The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[GreenGan]

Do you really think the power was in the tech panel last season ? PCS were there too, but I guess the difference were with 2 point max between teams so maybe it was not enough. Let's see how this will be judge at the end of the season, the judges are experiencing this new system too.
But I like the idea of PCS being a pourcentage of the BV, like in single. Maybe next year !

 

[Dobre]

Now, the power balance has been equalized somewhat or a bit more balanced towards the judges.

What makes you think it's been equalized? The PCS half of the scoring was always in the judges' power already and GOE as well? We were finally getting to the point where mutually top teams were changing placements based on actual performance. Yes, and based on calls, which for sure we didn't always agree with; but still, placements were changing based on the execution of the elements. I feel like it took so many years to get to that point. And now the balance is out of balance in the judges' direction. Which may please some people for now; but when the ___ hits the fan--which it always does in heated dance competition sooner or later--how are the judges going to validate +4 for a Level 1 anything?

It just seems obvious to me that they can't watch everything and need more information.

 

[VGThuy]

GOE/PCS was there for the top two teams to differentiate them from the rest, but for all the teams in contention for the bronze, the tech panel was a big deal. Of course if you were on the higher side of PCS and GOE than you had more breathing room to get that bronze medal.

What makes you think it's been equalized? The PCS half of the scoring was always in the judges' power already and GOE as well? We were finally getting to the point where mutually top teams were changing placements based on actual performance. Yes, and based on calls, which for sure we didn't always agree with; but still, placements were changing based on the execution of the elements. I feel like it took so many years to get to that point. And now the balance is out of balance in the judges' direction. Which may please some people for now; but when the ___ hits the fan--which it always does in heated dance competition sooner or later--how are the judges going to validate +4 for a Level 1 anything?

It just seems obvious to me that they can't watch everything and need more information.

Because the judges were playing games and it got to the point where PCS was so close among a big group of the teams. GOE differentials made a difference as well, but that was getting close too. So Level calls became determinant of where teams ended up. Look at the 2017 Worlds SD where the Shibs levels determined their fifth place standing despite higher PCS.

 

[Dobre]

GOE/PCS was there for the top two teams to differentiate them from the rest, but for all the teams in contention for the bronze, the tech panel was a big deal.

But how amazing! I mean to think that we had so many teams medal over the past four years. And move down in the standings and back up! I know we can all think of specific competitions when our favorites lost out and we thought it was unfair and wanted to strangle the caller. And we can all think of events in which a particular team scored particularly high with a representative from their country on the tech panel. But we can also think of so many competitions in which the performances led us right to the results we wound up with. So many times when a botched element under pressure made the difference. And so many times when a low score in the SD was just a stepping stone to strong FD and an overall climb in the standings. It wasn't like that for decades. I think you have to look at the big picture, and I really think most people in the sport today must want that also. With the rule changes, lots of good things are happening. But of course not everything is good, and adjustments will have to be made. So I like this conversation because we are starting to have some quality information about how the new system is working in practice.

You asked about those teams that have been earning the levels. Well, at one time those teams were Papadakis & Cizeron and the Shibs. And Weaver & Poje and Davis & White and Virtue & Moir. And only two years ago Hubbell & Donohue. The levels are how most of the teams on top today broke through.

The top teams right now. They can earn those levels. Maybe not all of them. Maybe some of the young up & comers prove they are even better. But if pressed, most of them will get to work and make the technical changes they are capable of. When push comes to shove, all those teams like to know their actual execution & performance makes a difference.

 

[chameleonster]

Perhaps there could be some kind of factoring, where a +5 for a level 1 step sequence automatically gets downgraded, and you don't get the full unfactored +5 unless you get a level 4. Wouldn't require the judges to have to split their attention or revise their scores after the tech panel has finished going over things.

 

[starrynight]

The levels will still matter when we have top teams with similar GOE reputation going against each other.

But I would say it is unlikely now that a situation like Papadakis/Cizeron's 2016-2017 season could be repeated. For example, at Europeans, getting level 3 and level 2 on the step sequences put them in third because of the weight of the levels on the elements. Doubt we would see that under the new system of GOE because I would say their GOE would easily make up the difference.

 

[MarieM]

Well we are back to using GOEs to trick the places. Russia must be so so pleased. They now have a way to fix it back.

 

[firstflight]

The panel here rewarded G/P with 13 GOE marks of +5-- the highest amount by quite a margin so far this season.
S/K received 7.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember when Tchaikovskaya complained about levels and how Russian teams fell prey to callers even when the steps were done correctly. Well, that may not be a problem anymore.

 

[firstflight]

To discuss a bit further about the haul of +5 GOE's rewarded to Gilles/Poirier-- the element that had the most +5's was the last element in the program, the stationary lift (Level 4). Here are the judges' marks for that element:
+5 +5 +5 +5 +4 +5 +4 +5 +4

No other single element in any other performance has been evaluated this way this season so far. I've re-watched the program multiple times, so have seen that one element multiple times too. You all may totally disagree with me, but I'm not mad at that single element being the exemplar so far for what +4/+5 GOE's should be reserved for.

 

[taz'smum]

The scoring in North American events tends to be real. Scoring in Europe is totally fake. But on the other hand with p/c getting 207 with goe maximum at 3 with goe at 5 they will get like over 210

So Caseyedwards as you declare here that the scoring in North American events is totally real, we can conclude that the Skate Canada GP has been marked realistically.

So this kinda blows your logic out of the water, when you have declared so vocally and so many times, that all Russian teams are doomed unless they move immediately to Montreal and Marie-France.

 

[Bigbird]

So all three teams were basically tied? What does that mean exactly? S/K has come closer to the pack in the hunt, check, G/P were shaky yet they get the same score? H/D were tired but still the class of the field with the exception of that long lift, but still the same score? So if you're scoring system can't separate the sheeps from the goats and can't really be understood, what's the point? Based on last years scoring system all three of them would have gotten a score of around 110. Is that what we really saw? Well unto the next event!

 

[taz'smum]

I agree Bigbird, the new GOE scoring is working for singles and pairs, but is not working at all for ice dance.

Worlds will be a bloodbath, and the winner will most likely depend on who is judging rather than what is put on the ice.
Low levels in elements can now be 'fixed' with a high GOE. It is a return to the old 6 system IMO.

Though on a more positive note, this result today has removed the predictability of Ice Dance and has made it more interesting!

 

[Bigbird]

I agree Bigbird, the new GOE scoring is working for singles and pairs, but is not working at all for ice dance.

Worlds will be a bloodbath, and the winner will most likely depend on who is judging rather than what is put on the ice.
Low levels in elements can now be 'fixed' with a high GOE. It is a return to the old 6 system IMO.

Though on a more positive note, this result today has removed the predictability of Ice Dance and has made it more interesting!

I just might be too scared for that one. But hey it's time for a good TAT fix, when do S/B have their first showing, next weekend? That, my dears will be epic. Hahaha....

 

[casken]

So if you're scoring system can't separate the sheeps from the goats and can't really be understood, what's the point?

You've just described the majority of ice dance results the last few years. Minus P&C and V&M, you have a lot of teams that have their own strengths weakness that usually score relatively close to each other depending on the day, without any really way to separate them.

 

[taz'smum]

I just might be too scared for that one. But hey it's time for a good TAT fix, when do S/B have their first showing, next weekend? That, my dears will be epic. Hahaha....

S/B should win in Finland and in Russia, so are pretty much locks for the final.
However, how they are marked will be indicative of how they will fare in a head to head with S/K, so their marks are likely be more interesting than the result of the competition.

 

[Dobre]

Current stream of consciousness:

I am totally on "the dark side" and rooting for Stepanova & Bukin to make the podium this season. But also I cannot root against Weaver & Poje and that mature fabulous RD so I must root for them on the podium. But, ugh, I am very torn when it comes to Hubbell & Donohue because I think this FD so doesn't cut it, but we need the three U.S. dance spots because I do not think I can sit through next season and deal with the stress if the Shibs come back and there are only two spots, plus also there is the huge awesome battle going on with all mini-U.S. dance teams whose spirits must not be crushed before their season has already begun and I so do not trust Chock & Bates's twizzles and, oh yes, well good for Sinitsina & Katsalapov but mostly I wanted them to skate well here so Hubbell & Donohue would consider a new FD and I am afraid that S&K have not quite managed to be threatening enough, and really, who is ever petrified by a super high score for a Canadian team at Skate Canada, and--oh yes--well, I am rooting for Stepanova & Bukin and Weaver & Poje anyway.

 

[Wyliefan]

^What ice dance does to our brains.

 

[Spun Silver]

Current stream of consciousness:

I am totally on "the dark side" and rooting for Stepanova & Bukin to make the podium this season. But also I cannot root against Weaver & Poje and that mature fabulous RD so I must root for them on the podium. But, ugh, I am very torn when it comes to Hubbell & Donohue because I think this FD so doesn't cut it, but we need the three U.S. dance spots because I do not think I can sit through next season and deal with the stress if the Shibs come back and there are only two spots, plus also there is the huge awesome battle going on with all mini-U.S. dance teams whose spirits must not be crushed before their season has already begun and I so do not trust Chock & Bates's twizzles and, oh yes, well good for Sinitsina & Katsalapov but mostly I wanted them to skate well here so Hubbell & Donohue would consider a new FD and I am afraid that S&K have not quite managed to be threatening enough, and really, who is ever petrified by a super high score for a Canadian team at Skate Canada, and--oh yes--well, I am rooting for Stepanova & Bukin and Weaver & Poje anyway.

Ah, you speak for me.

 

[lauravvv]

So all three teams were basically tied? What does that mean exactly? S/K has come closer to the pack in the hunt, check, G/P were shaky yet they get the same score? H/D were tired but still the class of the field with the exception of that long lift, but still the same score? So if you're scoring system can't separate the sheeps from the goats and can't really be understood, what's the point? Based on last years scoring system all three of them would have gotten a score of around 110. Is that what we really saw? Well unto the next event!

G/P were not shaky in the FD - not even on one element. They got the highest technical score. H/D probably were tired indeed - you said it yourself, they got lower levels and a lift deduction, so, that's why, despite being the class of the field, they got the score that they got. S/K just skated well, still got the lowest technical score of the three because of levels, but, understandably, got higher PCS than G/P and no lift deduction. It all leveled out indeed.

 

[Katha]

I have thoughts on the SC dance event LOL.

H/D are great skaters, but IMO that FD does absolutely nothing for them. I might be biased, since apart from A&P's R+J, I'm never convinced by dancers trying to do that theme. Be it modern or classical, it almost never works for me. This is no exception, it's weirdly tepid IMO. They could do something more fierce and powerful, it would probably suit Madison in particular quite well.

SinKats have skated very well here and it's obvious they've put in the work in the off-season and are looking well prepared. Zhulin has given them a great RD and 3/4 of a great FD. I understand the idea to do something more dynamic at the end of the FD, but for my taste it gets too flaily and unstructured at the end. If they could add more detail in that last section, just as they have in the slower part, that would make the program even better IMO. Other than that, both their programs suit them.

G/P's FD is beautiful. The costumes are perfect, they express the theme well without getting overly and embarassingly literal. Personally, I think the original Don McLean version of the song is superior. But I understand why the richer orchestration of that version might work better for an ice dance program.

 

[caseyedwards]

So Caseyedwards as you declare here that the scoring in North American events is totally real, we can conclude that the Skate Canada GP has been marked realistically.

So this kinda blows your logic out of the water, when you have declared so vocally and so many times, that all Russian teams are doomed unless they move immediately to Montreal and Marie-France.

Worlds is the test! Or a medal or appearance at a gpf. We will see!

 

[puglover]

It is going to be very interesting to see how Weaver/Poje fare with not skating in the grand prix. I know they did score very well at the challenge but they are not getting feedback on what they need to improve on from international panels. Sometimes I feel somewhat bored by programs by the time Worlds comes along so they will have the benefit of freshness but this is an interesting year to take this break with all the changes and unpredictability that seems to be happening.

 

[taz'smum]

Worlds is the test! Or a medal or appearance at a gpf. We will see!

Just admit you are wrong, it is easier !

 

[VGThuy]

My three fave FDs so far and by far are:

1) Gilles/Poirier
2) Guignard/Fabbri
3) Stepanova/Bukin (this may be number 2 actually given how musical and on-beat it totally is).

Guignard/Fabbri and Stepanova/Bukin's FDs feel like true dance routines that I can definitely see professional dancers doing with some great ice skating. That's how good G/F and S/B are here with the music and choreography. Gilles/Poirier just have a masterpiece and it's something that could only come from ice dancing.

 

[Madison25]

I hope that Stepanova/Bukin would be judged properly this season. Yes, they have a good free dance, I really like the music and the movements, but Stepanova is lagging behind when it comes to skating skills.... and good skating skills should be a prerequiste for any win in ice dance. I even doubt that she is able to hit the key points in the patterns....

 

[Peepsquick]

I hope that Stepanova/Bukin would be judged properly this season. Yes, they have a good free dance, I really like the music and the movements, but Stepanova is lagging behind when it comes to skating skills.... and good skating skills should be a prerequiste for any win in ice dance. I even doubt that she is able to hit the key points in the patterns....

Is she really that bad?!

 

[Madison25]

Is she really that bad?!

Very bad, she doesn't even bend her knees when she skates

 

[Dobre]

S&B had two level 3s at Finlandia for the pattern, which is as good as any of the established teams thus far this season. I do not know if they will be able to break through for the level 4s in the footwork. That is the ceiling I think they need to break through to reach the podium. Not 100% sure we will see level 4s from all the podium teams this season on the footwork as you never know, and the rules have tightened on a lot of things. But Stepanova & Bukin have gotten many patterns. I don't think they've ever had a level 4 footwork sequence.

 

[VGThuy]

My post was more concerned about the actual choreography and musical interpretation. If were to write about top three skilled teams that should be favorites for medals, my list may look differently.