The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Sylvia]

I think someone posted a while ago that the new max scores were something like 91 for the RD and 130 for the FD.

This was the "someone" back in July: https://twitter.com/_David_Molina/status/1019514822256414722

Maximum scores for Senior Ice Dance this season, based on my personal calculation : RD 91.52 / FD 137.84 / Total 229.36 points

 

[Debbie S]

This was the "someone" back in July: https://twitter.com/_David_Molina/status/1019514822256414722

Thanks! OK, so I was a bit off on the FD score...given the max, I would expect P/C to score over 130, other medalists to score close to 130. (Or maybe with the new GOE scale, we won't see judges pushing the max score.)

 

[starrynight]

Gosh dance is a funny thing. I'm used to it by now, but it does amuse me how we can predict all the scores and placements for the teams years in advance. A bit different to the way everyone holds their breath when singles and pairs take the ice.

Anyway, I hope the judges just don't rush to put marks up to the maximum straight away. Otherwise they will need to keep changing the ice dance scoring through to 2022 so the marks can get higher and higher.

 

[Miloune]

Thanks! OK, so I was a bit off on the FD score...given the max, I would expect P/C to score over 130, other medalists to score close to 130. (Or maybe with the new GOE scale, we won't see judges pushing the max score.)

Tbh I hope we don't reach 135 by April... would be problematic, and boring!

 

[mollymgr]

That's the problem with figure skating scoring. I don't get the +/-3 or +/-5 GOE concept for a subjective sport at all. I mean I get that in theory, they have added additional layers to differentiate the very best. But that's not going to stop people from handing +5 like candy. Some judges are already doing it. For most people, the +3 has now been replaced by +5 in their minds. If they had +10 GOE, it would be the same thing.

 

[starrynight]

From what I can tell, they are mostly using the greater GOE range to punish skaters for mistakes.

 

[cocotaffy]

BTW is there one of those videos to present the Tango pattern this year ? I need to learn to differentiate when each of the two patterns start and finish.

Quoting my own post but I finally did some digging and for those of you who are interested but don't want to bother looking: the description, charts and diagrams of the 2 patterns are very well done here page 59 and 61, basically the last pages of the İSU handbook for the technical panel. Surely everyone's bedside book by now
It's a nice move to have a longer pattern this year. Always a great way to compare teams particularly regarding a lack of extension, precision of footwork and the ability to skate in close hold without having a truck separating the partners' hip.

 

[thvu]

I think what people are missing in regards to ice dance was that under +3 GOE, it was much easier to earn a +3 in accordance to the guidelines due to the “GOE adjustments.” With them, teams were qualifying for +4, +5, but maxing out at +3 quite easily.

Its much harder now to earn the max now, +5, in accordance to today’s guidelines now that GOE is governed by features. Whether judges are applying it correctly is one thing, but the process is much less of a mystery and far more standardized IMO.

 

[VGThuy]

Whether or not we think it's being applied correctly, a -5 to +5 GOE system was needed in ice dance for reasons thvudragon stated. Too many teams were maxing out at +2 to +3 even though some +3s were not equal to others. I also think errors needed to be punished more as well even though with the lady and man being graded individually on some elements now, there is less of a chance of totally discredited elements earning a 0 like there was before. Although I do think it's nice the ISU has allowed more types of lifts to earn level 4 so that we won't have a field of ice dancers who can only achieve level 4 with overly complicated and character-less lifts, some of the level 4 lifts I saw at Classic (especially the curved ones) make me think maybe they should make the requirements a little harder for level 4.

 

[mollymgr]

Like I said, it sounds good in theory. How it plays out remains to be seen.

 

[Dobre]

Top ISU junior scores thus far:

Ushakova & Nekrasov--Current PB: 168.17
Last season's PB: 149.81
Score is up: 18.36

Lajoie & Lagha--Current PB: 166.52
Last season's PB: 150.30
Score is up: 16.22

Nguyen and Kolesnik--Current PB: 161.84
Last season's PB: 125.30
Score is up: 36.54
(Think I should mention that this team had no post season last year and, therefore, their last season's score is from last fall as opposed to those teams that competed at Junior Worlds in March).

Khudaberdieva & Nazarov--Current PB: 159.62
Last season's PB: 133.85
Score is up: 25.77
(Also a team with no post season last year).

Shevchenko & Eremenko--Current PB: 158.70
Last season's PB: 145.85
Score is up: 12.85

Ivanenko & Karpov (No ISU score from last season that I can find).

Shanaeva & Naryzhnyy (No ISU score from last season that I can find).

Gropman & Somerville--Current PB: 148.51
Last season's PB: 127.60
Score is up: 20.91
(Also a team with no post season last year).

Konkina & Vakhnov (No ISU score from last season).

Kuts & Mikhailov (No ISU score from last season that I can find).

Demougeot & Le Mercier--Current PB: 142.96
Last season's PB: 117.60
Score is up: 25.36

Popova & Byelikov--Current PB: 142.29
Last season's SB in juniors: 125.26
Score is up: 17.03
(This team competed in seniors so I used their top junior score rather than their PB as the senior base value was different).

Buga & Pokhilyuk--Current PB: 141.16
Last season's PB: 112.55
Score is up 28.61

Andreeva & Desyatov (No ISU score from last season that I can find).

Stairs & Graham (No ISU score from last season)

Gunter & Wein--Current PB: 135.78
Last season's PB: 113.08
Score is up 22.7
(This team had no post season last year).

AVERAGE RISE IN SCORES: 23.435
(Among the top 10 junior teams that competed in ISU events during both the 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons).

We are past the halfway point on the JGP right now. I think it's probably too early to do this with the senior teams yet, and there's good reason to think the difference between last season's scores & this one's in seniors may be different than the difference for the junior teams.


Additional Note: The caller is always tight at the U.S. Classic. I don't think that's changed. Same person. H&D have two level 2s here for their footwork. (Later start to their training this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see that FD cleaned up a lot before SA). It's still hard to tell at this point, but I doubt Lombardia's scores are going to turn out to be unusually high. More likely the U.S. Classic scores wind up being some of the lowest of the dance season, per usual.

I think what people are missing in regards to ice dance was that under +3 GOE, it was much easier to earn a +3 in accordance to the guidelines due to the “GOE adjustments.”.

Do you think so? Shevchenko & Eremenko had +3s from the Austrian, Israeli, and Canadian judges for the twizzles that Sofia very definitely wobbled on in the FD at JGP Austria. I feel like some judges have just moved their definition of perfect up to +5 and now what would have been a +1 before has become a +3 for those judges. (Judges are also giving +3s for loads of elements that have lost levels). If you're getting level 1 footwork levels, aren't you most often getting that because you didn't execute it well? I definitely think those -4s and -5s are taking their toll in the singles events. See very few of them in dance though.

My concern is that the levels, themselves, aren't counting for as much as last season. I don't believe a dropped level is costing @two points anymore. I'm sure we talked about this on the board before but I think it was back before the JGP started, and I'm not sure what thread it was even in. While I'm pretty open to the quality of execution having a stronger impact than over the past 4 years in figure skating, I don't think I'm OK with what's happened with the dance difficulty scoring.

 

[thvu]

@Dobre , I was comparing the ease of getting +3 under the old rules with GOE adjustments with getting +5 today under the new rules using features. Reading back my post, I can see that it was vague.

 

[mollymgr]

There are several other things going on as well. The base value for technical elements have increased across the board. For e.g., a level 4 straight line lift now gives you a BV of 5.30 instead of 4.5.

New- SlLi4 1.73 1.38 1.04 0.69 0.35 5.30 -0.35 -0.69 -1.04 -1.38 -1.73
Old- SlLi4 1.8 1.2 0.6 4.5 - 0.5 - 1.0 - 1.5

Twizzles are graded separately.

https://www.isu.org/docman-document...ommunications/589-isu-communication-2094/file
https://www.isu.org/docman-document...munications/17140-isu-communication-2167/file

I need Tanith to explain all this when the season starts.

And at this statement-Combination Set of Twizzles is evaluated as one unit by adding the Base Values of the Lady Set of Twizzles and Man Set of Twizzles and then applying the GOE. The GOE of the Combination Set of Twizzles is equal to the sum of the numerical values of the corresponding GOE of the Lady Set of Twizzles and Man Set of Twizzles.

 

[Dobre]

Just realized I skipped D'Allessandro & Waddell above. Sorry.

D'Allessandro & Waddell--Current PB: 138.13
Last Season's PB: 113.25
Score is up: 24.88
(Anyone may feel free to recalculate the average above if they would like. Essentially, this would raise the average a tad).

 

[shuilee]

After studying the new CoP protocols, here's my new rule of thumb:

Rhythm Dance - Subtract 6 points to get an equivalent SD score of last year (82-87 is goal for top teams)
Free Dance - Subtract 10 points to get an equivalent FD score of last year (123-129 is goal for top teams)

The GoEs of the 3 choreographic lifts/steps/spins/slides are very important. H&D racked up lots of +4 GoEs which translated to +3.3s in TES points for EACH of those elements! It's interesting that these No-Level choreographic moves are now super important.

 

[lauravvv]

Khudaberdieva & Nazarov--Current PB: 169.62
Last season's PB: 133.85
Score is up: 35.77
(Also a team with no post season last year).

From which competition is this score (169.62)? Or is it perhaps a mistake, and the correct score is 159.62? Because the latter seems closer to what they earned at their JGP. I don't remember and don't have time to check right now.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all your work, Dobre.

 

[Dobre]

Or is it perhaps a mistake, and the correct score is 159.62?

Yes, thank you. I edited their score above. I'll try to refigure the average tomorrow. (Still, it's obviously going up quite a lot. I was thinking maybe 15 points before I ran the numbers, but basically all these top junior teams are going up more than that except those with the tight calling in Austria).

 

[Dobre]

As promised, the revised average among the top 10 junior teams that competed in ISU events during both the 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons:

AVERAGE RISE IN SCORES: 22.653

 

[mollymgr]

As promised, the revised average among the top 10 junior teams that competed in ISU events during both the 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons:

AVERAGE RISE IN SCORES: 22.653

Where will they go by Worlds?

 

[lauravvv]

mollymgr - Don't forget that this season with the new system the maximum RD (former SD) and FD scores are much higher than before - the huge rise in scores is happening mostly because of that.

 

[Dobre]

Also, junior scores dropped last season due to a decreased base value from the year before. So the juniors had ground to make up. It is possible their scores will rise more relative to last season than the senior ones.

Having said that, it's not that uncommon for senior debut scores to drop 10 points below a team's SB from the previous season. We are definitely not seeing that, and we've seen a lot of bombed tango patterns in the Challengers thus far. The ISU senior scores we've seen are going to climb.

Interested in finding this rocker. Did any of the teams at Salt Lake City get it?

No.

 

[starrynight]

I think a few teams were awarded the key point for the rocker at earlier competitions. Did they actually do it correctly or was the calling just easier?

I'm going to go back through the videos to see if I can spot it.

 

[Dobre]

I think a few teams were awarded the key point for the rocker at earlier competitions. Did they actually do it correctly or was the calling just easier?

Elek is the caller at the U.S. Classic for at least the third year in a row. He is a tough caller.

At the ISU Challenger Level, there are two teams that have received a YY for the portion of the pattern with the rocker: Guignard & Fabbri at Lombardia.
The Parsons at the Asian Open.

At the international level, there have been two more sets of YY handed out on the portion of the pattern with the rocker:
McNamara & Carpenter at Lake Placid International.
The Parsons at Lake Placid International.

Those are all the ones given out in international competition thus far.

If you wish to count the ones that are not in international events, there have been more. But I can't look all of those up as I do not read Russian or a good many other languages, many club events do not publish protocols, and the links to the results at the recent Russian Cup event are not showing anything for me. (Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson and Soucisse & Firus received YY at the Quebec Summer Event).

 

[firstflight]

At the ISU Challenger Level, there are two teams that have received a YY for the portion of the pattern with the rocker: Guignard & Fabbri at Lombardia.
The Parsons at the Asian Open.

At the international level, there have been two more sets of YY handed out on the portion of the pattern with the rocker:
McNamara & Carpenter at Lake Placid International.
The Parsons at Lake Placid International.

Those are all the ones given out in international competition thus far.

I know others feel like M/C and P/P should get the heck away from WISA. But I have a such a soft spot for this program building from the ground up that this news makes me smile.

 

[Dobre]

I know others feel like M/C and P/P should get the heck away from WISA. But I have a such a soft spot for this program building from the ground up that this news makes me smile.

I don't know why they would feel that way. The Parsons just defeated Hurtado & Khaliavin head-to-head.

Based on last year's results & H&K's strengths, I had/have Hurtado & Khaliavin penciled in as the likely favorites to grab the tenth spot at Worlds now that Muramoto & Reed are done. A head-to-head defeat of H&K, even with a split RD & FD, is a coup for any of these young U.S. dance teams, IMO.

Also McNamara & Carpenter are not skating to a warhorse. Neither in the RD or the FD. My current list of dance teams that can say that is a mighty short one. I feel incredibly grateful.


Note: Think Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson could make a good run at the top ten also, if they make it out of Canadian Nationals.

 

[MarieM]

So far, the best SD goes to W&P by a mile. Yes the end isn't done yet and they lost levels and steam. But it's so them. I luuuuuuuuuuurve it.

 

[VGThuy]

So far, the best SD goes to W&P by a mile. Yes the end isn't done yet and they lost levels and steam. But it's so them. I luuuuuuuuuuurve it.

YES!

That RD is brilliant. For a "short" dance, that program had a real dramatic arc, the necessary tension, the sharp movements, and it's paced so perfectly. This is the tango I've been waiting for this season. It's nice to know we can still count on Igor to provide us a great tango.

 

[chantilly]

W and P is Weaver and Poje?

Where was the dance posted?

 

[barbarafan]

W and P is Weaver and Poje?

Where was the dance posted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soRyLw_MhjM

 

[starrynight]

YES!

That RD is brilliant. For a "short" dance, that program had a real dramatic arc, the necessary tension, the sharp movements, and it's paced so perfectly. This is the tango I've been waiting for this season. It's nice to know we can still count on Igor to provide us a great tango.

I really liked it. It has a different tone to a standard tango. It's very personal and intimate. It's a romantic dance rather than the more normal aggressive love/hate/passion tango. It suits them very well. It's actually a very good example of how you can put a different spin on the tango by another means aside from picking non-traditional music.