Interview with ISU Vice President Lakernik on how figure skating will change

[Tinami Amori]

The one type of quad suggestion is bullsh!t. IMO if a skater can deliver 2 beautiful quads toes, and a hideous 4flutz, let them show their best qualities and not have to show an inferior jump just because the rules say so.

It is more effort, more risk, more talent, more technique to learn 2 different quads and perform them in competition, than to learn 1 quad and repeat it 2x in competition.

If one learn two languages (French and German) and reads 1 poem in each language, it is harder than to learn just one language and read 2 poems in the same one.

 

[DimaToe]

It is more effort, more risk, more talent, more technique to learn 2 different quads and perform them in competition, than to learn 1 quad and repeat it 2x in competition.

If one learn two languages (French and German) and reads 1 poem in each language, it is harder than to learn just one language and read 2 poems in the same one.

I get where you are coming from but I don’t agree, If I we were to compare quads to languages. Let’s say quads are like the romantic languages. There is a differences in each but “root words” and what not are similar. It’s not like a 4toe is Russian per se and a 4 lutz is mam. There are still similarities in the muscles that you would use, while take off edge and the jump being a toe or edge jump might differ, the similarities in body awareness just doesn’t let it be easily compared to the example that you provide.

The point I am trying to make it that IJS has limited skaters to show what they are best at, and rules like limiting quads to one per jump type would only support that. Let’s say if Zagitova wasn’t allowed to have all jumps in the 2nd half, it’s not really showing talent to have jumps in both halves of the program, it’s just the TPTB making a half a$$sed attempt to even out the competitive field.

 

[BittyBug]

It is more effort, more risk, more talent, more technique to learn 2 different quads and perform them in competition, than to learn 1 quad and repeat it 2x in competition.

I don't disagree but the person who can do two different quads is already going to be rewarded because if they have two quads they can repeat them and therefore jump 4 quads in a program, whereas the skater who only knows 1 quad will be able to do at most 2 in a program.

And there is already incentive to learn more difficult quads because they have a higher point value.

 

[VGThuy]

Why don't we extend the one type of quad to triples as well? That would also help to add more choreography and skaters will spend less time for jump set-up.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I get where you are coming from but I don’t agree, If I we were to compare quads to languages. Let’s say quads are like the romantic languages. There is a differences in each but “root words” and what not are similar. It’s not like a 4toe is Russian per se and a 4 lutz is mam. There are still similarities in the muscles that you would use, while take off edge and the jump being a toe or edge jump might differ, the similarities in body awareness just doesn’t let it be easily compared to the example that you provide.

The point I am trying to make it that IJS has limited skaters to show what they are best at, and rules like limiting quads to one per jump type would only support that. Let’s say if Zagitova wasn’t allowed to have all jumps in the 2nd half, it’s not really showing talent to have jumps in both halves of the program, it’s just the TPTB making a half a$$sed attempt to even out the competitive field.

... ok, let me try to be even more general with an example (but lets leave jumps in 2nd half issue out, i see it differently).
Let's say to learn each quad it takes the following amount of effort points (not competition scores) for things you have to give up, take risk, work on, develop: time spent, risk taken, talent and abilities expanded, hurt/bruises/pain, etc.
Quad loop: (10)
- time - 2
- risk - 2
- talent - 2
- physical abil. - 2
- hurt/bruises - 2

Quad Sal (10)
- time - 2
- risk - 2
- talent - 2
- physical abil. - 2
- hurt/bruises - 2

So when a skater expands his "efforts" to 2 jumps, he expanded himself 2X10 and put in effort worth 20 points..
But when a skater expands his "effort" to 1 jump, he spend only 10 points worth of effort.
So in first case we have 10+10 (in terms of effort, risk, talent, abilities, injuries etc).
In second case we have 10+0 (in terms of effort, risk, talent, abilities, injuries etc).

(10+10)*2 = 20
(10+0)*2 = 10

I don't disagree but the person who can do two different quads is already going to be rewarded because if they have two quads they can repeat them and therefore jump 4 quads in a program, whereas the skater who only knows 1 quad will be able to do at most 2 in a program..

My example was figurative: learning 2 is harder/takes more effort than learning 1.
You can increase it up and say:
learning 3 is harder than learning 2.
learning 4 is harder than learning 3.
learning 5 is harder than learning 4. etc.

 

[Meoima]

Everyone, Lakernik himself said the quad limit proposal is hard to pass, he doesn’t think it will be accepted by the majority of the federations. Don’t drill on it much.

 

[Japanfan]

- if the named few skaters can do many types of quads then it is only fair that they win.
- those who can't do 4+ types of quads should rightfully loose points, and the solution is: learn other types of quads.
- when someone took time effort energy talent to learn 4+ different quads, that person should be rewarded higher than someone who took an easier route: learned only 2 types of quads and then repeats each several times in the same programme.

But some men/people learn quads more easily than other.

It's only been in the past few years that skaters have been doing 4 plus quads, and older guys haven't been able to keep up. In 2010 the man who won the Olympic Gold medal did not have a quad. Just a few years ago Chan was winning World and other titles with just two quads. IIRC he had only had the toe for a time, prior to training the salchow?

Also, coaches need to be able to train skaters on multiple quads, and until recently there hasn't been a need for that.

I'm sure that in the next few years coaches will be taking steps to learn how to coach quads, and younger skaters will be training multiple quads. As a result, the number of different quads attempted in competition will go up.

I don't think this is necessary a good thing, and the pendulum may swing back at some point.

Chen, Uno and Hanyu are better than the rest at present, and the others are just shit out of luck for not doing 4+, for whatever reason: lack of ability, lack of talent, lack of time, not old enough, started late, had injuries, not lucky.... whatever.

Don't forget about Boyang. I think he's definitely in the mix for medal contention, and expect to see some improvement from him in future as he looks towards 2022 at home in Beijing.

 

[Meoima]

Hanyu might just stay for 1-2 seasons to land 4A in competition.
I’d say, given that next Olympic will be in Beijing, Boyang has much better chance to win than other men. He also has improved a lot in skating skills. His jumps have better technique and quality than the guys his age too. Of course Boyang did badly at this WC but he has a lot of potential.

 

[analia]

Ever since pairs skating got good this quad 16 spots are not enough anymore by singles and dance standard. But that's also why pairs FS is the only event I can watch from start to finish and every team is good enough to be there. Maybe they should cut singles and dance to 16 too?

Quad repeat ban seems stupid. If you let skaters repeat a triple, you should let them repeat a quad. What if someone wants to try a 4t-4t? Why on earth ban that?

 

[Bellanca]

Everyone, Lakernik himself said the quad limit proposal is hard to pass, he doesn’t think it will be accepted by the majority of the federations. Don’t drill on it much.

True, but they'll still discuss it.

If the goal is to have a sport that allows all the athletes to shine and reach their full potential, limiting or excluding jumps, quads, various quads, in this case, is not the way to go about it. Now if the goal is for the upper echelons to be the only viable contenders by assuring the point-getting jumps are tailored to their specific needs, then the ISU is basically hamstringing and stifling the growth of the sport, and the athlete alike, in their attempt to level the playing field by entertaining such a rule. Of course, they’ve considered many proposals ranging from brilliant to ridiculous over the decades.

The question the ISU will have to answer to inquiring federations, will be, why hold back (or down) a skater that can successfully complete the various quads? Because it’s not considered to be fair play? Please, stop with the nonsense and mindset of having to level the playing field, already. Or, IF this vision or transformation is ultimately what the ISU would (eventually) like to see happen in the future, why wait? Do it already…

Make the rules so that every skater performs/competes using one slightly time-extended program with the same layout, to the same music, wearing an all-black unitard or bodysuit, as has been suggested in the past – and then sit back and see how that goes over. Our beloved Uncle Dick would burn down the town! Although to be fair, I know quite a few people who would love and entirely embrace this transformation. Not kidding. TBTH, I see why some skaters would welcome this change, feeling their abilities would not get lost in another athlete’s window dressing, etc.

I think having the discussion is healthy and necessary but finagling the sport in such a way, is to make it a cookie- cutter competition. And, again, if that is what the ISU would like to do, get on with it, and then leave it alone.
Thanks for starting the thread, @Meoima, it’s been fun and … spirited!

 

[Willin]

I'm against most of these changes. I understand why they're doing them, but I think they'll limit skaters. In particular I think the quad rule would make the separation between top men and the next group men even greater. Few skaters can do the quad, and even fewer can do more than one type of quad. If a skater can only do a 4T, we shouldn't limit them to one 4T - that would take away the value of a second 4T that could get them closer to the podium.

I also think they should focus more on prerotation. I think that should have a < or ! of it's own on protocols. There's a good number of skaters who do it, but no one gets called for it, and I think that may be because there's no specific way to call it.

 

[Judy]

And that might discourage so much back loading.

I really hate the shortening of the free skate. How does that enhance the sport?

I hate that too. Why? I don’t agree with the cost idea.

 

[Judy]

I am exceedingly disappointed to see figures have not been reinstatede over and over .. poor j.
Urges lore
-BB

L.
Oh please no. It’s already in the sd briefly but the same music over and over ...

 

[Rock2]

I agree. I think they should come up with rule that doesn't come across as benefiting or disadvantaging one skater. Going for quality, yes, and in return you can only do one quad per type of quad.

I get the point you're trying to make but I'm not really on board.
Your point comes across like you want to modify the scoring to equalize all the skaters.
I want scoring that rewards the best skaters, recognizing technical competency, quality and components.

Philosophically, I'm against rules that create limitations on skaters' ability to show technical prowess, compared to what currently exists. That feels regressive.
What I AM ok with, is balancing to what degree tech influences overall scoring to make sure GoE and PCS matter at the appropriate levels. You play that game with values.

 

[Rock2]

Let's understand that the eastern block, led by Russia, drives most of the rule changes. As a result, their skaters tend to benefit the most from rule changes.

Who is doing all he quads? Japanese, Chinese, Americans
Who has the most stamina issues getting through 4:30? Russian pairs and men, who do elements almost at a standstill in the last minute.
When you look back at all the pairs rule changes, suppressing values for quads and upping values for simple sbs triples and throws, this played right into the hands of Russian skaters who did the easiest sbs triples and throws and no quads (until T/M twist)

The arguments against S/M's abilities would hold more credibility if he aired his own skaters' dirty laundry. Talk about your ladies who can do 7 triples but have 6-7 level SS and use less than half the ice surface in the last half of programs....yet pull 9s like a boss. How you fixing that, big boy? Talk about how T/M (mostly him) stop moving in the last minute and give zero energy to the performance as he skates with his mouth open gasping for air but the 9s are flying.

I worry about +5/-5. A way to help skaters who do easy elements (jumps) get the same score as those with more technical prowess. You can be sure the skaters getting +3 for jumps that cover no ice and have avg height and zero flow on the landing will graduate to +5 on day 1. Right now, we're not giving +3 for quality. We give it to the most consistent jumpers (even on spins). Until the ISU gets reconnected to what quality truly is, I hate this change...for now.

Watch how much more dominant Russian skaters become in the next cycle. The groundwork is being laid.

 

[Meoima]

Who is doing all he quads? Japanese, Chinese, Americans
Who has the most stamina issues getting through 4:30? Russian pairs and men, who do elements almost at a standstill in the last minute.

Since when Russian men do quads in the last minutes?

 

[Tinami Amori]

Let's understand that the eastern block, led by Russia, drives most of the rule changes. As a result, their skaters tend to benefit the most from rule changes.

Watch how much more dominant Russian skaters become in the next cycle. The groundwork is being laid.

and Russians claim the rules changes are driven by US/Canada...

Who is doing all he quads? Japanese, Chinese, Americans
Who has the most stamina issues getting through 4:30? Russian pairs and men, who do elements almost at a standstill in the last minute.

Russian men would benefit from longer LP because, now when they have less quads, longer LP leaves more time for spins and other elements which they are good at.

Re quads: It was Plushenko who raised the issue of "higher value of the quad" against quad-less programmes of Lysachek and Chan.

But some men/people learn quads more easily than other.

Oh, well....then those who learn longer or don't learn don't get a medal skating against those lucky, fortunate, privileged by nature, powerful in body, evil skating-capital herding talents.... too bad, so sad....

 

[Tyranid]

We do have a thread on this interview but it seems like there is no proper translation;

Well here it is:
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...of-quads-may-be-limited&p=2058283#post2058283

"For the benefit of those who do not know Alexander Rafailovich Lakernik: he has been appointed as vice president of the International Skating Union, the governing body of figure skating, in 2016. He is also one of the main architects of the new judging system (IJS/COP). He has judged and has been a member of technical panels for many years. From 2010-2016 he was the vice president of Russia’s skating federation (FFKR). Given this, he should be the most influential man in figure skating today."

Also, some improtant info:
1. +5/-5 GOE and LP time reduction are the only changes that have taken effect. Everything else will be decided upon during the ISU congress this June.

2. The scale of values for GOE will be in intervals of 10% of an element's base value. So a perfect jump will be one and a half times the BV, whereas a fall will put the score at half value (plus 1 point deduction).

3. New proposed base values shown on table here:
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

4. In a radio interview a couple months back, Lakernik expressed fear that ice dancing might be removed from the Olympics. There is no further info on that, however.

 

[clairecloutier]

Thanks for the link to the translation!

Admins--could this thread be merged with the existing thread on this topic?? https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...nik-on-how-figure-skating-will-change.103757/

 

[bardtoob]

Shortening a program while also reducing the base value will do nothing but make the program shorter while keeping similar emphasis as now on the technical aspect and artistic aspect.

If the technical base value remains the same but the program is shorter it emphasizes the technical aspect.

If the technical base value is lower but the program remained the same length then the artistic aspect is emphasized.

Increasing the variance around the base value with a wider GOE span will just make GOEs more political.

AND shorting a program, lowering the base value, and widening the GOEs all at once will just be a disaster that will result in more inconsistent scoring where the points total will result in weird rankings and the results will be more contraversial.

I hope the technical panel understands skating because they clearly do not understand math.

--------------

BTW, my suspicion is that they are shorting the LP for commercial and logistic reasons, not because of technical reasons. If they make all long programs in every discipline the same length, then it is easier to plan and televise an event. Forget that men skate longer programs than women because in theory men have more capacity for strength and endurance.

 

[Rock2]

Since when Russian men do quads in the last minutes?

They don't...because they can't. I referred to 'elements' in the last min, not quads.

 

[Rock2]

and Russians claim the rules changes are driven by US/Canada...


Re quads: It was Plushenko who raised the issue of "higher value of the quad" against quad-less programmes of Lysachek and Chan.

Interesting how quads went up in value when Yagudin and Plushenko were leading the quad brigade (with some Joubert and Goebel but neither were consistent or artistic enough to be a threat)...and then now that everyone else is out-jumping the Russian men that we need to restrict quads and back off the value.

And US/Can leading the tech changes? Right.

 

[nimi]

Ever since pairs skating got good this quad 16 spots are not enough anymore by singles and dance standard. But that's also why pairs FS is the only event I can watch from start to finish and every team is good enough to be there. Maybe they should cut singles and dance to 16 too?

Nathan was 17th in the SP at Olys. Personally, I'm glad that the cut-off for singles isn't top 16 and therefore we sometimes get to see things like Nathan's great redemption FS.

 

[skatingguy]

Jackie Wong reacts to the name change from Short Dance to Rhythm Dance.

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/980952341976317952

 

[Deleted member 221]

I think the problem with pairs is the ratio of competitors who make the free skate relative to the total.

In the singles events, 65% made it to the free skate (24/37). In pairs, 57% (16/28). It seems like something is off.

The solution may not be to expand to 20 pairs. Another solution may be higher minimums. Or perhaps a different point system for pairs, with (for example) <= 10 needed to qualify three spots, <=15 for two, and everyone else one. A third (if expensive) solution would be bringing back a qualifying round, which would at least separate wheat from chaff based on a greater, more accurate demonstration of skill.

It's not a tragedy if the US or Canada has only one pair competing, but IMO, it is unfortunate when such a high proportion of competitors travel all over the world only not to make the final.... including with clean(ish) programs.

 

[Judy]

That would be awful if ice dance was removed. Why would they do that??

 

[VGThuy]

That would be awful if ice dance was removed. Why would they do that??

Am I missing something here?

 

[Sylvia]

Am I missing something here?

Posted earlier in this thread:

4. In a radio interview a couple months back, Lakernik expressed fear that ice dancing might be removed from the Olympics. There is no further info on that, however.

There also was a 2015 discussion thread, now in the Archives (so this has been floating around for a while now): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/ice-dance-might-be-eliminated-from-olympics.95662/

 

[VGThuy]

Posted earlier in this thread:

There also was a 2015 discussion thread, now in the Archives (so this has been floating around for a while now): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/ice-dance-might-be-eliminated-from-olympics.95662/

WHAT! Well, I hope the IOC paid attention because ice dancing was one of the most talked about events of the Olympics on social media, and positively. Maia was one of the most "engaged" athletes on social media for the Olympics which translates to having most value for their sponsors because of their visibility with the public according to this Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanag...dia-to-close-the-gender-pay-gap/#33be4cf2748f

If anything, the ISU and IOC needs to see what made ice dance a hit with the general public and tap in that shizznit. And not many complained about the medal results and think it came out fair for the most part (yeah yeah I know) so it's not like the worst days of ice dance where there was no movement and it just looked super corrupt. Now, it looks just as corrupt as the other disciplines.

 

[Judy]

WHAT! Well, I hope the IOC paid attention because ice dancing was one of the most talked about events of the Olympics on social media, and positively. Maia was one of the most "engaged" athletes on social media for the Olympics which translates to having most value for their sponsors because of their visibility with the public according to this Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanag...dia-to-close-the-gender-pay-gap/#33be4cf2748f

If anything, the ISU and IOC needs to see what made ice dance a hit with the general public and tap in that shizznit. And not many complained about the medal results and think it came out fair for the most part (yeah yeah I know) so it's not like the worst days of ice dance where there was no movement and it just looked super corrupt. Now, it looks just as corrupt as the other disciplines.

Exactly!