Dick Button's lament

[shine]

Uncle Dick sounds off on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/dick.button.90/posts/10214317301744224

I'm amused that he's still holding up Alina Zagitova as a great artiste. I mean, I like her and Lord knows she's incredibly talented, but she's a skater that a lot of fans point to when they bewail the decline of artistry!

I really think Dick might be getting a bit old. Or maybe he just really likes the Don Quixote ballet/music and tutus.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Restrained: kept in check or under control. Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISV1Rgd1ofA

you expect Zagitova to have "dying swan" or "gentle maiden" hands while skating to flamencoish DQ and modern anxiety sex-story "black swan"?

Since she was a kid, Zagitova had good musicality, good use of arms, to the beat, good positions, and that's why both of her coaches put long gloves on it, to highlight...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNL7qnU3tFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwJ1Jpk2Nk

she loves to dance all styles and practices all the time..... she can not possibly have "bad hands"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yoh8YHPllVo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpLvNaltiQ

... she is ON POINTES, for goodness skate... and how many US, Canadian, Japanese skaters dance on pointes?
https://scontent-nrt1-1.cdninstagra...845_860467210775979_5316725533088677888_n.jpg

 

[Vagabond]

He also has a short memory on his previous opinions of skaters. Around 1998, in IIRC, People Magazine, Button snarked about Witt that she an absolutely beautiful woman, and he couldn't remember a single memorable thing she'd ever done on the ice.

With good reason.

Still, he was able to find both faults and strengths at the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57R7aAY5QiM

I'm and that Aunt Peggy had previously timed the slow section of Witt's "Carmen" that lacked any difficult moves. She could be quite wonkish when she wasn't busy trying to find something nice to say.

 

[giselle23]

you expect Zagitova to have "dying swan" or "gentle maiden" hands while skating to flamencoish DQ and modern anxiety sex-story "black swan"?

I wasn't only talking about Zagitova. Extraneous arm movements are not beautiful no matter what the style.

 

[Japanfan]

And, let's be honest, there have never been more than a small handful of interesting and artistic competitors, in any discipline, ever. Yes, even in the "good ol' days," aside from a relatively small percentage of skaters, most programs were as boring as many are now.

This.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Dick Button was recently asked who are the skaters he will remember--

"I remember people like the Protopopovs, John Curry, Toller Cranston,” Button commented. “Yuna Kim was elegantly moving."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports...c-legend-buttons-advice-hanyu-dont-overtrain/

Dick has seen a lot. More than anyone here. Those are the best.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I wasn't only talking about Zagitova. Extraneous arm movements are not beautiful no matter what the style.

"extraneous" is subjective. obviously judges, for the last 2 years, don't think her arms are....

 

[arakwafan2006]

Are you guys comprehending what he’s saying? Doesn’t sound like it if your take away was Evgenia and laundry arms. His point was that we’ve gotten to a place where few skaters styles are truly being pitted against another. Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze vs Kazakova and Demetriev and seeing who’s style would win. Some say his mind is closed while lauding teenagers like Zagitova and Evgenia. Most of you turn YOUR brains off at the very first sentence you don’t like

 

[Deleted member 53443]

Me, I like the jumps and the athleticism of today's skating. And the more objective point system.

 

[giselle23]

Are you guys comprehending what he’s saying? Doesn’t sound like it if your take away was Evgenia and laundry arms. His point was that we’ve gotten to a place where few skaters styles are truly being pitted against another. Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze vs Kazakova and Demetriev and seeing who’s style would win. Some say his mind is closed while lauding teenagers like Zagitova and Evgenia. Most of you turn YOUR brains off at the very first sentence you don’t like

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He's using versus as a comparison, not a competition. He is lamenting the lack of diversity in programs, not saying one skater's or pair's style should win artistically over the other. And he has a point because there is a certain sameness to IJS programs. Nearly all ladies long programs, for instance, consist of laybacks into Biellmans, I-spins, 2-second spirals (or none), busy step sequences, 3-jump combos and lots of twisting and turning. There is no time for originality. Some of those things, like Biellmans, used to be unique because not everyone did them. Similarly, Michelle had her spiral and split falling leaf, Sasha had her I-spin and scratch spin, Shizuka had her Ina Bauer and fan spiral. All were different but it wasn't which of those styles was better than the other. The overall impression was what mattered on the second mark, not whether an Ina Bauer made a program more artistic than a spiral or whether an I-spin at the end was more dramatic than a Y-spin.

 

[Japanfan]

Dick has seen a lot. More than anyone here. Those are the best.

There have been great skaters and iconic performances since that time - Shen/Zhao (whom Dick himself compared to the Protopopovs when commentating on their 'Nutcracker'), Yagudin, Asada, Hanyu, and of course Virtue/Moir, already being called legends in ice dance (equal to Torvill/Dean, some even say superior). And Patrick Chan is often described as the best, or among the best, when it comes to skating skills.

Toller was unique in that he changed the style of men's skating and introduced artistry to the discipline - but men's skating was stuffy and formal, and badly in need of some color and freedom. There hasn't really been anyone like him since, but we do have Mishe Ge, who is equally creative and no less of an artiste (he may not paint, but he does choreography).

Dick is lamenting the past - with respect to skating, the 6.0 past - as older people are wont to do. Skating has lost some things due to the advent of CoP and the termination of compulsory figures. But it's also gained some things. Life moves forward, and FS evolves. That's just how it goes, with things being lost and gained along the way.

 

[Japanfan]

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He's using versus as a comparison, not a competition. He is lamenting the lack of diversity in programs, not saying one skater's or pair's style should win artistically over the other. And he has a point because there is a certain sameness to IJS programs. Nearly all ladies long programs, for instance, consist of laybacks into Biellmans, I-spins, 2-second spirals (or none), busy step sequences, 3-jump combos and lots of twisting and turning. There is no time for originality. Some of those things, like Biellmans, used to be unique because not everyone did them. Similarly, Michelle had her spiral and split falling leaf, Sasha had her I-spin and scratch spin, Shizuka had her Ina Bauer and fan spiral. All were different but it wasn't which of those styles was better than the other. The overall impression was what mattered on the second mark, not whether an Ina Bauer made a program more artistic than a spiral or whether an I-spin at the end was more dramatic than a Y-spin.

I think there was a lot of sameness to 6.0 programs as well. Skaters still had to perform certain elements. Dance was perhaps the most free discipline under 6.0, but is arguably still the most free discipline, because it doesn't require jumps (twizzles aren't quite the same thing).

I'm sure one could find as many differences as the ones you noted here between three skaters today. Like it or not, Zag's doing all the jumps in the second half of the program distinguishes her, as does Med having her arm above her head for all her jumps.

I do miss seeing beautiful spirals though! When a skater (usually a lady) does them today, she usually doesn't hold or finish the position.

But I don't miss them so much I want to see a spiral sequence become a required element again!

 

[overedge]

Anyone who says V/M are superior to T/D should be taken out behind the arena and stuffed in the dumpster along with the Thunderbird Arena Rat

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

But I don't miss them so much I want to see a spiral sequence become a required element again!

I think the idea of a "free skate", is that there should be no required elements.

 

[Sally1214]

Anyone who says V/M are superior to T/D should be taken out behind the arena and stuffed in the dumpster along with the Thunderbird Arena Rat

All I can say is .... "Run, Tracey Wilson ..... run fast!"

 

[Tinami Amori]

Anyone who says V/M are superior to T/D should be taken out behind the arena and stuffed in the dumpster along with the Thunderbird Arena Rat

I say it. Try me..... V/M is better than T/D, and T/D's Bolero has much simpler choreo and elements than anything V/M have done in the last 5 years.

 

[Japanfan]

I think the idea of a "free skate", is that there should be no required elements.

I was referring to the SP. Some years ago there was at least one season in which it was required for the SP, and it got boring real fast because the ladies all did the same spirals.

 

[Japanfan]

Anyone who says V/M are superior to T/D should be taken out behind the arena and stuffed in the dumpster along with the Thunderbird Arena Rat

I actually preferred K/P 'Air' to T/D 'Bolero'. It's one of my favorite FDs of all time.

 

[Meoima]

As a classical pianist, I would say the current pianists play lesser wrong notes because we expect people to sound like recordings, but by no means do they have better technique. Listen to Lazar Berman rage through Liszt's Transcendental Etudes and no living pianist stands a chance. Not even Horowitz thought he was a better pianist than Rachmaninoff, and I don't think a single living pianist think they have a better technique than good old Sergei. Any of today's violinists can outdo Heifetz technically? Don't think so.

In a way, skating is blessed to really have different schools of thought (or maybe they don't I really know more about piano than skating lol), and it's good for the sport that people love/hate different things. The streamlining of classical musicians today is a problem in my opinion.

I'd say in general, the current musicians have better technique. If you compared 100 musicians of today, their average level is > than the average of 100 musicians of 50-80 years ago. Education and technology help with all of that. This is well-taken notes by top musicians when they're old and do masterclass by the way. I remember a famous opera singer did some masterclass and said something along the line that the younger generations have developed better technique than ever before.

This is not mean to say the current musicians have better artistry and interpretation, but techniquewise I have no doubt they develop it well better than many years ago.

If you talk about Heifetz, well, listen to Hilary Hahn.

 

[bardtoob]

Me, I like the jumps and the athleticism of today's skating. And the more objective point system.

The protocols are more objective, but I do not think the scoring is objective. The scoring of Skating Skills is a disaster. Too many get 9 and above.

 

[berthesghost]

All I can say is .... "Run, Tracey Wilson ..... run fast!"

but OTOH if a mob formed every time a Canadian partook in OTT nationalism with no proportion to reality, there’d be riots everyday. It’s possible more would be upset about Osmond’s bronze if her country wasn’t the boy who cried “wuz robbed” every time a Russian bested then.

 

[giselle23]

I think there was a lot of sameness to 6.0 programs as well. Skaters still had to perform certain elements. Dance was perhaps the most free discipline under 6.0, but is arguably still the most free discipline, because it doesn't require jumps (twizzles aren't quite the same thing).

I'm sure one could find as many differences as the ones you noted here between three skaters today. Like it or not, Zag's doing all the jumps in the second half of the program distinguishes her, as does Med having her arm above her head for all her jumps.

I do miss seeing beautiful spirals though! When a skater (usually a lady) does them today, she usually doesn't hold or finish the position.

But I don't miss them so much I want to see a spiral sequence become a required element again!

There was sameness in the short program because of the required elements. There was a lot more variation in the free skate when it was actually free. Zag and Med's alleged differences (already nearly everyone is doing or trying to do the arm over the head) isn't driven by creativity. It's driven by the points system.

 

[Japanfan]

There was sameness in the short program because of the required elements. There was a lot more variation in the free skate when it was actually free. Zag and Med's alleged differences (already nearly everyone is doing or trying to do the arm over the head) isn't driven by creativity. It's driven by the points system.

Skaters still had to lay down the elements under 6.0.

Programs that stood out as unique and innovative were few IMO, just as they are under CoP.

However, there have always been artists/innovators - in addition to Toller Cranston, Ilia Klimkin comes to mind, and as mentioned, for today - Misha Ge.

The creative spirit is such that it will find a way, regardless of which system or box it has to work within.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Funny.... once in a blue moon Button said something nice about a Russian skater, and people complain....

Where are these blue moons? He usually had positive things to say about Slutskaya and Sokolova

 

[Tinami Amori]

Where are these blue moons? He usually had positive things to say about Slutskaya and Sokolova

Button's comments about top Russians (in 2000's) were simply vile and reeked of "cold war mentality". His comments were particularly inappropriate (for a national sports caster vs. private sports fan) towards Slutskaya, Sokolova and Plushenko. I can't quote him word for word, it was 15+ years ago, but the following is fairly accurate...
Irina: he constantly called her positions "ugly", and ridiculed her for "blowing her nose before a skate while millions watched her on TV and in the arena" (he considered it not classy).
Elena: he constantly called her a "cream-puff" in her younger days, suggesting she is "plump".
Plush: he made many uncalled for comments, one i remember was kind of like this.. "he uses his head like a bomb rolling into the enemy camp".

If you will insist, i can do a google search and see if i can find some links maybe.. But i will tell you one fact. Many Russian/USSR-American immigrants, including me, sent messages to the Network, stating that if he is not removed or modifies his commentary to more objective and less "anti-Russian", we, being one of the biggest audience segment for figure skating events on US, will turn off TV every time he is commentating, as we will not stand for our country of birth being unjustly insulted.

I have not followed him much into the early 2010's, but his 2018 Oly figure skating commentary, about Russians, is not negative or vile, even when he critiques. He did gave Russians critique, but it was constructive, not insulting... just as it should be: constructive.

[B]Dick Button[/B]‏Verified account @[B]PushDicksButton[/B] Feb 22
Zagitova is a Ballerina on the ice. Same quality as Ludmillia Protopopov

[B]Dick Button[/B]‏Verified account @[B]PushDicksButton[/B] Feb 22
A right decision, Medvedeva not elegant , technically strong, little performance...

[B]Dick Button[/B]‏Verified account @[B]PushDicksButton[/B] Feb 22
Medvedeva beautiful jumps, security good edging, steady curve in and out...

[B]Dick Button[/B]‏Verified account @[B]PushDicksButton[/B] Feb 22
Zagitova Beautiful jumps, little height, wildly secure....

 

[peibeck]

I don't think it's a secret Button cares for skaters he considers more "artistic" as well as steady jumpers.

One of the criticisms (right or not, it's subjective) is that the new CoP rules make skaters cram so many elements into their programs there often is not time for skaters to finish or hold positions or long edges. Changing the GOE's from a 3:3 to 5:5 ratio may only make things worse if skaters who labour through level 3 spins and steps now feel obligated to get level 4s.

 

[Japanfan]

Button's comments about top Russians (in 2000's) were simply vile and reeked of "cold war mentality". His comments were particularly inappropriate (for a national sports caster vs. private sports fan) towards Slutskaya, Sokolova and Plushenko.

And both he and Peggy would constantly make comments about Slutskaya and other non-American skaters such as "she doesn't have the flow/grace/elegance of some of the other skaters in the field, like Michelle Kwan/Sasha Cohen".

I couldn't bear American FS commentary in the 2002s - Canadian commentary was bad enough with its gushing over Kwan and Cohen. From what I've heard of Johnny's and Tara's commentary, I vastly prefer them to Dick and Peggy.

Plush: he made many uncalled for comments, one i remember was kind of like this.. "he uses his head like a bomb rolling into the enemy camp".

I remember him saying that Plush "bamboozles you with his arms". Which of course was a way of saying that Plush wasn't as great of a skater as many thought him to be.

 

[Marco]

I believe Uncle Dick's point was the lack of uniqueness of skaters / programs in general, because the rules force everyone to do so much within so little time and all the elements look the same to get levels.

And I wouldn't be so tough on his fond take on Zagitova. After all, the last DQs he saw from top skaters were Slutskaya and Hughes...

 

[Vagabond]

 

[Vagabond]

Dick Button fawning over Rodnina and Zaitsev
Dick Button in rapt wonder over Gordeeva and Grinkov
Dick Button enjoying wee Elena Vodorezova
Dick Button impressed with Vladimir Kotin
Dick Button loving Irina Slutskaya's technique, energy, and speed, if not her style

He lurves his Russians when they have good technique. Woe unto them, though, if they don't!