It doesn’t mean they will be crippled later in life. Having a doctor, physiotherapist, massage therapist, professional trainer, etc, as part of the team is a good thing. They can help prevent injuries as well as react quickly to make sure any injuries get proper treatment right away.

Almost every sport is a danger to your physical health. I don’t understand why this seems like it shocks you.
 
That's why it really shook me when Vincent Zhou was interviewed a while back and mentioned as well as a coach and choreographer, he had a medical team on board as well. I was like...WTF?

If a sport gets to the point where it is a danger to your physical health, and Vincent is a skater who has known injury, you almost want give skaters the keys to a time machine to show them what they could be like ten or fifteen years after they retire.

Are the short - term goals worth the long term risks?
As @mag said, it's a good thing to have a medical team on your side. In fact, most sports teams (college and professional) in the US have some sort of medical team on staff composed of sports medicine doctors, athletic trainers, and PTs. Even if you're not injured it's great to have a team like that focusing on injury prevention and proper conditioning for your sport.

For Olympic sports each national federation generally has some sort of team. I know USFSA has a team of physical therapists and athletic trainers, but they're generally only present for things like training camps and international competitions. I was a bit surprised to see that they weren't at Nationals last year, unless they got rid of the program? (I know two people who worked with that team, so I know it existed at one point).

As for Vincent, as Ashley Wagner mentioned in her commentary in regards to Tarah Kayne, the USOTC has a whole host of sports medicine professionals on staff to work with top athletes in Olympic sports. Idk if he would have to pay for it or if the visits are sponsored by the USOC, but in Colorado Springs Vincent has access to some of the best in the business. Why shouldn't he take advantage of their help if he has the ability to?
 
The Cains posted video of C/L's homecoming at DFW Airport.
Thank you for posting this. Ashley does not look like she is "dazed" or hurting. I think she deserves an appreciation for her strength and determination, and she, her family, federation and country should be proud of her for how she handled the fall and the rest of the programme.
 
Just now seeing this and am pretty horrified about it. I agree with everyone about the concern for concussion and TBI, and I think the ISU and national skating federations have some catching up to do compared to other sports in being educated about concussions. However, I'm even more concerned about the potential for spinal cord injury in cases like this one - she should have left the ice on a backboard, not allowed to sit up, let alone finish the program. I'm reminded of that fall at Skate America that one year (Totmianina and Marinin I think), where he was about to pick her up in a similar way and was only stopped by audience members shouting at him not to move her. IMO all skaters at all levels should have some basic awareness of what to do if there's a possible head/spine injury in the rink, but especially pair or dance partners where there's a fairly significant risk of one partner being dropped on the head. And certainly all referees need to have this knowledge and be ready to blow the whistle to stop the skater from moving if there's any question about it. That type of fall is the most common cause of cervical spinal cord injuries - axial loading of the spine through the top of the head causing hyperflexion of the neck. I'm relieved she's ok, at least on that front. IMO this should be a wake-up call for the ISU because there will be a next time and they may not always be so lucky.

As for the idea that a 24 yo athlete "knows her body" and "nobody should stop her" if she thinks she's able to continue, I see kids in the ER all the time who have no idea where they are or what's happening thanks to a severe concussion, and yet are spitting mad that they were removed from the game. Almost all athletes want to continue, but it's often part of the concussion that they don't even get that there's anything wrong. You can't rely on them to tell you they need to stop.
 
I don't think so... Surely a 24-year old elite athlete knows her body and self and if she can get up, move and continue to skate, nobody should stop her.

Nobody stopped Hanyu in the last GP event and he won Gold; nobody stopped Zhang Dana and Zhang Hao, to skate with an injury and they won Olympic Silver.. and now live happily ever after.. :D

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/knapp...had-a-silver-lining-2541394.php#photo-2675975
An injury to the head that causes a person to be dazed means they can't think straight - meaning, they might not be able to think through the situation and make the best decision.
Pairs should talk about the possibility ahead of time and have a plan.
 
Tinami, I can't find your post re Dan Zhang, but it's not a comparable situation because she didn't fall on her head. Her legs splayed out at an unnatural angle, but it obviously looked worse than it was because she was able to get up and continue.
 
Thank you for posting this. Ashley does not look like she is "dazed" or hurting. I think she deserves an appreciation for her strength and determination, and she, her family, federation and country should be proud of her for how she handled the fall and the rest of the programme.

Um-----isn't this one or two days and lots of pain pills later?
 
I had a really serious concussion about 5.5 years ago. I was kicked in the skull by my horse and then fough falling in the mud and had a second impact from whiplash (probably more serious for my brain). I never lost consciousness but the ER doctor misdiagnosed it and sent me to work the next day with directions to follow up with my primary care in a week. His office staff wasn’t overly concerned either since ER said I was fine. After 5 days, I couldn’t form sentences and by my follow up appointment, I could barely talk. All scans had been clean.

The initial 24-48 hours is critical, but symptoms can take a week to surface. Thankfully after showing up at work that first day, my boss decided she’d rather I not work (my face was black and blue and I was in a crazy amount of pain) so I wasn’t stressing my brain too much. But, I ended up out of work for a couple weeks, dealt with post concussive syndrome from a good year plus, and still lose words when stressed and tired. I’m sure my migraines are worse from concussions. I had another concussion 2 years ago and had no symptoms other than anxiety, frustration, and increased debilitating headaches which started 10 days after the fall. For this concussion, I never hit my head, but experienced whiplash. It was my doctor that finally put 2 and 2 together as I had mentioned the fall the day after it happened. A month later, concussion was diagnosed and we adjusted my work schedule to give my brain a rest and it helped some.

Anyway, this is all to say symptoms show up at different times. I’m terrified that if you’re clear after 24-48 hours, you can be released to play. Most of my symptoms haven’t even started by that point. Concussions are scary, scary things. My short term memory comes and goes sometimes and it stresses me out so much. It’s all related to concussions. At 33, I’m too young to otherwise have memory loss.


I'm so sorry this happened to you. I was in a nasty collision on the ice, where I also did not hit my head, but had such severe whiplash that it gave me a concussion. I had the migraines, light sensitivity and ringing in my ears for months.
 
I'm gobsmacked, and so concerned for Ashley's health and safety. For goodness sakes, what's going on!?

This is the first I've heard about this. I haven't seen any videos yet. But lest we remember what happened to the actor Natasha Richardson (of the famous acting family -- her husband is Liam Neeson). Natasha fell and hit her head while taking skiing lessons, on a ski trip with her sons -- her husband was not there. She begged off being taken to the hospital because she said she felt fine. After going back to her hotel room, she eventually lapsed into a coma and died a few days later (due to internal bleeding).

Without knowing much about what happened to Ashley, I would hope she has been thoroughly checked out and monitored. If she was at all rendered unconscious or even if she wasn't, surely there is the specter of her experiencing concussion symptoms.

My friend’s wife was out for a walk. She tripped, fell, and hit her head. She got up and was dizzy, but insisted she was fine.

Four hours later she was dead. Massive head injury and a brain bleed. But she thought she was fine and refused to get checked, so I guess that’s okay?

The above sounds similar to what happened to Natasha Richardson.

While thankfully, serious falls in pair skating apparently are rare, there have been some scary instances. In September 1999, a head injury sustained on the ice ended the career of J. Paul Binnebose (a former pairs skater with Laura Handy). He suffered a brain injury, underwent surgery and later suffered facial paralysis as a direct result of the injury. Eventually, he returned to the ice as a teacher. Here's more information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Paul_Binnebose
And a general discussion about head injuries, from 2015: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?56064-Head-Injuries-and-Figure-Skating
 
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After seeing the video of Ashley fp fall from the lift, I'm actually concerned about the fall she had earlier in the program on a jump. She stumbled on the landing and fell in such a way that her neck and head jerked back and forth (in a whiplash motion). However, she had fallen on her side, and had not hit her head. But that earlier jerking motion combined with the later smack to her head is surely not a good combination. I would imagine that both incidents shook her up.

The fact that she looked dazed, but still uppermost in her mind was completing the performance speaks volumes. Even in the kiss 'n cry, she seemed more concerned over the score. I understand the dilemma. It has to be truly disappointing for them because they are goal-driven. IMO, Ashley's earlier fall may have distressed both of them to the point where they experienced nerves, slight distraction and subsequent unsteadiness on the last lift. The other part of this is the fact of needing to develop more complicated lifts in order to be competitive this season. But hitting one's head should immediately set off alarm bells for everyone, especially when she appeared knocked out and didn't immediately rise to her feet.

The fortunate thing is that it looks like it wasn't an immediately direct fall from a huge height at great speed. Ashley appeared to be in a dismount, but not in control of the dismount. In fact, she may have been shaken up as I said from the previous fall where her head and neck jerked back and forth, and thus on this lift dismount, she might have been slightly dizzy. As well, Timothy was not in control of the dismount either. But again, it appears that Ashley was sliding down, and then her head dropped to the ice, but not in as bad a way as it could have been. Any hit to the head is bad, but if she'd fallen from a huge height at great speed, that would have had much worse consequences.
 
On the topic of concussions in skating, here's an essay by Julianne Séguin about her split with Bilodeau and her concussion issues (after 3 concussions in less than a year): https://ici.radio-canada.ca/sports/...deau-separation-olympiques-pyeongchang-podium

A relevant paragraph (my translation):
I took risks that I wouldn’t have taken if it wasn’t a pre-Olympic year. I remember a competition in November 2017 in Moscow. My vision was blurred and I had a hard time reading the dosage on my medicine bottle. Once I got to the rink, with the lights and the white ice, I was dizzy and nauseous. I don’t know how I managed to skate but I did.

Skaters are trained to push their bodies, to skate through injuries. But what about their long-term health?
 
On the topic of concussions in skating, here's an essay by Julianne Séguin about her split with Bilodeau and her concussion issues (after 3 concussions in less than a year): https://ici.radio-canada.ca/sports/...deau-separation-olympiques-pyeongchang-podium

A relevant paragraph (my translation):


Skaters are trained to push their bodies, to skate through injuries. But what about their long-term health?

That’s horrifying. I can’t read the rest of the interview but I’m truly glad she’s retired.
 
Ashley appeared to be in a dismount, but not in control of the dismount. In fact, she may have been shaken up as I said from the previous fall where her head and neck jerked back and forth, and thus on this lift dismount, she might have been slightly dizzy. As well, Timothy was not in control of the dismount either.

A prescription for disaster.

But determining where to draw the line is a tricky thing. One the one hand, falling and strain on the body is just a part of FS. Lady pair skaters are especially at risk, but they sure do love to fly.

But OTOH, the risk of head and neck injuries has to be taken very seriously.
 
Maybe I've misunderstood, but I don't think Julianne is retiring. I think she's just taking a break.
I read the interview. It is very clear that she is not retiring if she can help it. She has started training again and will actively seek a new partner starting in January. She wants to go to the Beijing Olympics, but she knows it may not work out.

It's a touching interview. She still has no idea why Charlie ended their partnership other than that he did say he felt the two of them had hit their limit. She disagrees but is finally at peace with things.

Apart from talking about how the concussions affected her/their training for the Olympics, they weren't her main focus here. She's a top ten Olympian and wants to get back there and do better. Girl's tough!
 
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I read the interview. It is very clear that she is not retiring if she can help it. She has started trining again and will actively seek a new partner starting in January. She wants to go to the Beijing Olympics, but she knows it may not work out.

It's a touching interview. She still has no idea why Charlie ended their partnership other than that he did say he felt the two of them had hit their limit. She disagrees but is finally at peace with things.

Apart from talking about how the concussions affected her/their training for the Olympics, they weren't her main focus here. She's a top ten Olympian and wants to get back there and do better. Girl's tough!

I can understand why she was puzzled about him calling things off because they hit a limit. They were 9th overall at the Olympics and five of the pairs ahead of them are not competing this fall. Wishing them both the best though!
 
That’s horrifying. I can’t read the rest of the interview but I’m truly glad she’s retired.

She has not retired. She was devastated by Charlie deciding to split and took a few months to deal with it. She is now back on the ice and will start to train b4 looking for a partner.
 
That’s horrifying. I can’t read the rest of the interview but I’m truly glad she’s retired.
Maybe I've misunderstood, but I don't think Julianne is retiring. I think she's just taking a break.

In the article posted, she says that she started training again a few weeks ago and wants to start doing tryouts in January. I hope that the break allowed her to get fully healthy. If that is the case, while I agree with her that partners like Charlie don't come along every day, I can think of at least one potentially good option for her (Francois Boudreau-Audet).
 
I can understand why she was puzzled about him calling things off because they hit a limit. They were 9th overall at the Olympics and five of the pairs ahead of them are not competing this fall. Wishing them both the best though!
The only thing I can think of is that he thought she would always be having issues with her health that would limit them.
 
I don't know anything about their particular situation, and not to hijack the C&L thread, but I reaching their limit can include much more than just their limit in terms of placement/standing. It could be her health, it could be their limit in an interpersonal way, their training and/or coaching objectives and plans, etc. Either way, it's a shame - I liked them as a team, but certainly wish them both well.
 
I read the interview. It is very clear that she is not retiring if she can help it. She has started trining again and will actively seek a new partner starting in January. She wants to go to the Beijing Olympics, but she knows it may not work out.

It's a touching interview. She still has no idea why Charlie ended their partnership other than that he did say he felt the two of them had hit their limit. She disagrees but is finally at peace with things.

Apart from talking about how the concussions affected her/their training for the Olympics, they weren't her main focus here. She's a top ten Olympian and wants to get back there and do better. Girl's tough!
Hate to be a Luddite........but where did you find the English.
 

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