Gracie Gold set to return

[ZilphaK]

I think Gracie definitely needs to skate in a tutu. To Joan Jett.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

I think Gracie definitely needs to skate in a tutu. To Joan Jett.

Or Bjork.

 

[ZilphaK]

Or Bjork.

Bjork a MUCH better option. Even really old Bjork, like from the Sugarcubes. "Birthday" would be gripping as a SP. Those high notes would rip out the speakers on most rink PA systems.

For FS, maybe something by PJ Harvey or "Cannonball" by The Breeders?

 

[aftershocks]

so... in order to score well at the 2018 Olys one needed a lot of prior international experience? Someone better tell Zag!

Not to speak for @overedge, but I don't glean that's at all what she said in her previous post, unless I'm mistaken in my reading and overedge will correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I can see at the moment, berthesghost, this is your misinterpretation.

... you were comparing two of their program musics that they were both warned not to use. Tara sold Anastasia in a way Bradie never sold Cinderella. Speaking strictly about their presentation skills: Tara was a phenom that generated a tremendous buzz even before she turned senior. Bradie skated two entire seasons with little to no attention paid to her, and in her 3rd year was suddenly “discovered” like she appeared out of nowhere. It’s easier to sell “bad” programs when you have an it factor. Just because Tara sold her music choice doesn’t make Sandra wrong.

Tsk, tsk @berthesghost, I think you are in semantic-error overload. Neither lady was 'warned.' I believe it's more accurate and semantically on target to say they were encouraged or advised to select different music.

Meanwhile, I am not judging Sandra either wrong or right. Sandra was apparently following her own aesthetic beliefs and desires by encouraging Tara to choose different music. In the end, Sandra must have realized that Tara was going to be the one skating to the music, not her. Sandra was contracted to create the choreography, and once she accepted that Tara knew her own desires, Sandra obviously got down to business doing what she was hired to do.

Furthermore, please desist from telling me what I am doing, thinking or saying. There's no need for you to misinterpret my posts or put words in my mouth. I did not compare their programs. I was simply reminded of Tara having stuck to her guns with her music choices way back in the 1997-1998 season, so I mentioned it as another example, not as a comparison. As I said earlier, I am not comparing Tara vs Bradie either. But you can continue to do so in another thread if you wish to go down that fairly dead-end avenue. I'm not going with you. Bye!

 

[aftershocks]

What I'd like to know is whether Gracie is wasting her valuable time reading this thread. Probably not!

But if she is, will she laugh at the program suggestions, or take notes?

I think Gracie definitely needs to skate in a tutu. To Joan Jett.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNw7jYkbVc I hate myself for loving you

Or Bjork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqbv7cCM5AI Utopia

ETA:

Bjork a MUCH better option. Even really old Bjork, like from the Sugarcubes. "Birthday" would be gripping as a SP. Those high notes would rip out the speakers on most rink PA systems. For FS, maybe something by PJ Harvey or "Cannonball" by The Breeders?

Birthday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edmDN11BxCY Unusual, but not lively enough IMO

Cannonball, The Breeders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxvkI9MTQw4 Hmmm interesting, but no I don't think so...

 

[ZilphaK]

What I'd like to know is whether Gracie is wasting her valuable time reading this thread. Probably not!

But if she is, will she laugh at the program suggestions, or take notes?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNw7jYkbVc I hate myself for loving you



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqbv7cCM5AI Utopia

I hope she has a good laugh.

Although, Bjork....

 

[ZilphaK]

What I'd like to know is whether Gracie is wasting her valuable time reading this thread. Probably not!

But if she is, will she laugh at the program suggestions, or take notes?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNw7jYkbVc I hate myself for loving you



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqbv7cCM5AI Utopia

ETA:


Birthday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edmDN11BxCY Unusual, but not lively enough IMO

Cannonball, The Breeders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxvkI9MTQw4 Hmmm interesting, but no I don't think so...

Lol...no, I think those songs would be a stretch, even for someone like Radionova.

 

[AliasJohnDoe]

Or Bjork.

YES!... Big Time Sensuality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E5-4GdzXWw

 

[kwanatic]

I said it years ago...I want to see Gracie skate to "Smack My Bitch Up" by Prodigy.

 

[Simone411]

I said it years ago...I want to see Gracie skate to "Smack My Bitch Up" by Prodigy.

If she uses that, then I want Gracie to use this song, Too!

Da' BUTT

 

[savchenkoboss]

Every competition Gracie enters is hers to win or lose. Medvedeva, Zagitova, Osmond even know they have no hope against a clean Gracie. I hope that reality does not put too much pressure on her and cause her to implode. Even past U.S greats like Kwan, Cohen, Yamaguchi, Kerrigan did not have that pressure. Kwan and Cohen could both skate clean and still lose to a clean Slutskaya or even a clean Arakawa (and Lipinski too for Kwan), Yamaguchi could skate clean and lose if Ito or Harding hit their triple axel, a clean Kerrigan could still lose to a ton of people. Thomas could skate perfectly and easily lose to a clean Witt still. Hamill and Fratianne could have a perfect competition and lose just due to figures deficits. Gold has the immense pressure of knowing every event she enters, Worlds, Nationals, Olympics, Grand Prix final, regular grand prix, is in her own hands, and she alone decides if she places 1st or somewhere other than 1st. Even with years away that pressure which no U.S skater has had since maybe Peggy Fleming has probably not subsided.

 

[RoseRed]

Every competition Gracie enters is hers to win or lose. Medvedeva, Zagitova, Osmond even know they have no hope against a clean Gracie. I hope that reality does not put too much pressure on her and cause her to implode.

I don't agree with this. A completely clean Gracie at her peak would be competitive with these ladies, but 'no hope'? No.

Gracie's BV from her US Nats 2016 FS with all level 4 was 62.49. Evgenia had 62.33 at the Olympics. That's a 0.16 difference. Evgenia had 5 jumps backloaded and Gracie had 4, so the gap would be a little bigger under the new rules. If I guess that Evgenia keeps her 3F, 3Lo and 3S-3T in the bonus and moves the 2A and 2A-2T-2T out, then she loses 0.92. If I guess that Gracie keeps her 2A-3T-2T, 3Lz and 3S in the bonus and moves the 3F-2T out, then she loses 0.66. So the BV gap between them would be 0.42.

That's less than half a point. Now, you could argue that Gracie should get higher GOE than Evgenia, but in reality Evgenia has been getting very high GOEs and we don't know if that will change or how it'll look with the new rules. And then on PCS, well imo Evgenia is by far the better performer and interpreter (even if you dislike her style, the commitment is always there). And even if your opinion is that Gracie should be higher in SS or TR, Evgenia has been getting very high scores in this, so there's not likely to be a big difference.

All of that definitely doesn't add up to Evgenia having no hope against a clean Gracie to me.

Then there's Alina. Even without the backloading, her BV is higher. And she's been getting high GOE and PCS (even if you disagree with her PCS scores). Her BV at the Olympics was 66.01. Let's say she keeps the 3F-2T-2Lo, 3F and 3Lz in the bonus and moves the rest out. Then she loses 2.64 in BV. She'd still have 1.54 in BV over Gracie. She gets good GOE and some of her jumps might actually be better done earlier in the program. And I guess you might argue that Gracie should win on PCS, but again, whether you agree or not, she gets good components and she's the Olympic champ now.

That doesn't sound like she has no chance against a clean Gracie.

For Kaetlyn, her Olympic BV is 62.12, and the limit on the bonus will affect her least because she only had one combo in there. If she moves the 2A and leaves the 3Lo, 3F, and 3S-2T-2Lo, then she only loses 0.33. Then she and Gracie end up with almost identical BV. Kaetlyn gets good GOE and is definitely stronger than Gracie was on the components (imo of course).

So again, 'no hope'? Doesn't sound like it.

I could look at SP too, but I think the point is clear.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I don't agree with this. A completely clean Gracie at her peak would be competitive with these ladies, but 'no hope'? No.

Gracie's BV from her US Nats 2016 FS with all level 4 was 62.49. Evgenia had 62.33 at the Olympics. That's a 0.16 difference. Evgenia had 5 jumps backloaded and Gracie had 4, so the gap would be a little bigger under the new rules. If I guess that Evgenia keeps her 3F, 3Lo and 3S-3T in the bonus and moves the 2A and 2A-2T-2T out, then she loses 0.92. If I guess that Gracie keeps her 2A-3T-2T, 3Lz and 3S in the bonus and moves the 3F-2T out, then she loses 0.66. So the BV gap between them would be 0.42.

That's less than half a point. Now, you could argue that Gracie should get higher GOE than Evgenia, but in reality Evgenia has been getting very high GOEs and we don't know if that will change or how it'll look with the new rules. And then on PCS, well imo Evgenia is by far the better performer and interpreter (even if you dislike her style, the commitment is always there). And even if your opinion is that Gracie should be higher in SS or TR, Evgenia has been getting very high scores in this, so there's not likely to be a big difference.

All of that definitely doesn't add up to Evgenia having no hope against a clean Gracie to me.

Then there's Alina. Even without the backloading, her BV is higher. And she's been getting high GOE and PCS (even if you disagree with her PCS scores). Her BV at the Olympics was 66.01. Let's say she keeps the 3F-2T-2Lo, 3F and 3Lz in the bonus and moves the rest out. Then she loses 2.64 in BV. She'd still have 1.54 in BV over Gracie. She gets good GOE and some of her jumps might actually be better done earlier in the program. And I guess you might argue that Gracie should win on PCS, but again, whether you agree or not, she gets good components and she's the Olympic champ now.

That doesn't sound like she has no chance against a clean Gracie.

For Kaetlyn, her Olympic BV is 62.12, and the limit on the bonus will affect her least because she only had one combo in there. If she moves the 2A and leaves the 3Lo, 3F, and 3S-2T-2Lo, then she only loses 0.33. Then she and Gracie end up with almost identical BV. Kaetlyn gets good GOE and is definitely stronger than Gracie was on the components (imo of course).

So again, 'no hope'? Doesn't sound like it.

I could look at SP too, but I think the point is clear.

Your points are valid but I am looking at the 2016 worlds as a barometer. Their Gracie and Evgenia both had clean shorts and Gracie was about 3 and a half points ahead. Evgenia even was behind her teammate Anna (who was also clean) in the short. Then in the long the consensus is Gracie would have easily won had she been clean, even though Evgenia had arguably her best long program skate ever. In fact the consensus at the time was she might have won (overall, maybe not the LP) even with the first fall/only 1 mistake.

Obviously Medvedeva and Zagitova both clean are about tied, Zagitova's win at the Olympics is super controversial, she even got some death threats online over it (not as many as Sotnikova had in 2014, but still clear many were fuming over the result, which might be a reason she seemed depressed at worlds and bombed). And Medvedeva hasnt improved any since 2016. Osmond, rightly or wrongly, easily finishes behind both Russians when all are clean, so her bar is even lower.

 

[kwanatic]

If she uses that, then I want Gracie to use this song, Too!

Da' BUTT

I love this song!!

"Ain't nuthin wrong, if you wanna do da' butt all night long! Yay-eee-yay-eee-oow!"

 

[kwanatic]

Your points are valid but I am looking at the 2016 worlds as a barometer. Their Gracie and Evgenia both had clean shorts and Gracie was about 3 and a half points ahead. Evgenia even was behind her teammate Anna (who was also clean) in the short. Then in the long the consensus is Gracie would have easily won had she been clean, even though Evgenia had arguably her best long program skate ever. In fact the consensus at the time was she might have won (overall, maybe not the LP) even with the first fall/only 1 mistake.

Obviously Medvedeva and Zagitova both clean are about tied, Zagitova's win at the Olympics is super controversial, she even got some death threats online over it (not as many as Sotnikova had in 2014, but still clear many were fuming over the result, which might be a reason she seemed depressed at worlds and bombed). And Medvedeva hasnt improved any since 2016. Osmond, rightly or wrongly, easily finishes behind both Russians when all are clean, so her bar is even lower.

Sorry, but your view on Gracie and where she stands internationally is woefully out of touch. Gracie hasn't competed successfully since her SP win in 2016...in Boston. Let's been honest, that score was inflated due to the fact she was on home soil. Gracie had an amazing performance of her SP at TEB that year and scored 73.32--she scored 76.43 in Boston. Yes, Gracie had a shot at winning in Boston had she skated cleanly b/c she was competing at home as the national champ.

Momentum has a lot to do with scores and as of now, Gracie has no momentum at all coming into this season. After her 4th place finish at Worlds in 2016 her skating plummeted the following season. Meanwhile Evgenia was undefeated that season and Kaetlyn found her stride and won silver at Worlds. Both women continued to stay at or near the top last season and won Olympic medals. And of course Alina showed up and won nearly everything including the Olympic title. And while I don't agree with her winning I wouldn't necessarily call it "controversial."

Boston SP score aside, Gracie has never come close to the kinds of scores Evgenia, Kaetlyn and Alina have received internationally (78+ in the SP and 150+ in the FS) so proclaiming that the others have "no hope" is very misguided IMO.

Gracie would have to do what Kaetlyn did in 2016-2017 and build herself up with a standout program or two and some overall decent skating. Katelyn was never perfect but thanks in large part to the success of her SP and the consistency she had with that program, she was able to position herself well enough in the SP to land on the podium with a half-decent FS. The rest of it had to do with the fact Kaetlyn's overall skating (skating skills, transitions, spins, interpretation, etc.) is very strong and the jumps she did land were incredible compared to the field.

Gracie is similar to Kaetlyn in that regard. She can be an effortless jumper and though she lacks in the interpretation/performance side of things compared to several of the others, she is strong everywhere else. Good programs and strong overall skating will help Gracie re-position herself as a top contender. At her best is she competitive at the top? Absolutely. Would she easily beat Medevedeva, Zagitova or Osmond? No. All three have momentum, judges' favor and respect as well as World and/or Olympic medals behind them. Gracie would have to put out her absolute best...and even then she may need some help until she can build the kind of rep and respect they all have.

 

[Rock2]

Every competition Gracie enters is hers to win or lose. Medvedeva, Zagitova, Osmond even know they have no hope against a clean Gracie.

Aw, that's really sweet.....but no.

Gracie has immaculate technique and a lot of power to her skating. She fills out the ice incredibly well and skaters who do that don't get enough credit.

Osmond is a similar skater who can effortlessly match her on her best qualities. However, Osmond is now better than her in TR and IN for sure...and comparable on CH.

Adding a world gold, silver and Olympic bronze to the resume means Gracie has some catching up to do to be seen as top-of-the-podium elite.

On a separate yet related note, I cringe a bit at the narrative of 'hers to lose'. This kind of thinking has I think contributed to the undoing of Gracie so I'm happy to believe she's not thinking this way at all. After 2014 she was by bar the best skater who stayed in, so it was to be 'her' cycle. Boston was 'hers to lose' after the short. Just an awful and unsavory way to approach competitions and your career.

These last few years have been hers to create a new story and narrative for herself. Looking forward to seeing what it is.

 

[savchenkoboss]

One thing you need to remember in comparing Osmond to Gold is it is not just about the skating. The U.S federation is the most powerful in the sport with Russia a close 2nd. Canada has a weak federation with little pull, which is why it has so many skaters famously screwed over the years- Sale & Pelletier, Brasseur & Eisler, Stojko, Orser, Underhill & Martini, Virtue & Moir, time and time again famously were robbed of medals and wins in controversial judging due to the weak Canadian fed. Given their federations I am pretty sure a clean Gold would always be scored over a clean Osmond, regardless which is the better skater (that part I agree is a close call).

 

[berthesghost]

Asking for some friends: Wood, Starbuck&Shelley, Lynn, B&S, Roz, Linda, Nancy, Todd and Mirai all want to hear more about this

 

[savchenkoboss]

Asking for some friends: Wood, Starbuck&Shelley, Lynn, B&S, Roz, Linda, Nancy, Todd and Mirai all want to hear more about this

I mean in singles, U.S does not care much about pairs and dance so doesnt politic much for them.

Todd was never undermarked. Neither was Mirai. Neither was Lynn, she lost due to the unbalanced value given to compulsory figures back then which was a flaw in the scoring system, the judges absolutely loved her and she won every free skating round with perfect 6.0s (deserved). Kerrigan was probably robbed of gold in Lillehammer, but if you look over her whole career she was the held up queen- 92 Olympic bigtime gift, 93 worlds bigtime gift to come 5th with that awful skate in such a well skated event, 92 worlds massive gift. When you look up "held up" in the dictionary Kerrigan's picture could be there if you look at her entire career prior to Lillehammer.

And Roz very nearly won the gold in Sarajevo with a big time choke LAME performance where she popped atleast half the triples or double axels she tried. In case you have forgotten just how bad it was which is understandable given how long ago Sarajevo was, look here, and if one judge of three or four changes his/her mark by just .1 she wins gold directly via winning the long program (she wasnt even leading going into the long) with that hot mess:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k4cBjtJ2WI

Notice the two 5.9s for technical merit, ROTFL!!!

 

[berthesghost]

I love how people pop off about roz’s LP like Kat had some triple packed LP ala Denise or Elaine. She poped one less triple than Roz did, then stoped and posed between two foot skating more.

 

[kwanatic]

One thing you need to remember in comparing Osmond to Gold is it is not just about the skating. The U.S federation is the most powerful in the sport with Russia a close 2nd. Canada has a weak federation with little pull, which is why it has so many skaters famously screwed over the years- Sale & Pelletier, Brasseur & Eisler, Stojko, Orser, Underhill & Martini, Virtue & Moir, time and time again famously were robbed of medals and wins in controversial judging due to the weak Canadian fed. Given their federations I am pretty sure a clean Gold would always be scored over a clean Osmond, regardless which is the better skater (that part I agree is a close call).

Look, I'm not too sure what dimension/planet you've been watching skating on but here on Earth, that's not the case at all. Federations do come into play, no denying that; however, if you think a clean Gracie would beat a clean Kaetlyn you are grossly overestimating Gracie's abilities and international position. Gracie could beat a rather flawed Kaetlyn if she were to skate cleanly but the only people capable of beating a clean Kaetlyn are Evgenia and Alina...and honestly, that would be highly debatable. IMO in an "all skate clean" scenario I think Kaetlyn should beat both Evgenia and Alina.

 

[berthesghost]

No, it’s about federations! Like if Gracie skated clean at the Olys and Kaetlyn skated a better program with more content, but wasn’t perfect yet still won, the usfs would make such a stink that two OGMs would have to be given. Canada just doesn’t have that kind of power.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Look, I'm not to sure what dimension/planet you've been watching skating on but here on Earth, that's not the case at all. Federations do come into play, no denying that; however, if you think a clean Gracie would beat a clean Kaetlyn you are grossly overestimating Gracie's abilities and international position. Gracie could beat a rather flawed Kaetlyn if she were to skate cleanly but the only people capable of beating a clean Kaetlyn are Evgenia and Alina...and honestly, that would be highly debatable. IMO in an "all skate clean" scenario I think Kaetlyn should beat both Evgenia and Alina.

Not everyone loves Kaetlyn's skating as much as you apparently do. Do recall a number of people griping after worlds last year that Higuchi should have won the LP phase over Osmond atleast, if not possibly overall. Higuchi who is only the Japanese #3. Now granted Kaetlyn didnt skate a perfectly clean LP at worlds but a pretty good one, and Higuchi wasnt perfect either.

 

[Madhatter]

Not everyone loves Kaetlyn's skating as much as you apparently do. Do recall a number of people griping after worlds last year that Higuchi should have won the LP phase over Osmond atleast, if not possibly overall. Higuchi who is only the Japanese #3. Now granted Kaetlyn didnt skate a perfectly clean LP at worlds but a pretty good one, and Higuchi wasnt perfect either.

It's not kwanatic's love that matters, it's the judges'. And judges do love them some Kaetlyn. Yeah, Higuchi should have won the LP, but she didn't, and that should tell you something.

 

[savchenkoboss]

It's not kwanatic's love that matters, it's the judges'. And judges do love them some Kaetlyn. Yeah, Higuchi should have won the LP, but she didn't, and that should tell you something.

The judges dont love her that much though. Her short program in Pyeongcheng was arguably better than Medvedeva and Zagitova, and she finished many points behind both.

 

[peibeck]

I don't think anyone should be comparing the Gracie of 2016 to the medalists of the 2018 Olympics or 2018 Worlds. We have zero, zero, insight as to where this young woman is in terms of her return to form athletically, or how she has learned to cope with the psychological and physical demands of the sport.

It would be amazing to see Gracie return in amazing form, but I think realistically we should keep expectations to a minimum, then if she surpasses them: wonderful. If not, at least she is skating on her own terms.

 

[aftershocks]

Canada has a weak federation with little pull, which is why it has so many skaters famously screwed over the years- Sale & Pelletier, Brasseur & Eisler, Stojko, Orser, Underhill & Martini, Virtue & Moir, time and time again famously were robbed of medals and wins in controversial judging due to the weak Canadian fed.

Say whaaat??? Canada happens to be one of the top federations in the world in terms of political clout, very much more-so than the U.S.

Where are you getting your erroneous impressions from I wonder.

Regardless of what their fans might think V&M have not been 'famously screwed over the years.' They've been exceedingly well rewarded for their enviable talent. At 2011 Worlds, it could have gone either way. I thought V/M were slightly better, but Tessa was coming back from surgery and they hadn't competed for the entire season. The contest was close, and the judges preferred to reward D/W on that occasion. But D/W caught the short-end of the stick the following year at 2012 Worlds where they were actually better than V/M, especially in overall FD program creativity, content and execution. In fact, D/W were better over that entire season, aside from the SD where the contest was more even, yet still quite exceptional by D/W.

I don't see "screwed over" and Virtue/Moir belonging in the same sentence. And for each of the other examples you cite, you need to take it event-by-event. These skaters weren't any more 'screwed over' than are any skaters at competitive events where you need luck to go along with hard work and talent.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Say whaaat??? Canada happens to be one of the top federations in the world in terms of political clout, very much more-so than the U.S.

Where are you getting your erroneous impressions from I wonder.

I am a Canadian and we have been heartbroken with many decisions on our skaters over the years. I am sure as a skating fan you remember the "scandal" that saw Sale & Pelletier robbed of an Olympic Gold (at first) in one of the worst decisions in skating history, which was so bad the IOC was forced to award them a 2nd gold out of sheer embarassment. The only time in skating history this has ever happened, even the horrendous Sotnikova over Kim decision did not result in a 2nd Oly Gold medal, which tells you just how bad this decision was deemed to be. Stojko has been the victim of controversial judging many times over, most notably his Olympic loss to Urmanov in 94. Orser has come out on the short end of the stick in many close judging decisions, some where the results were questioned by fans and some of our own commentators/writers. Virtue & Moir and their losing streak to Davis & White had many people scratching their heads in disbelief at times too, and wondering what exactly was going on. And Bourne & Kraatz, while I am not a fan, were infamously pushed off the podium by the whole "bloc judging" scanadal at the Nagano Olympics which Tracy Wilson outlined on CBS's coverage. In general Canadians have had a hard time over the years. Canadians are famous for our honesty and humbleness, and it comes back to bite us since our own officials dont know how to politic or lie and scheme for their skaters. It is too "Un-Canadian". Skate Canada is full of intelligent and wonderful people who know how to succeed but as far as politicking and making deals, just wont happen, they like all Canadians know to be Canadian is to stay humble, gentle, kind, modest, and fair. Even while the Russians, French, Americans, and many others are aggressively campaigning for their own, trading favors, and making deals.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Those whiny debates need to be taken to a Trash Can thread entitled: "Canadian skaters always screwed over! Nevermind Canadians won recent Olympic team gold!



ETA:
-- Not to mention current Olympic gold medalists in ice dance: Virtue/Moir; Olympic bronze medalists in pairs: Duhamel/Radford; Olympic bronze medalist in ladies: Kaetlyn Osmond; World gold medalist in ladies: Kaetlyn Osmond; World bronze medalists in ice dance: Weaver/Poje; unexpected sixth place at Worlds in pairs: Moore-Towers/Marinaro; plus 2017 World silver and bronze medalists in ladies: Kaetlyn Osmond & Gabby Daleman

What a sad thing it is to be a Canadian figure skating fan.

 

[Carolla5501]

I'm loving the Canadian inferiority complex on here. Not sure the facts support it. But it makes some of you feel better. Just looking at results over the last few years I'm not sure that it's true that all the judges hate you and are out to get you. Maybe the truth is your federation wasted too much capital on Chan. . LOL.