Vaytskekhovskaya's interview with Arutyunyan

As I was reading through this thread, I saw a lot of implicit accusations of lying or misinterpreting applied to Raf. Why would I doubt his word on any of this? He hasn't given me a reason to mistrust him. So I take what he said to be the truth. Nathan's parents made a bad decision that should have been left up to the coaching team. That decision likely cost him a medal, perhaps gold.

Yet, when others question something Brian may have said about the formal procedure of training a US skater, people bristled that Brian was accused of lying. No one is doing that, goodness forbid. But, also, do not accuse another esteemed coach of lying when he has done nothing in the past to deserve it.
 
Tavi said:
Sorry I don’t know - I was just responding to someone’s question. I don’t think the PSA certification piece is that bad - just some online tests I think. But it looks like he would need a US SSN for the background check and I’m not sure how hard that is for a Canadian. Or maybe the process isn’t a big deal and he never said what he is alleged to have said - I don’t know. I will say I went through a pretty extensive background check for my job and it was a pain.
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If he has ever skated or worked for any kind of fee within the US, would he not more than likely have a US SSN already?
 
VALuvsMKwan said:
If he has ever skated or worked for any kind of fee within the US, would he not more than likely have a US SSN already?
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Wow, here I am geeking out on poor Brian’s finances:D

No, he would not need a SSN, but he would need some way for the IRS to take its cut, such as an EIN. (that is, if Brian Orser, Ltd has a US EIN, BOLtd could be paid and they could pay Brian).

In my experience getting an EIN is waaaaay easy. Getting a SSN not so much. Presumably USFS wants SSN for a reason. And I have no clue whether Brian has one or is interested in applying.
 
el henry said:
Wow, here I am geeking out on poor Brian’s finances:D

No, he would not need a SSN, but he would need some way for the IRS to take its cut (that is, if Brian Orser, Ltd has a US EIN, BOL could be paid and they could pay Brian).

In my experience getting an EIN is waaaaay easy. Getting a SSN not so much. Presumably USFS wants SSN for a reason. And I have no clue whether Brian has one or is interested in applying.
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Recovering accountant here, but never a tax accountant and have never had my own business.
 
VALuvsMKwan said:
If he has ever skated or worked for any kind of fee within the US, would he not more than likely have a US SSN already?
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Maybe.

This whole conversation started off by someone saying that Brian had said he would never take on a US skater because there was too much paperwork or something. Then someone else corrected that to no, he said he’d only do it if the skater was a really special one. Then there were people saying what kind of paper work, etc. I provided a link which explains the requirements, which includes a SSN for the background check. Someone apparently didn’t read it and said no that can’t be right. So I posted the stupid requirements and the link again.

Since he’s already coached Adam, he may already have a SSN. Or it may be a new requirement. Or maybe for a Canadian they’ll accept the Canadian equivalent. Or an EIN. No idea.
 
mpal2 said:
Usually forms ask for a SSN or EIN interchangeably. I can't imagine why Brian couldn't use an EIN. Also a recovering accountant, also not tax or a former business owner. :)
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But none of this of course has anything to do with what USFS requires. As @Tavi pointed out multiple times, USFS requires a SSN. They can require all coaches to wear yellow polka dots and skate to Candyman. However Brian was paid in the past, to be certified by USFS he needs an SSN:p
 
morgan rye said:
Responding to Ashleys work ethic... I have always felt she has never pushed herself even in light of the obvious need to add content to her program. Goes way back to John Nick's time. When was the last time she even put a 3A 3T in the program when every lady of any consequence was doing it. And it wasn't really til she started working with Raf that she even tried to break the two foot landing habit. I really like Ashley and appreciate what she does well but pushing herself I don't think has been her style. Regretably.
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She didn't grow up on strong technique. Her younger body might have been able to get away with those, but not anymore. She was attempting 3lutz3loops in 2008 and 2axel3toes and 3flip3toes around 2010/2011 and would occasionally land them but without much consistency. John Nicks and Philip Mills should be given credit for cleaning up a lot of her elements, and then Raf was able to work with her on improved technique and managed to add technical content. Unfortunately the increased content also came with lesser attention to spins.

I feel talent-wise and technique-wise. Ashley probably achieved as much as she could, with 2 3/3s and backloading 5 triples in the free. She was never going to jump and spin like Gracie.

As for this season, I wonder if her strategy was to conserve her body and aim to peak at the Olympics instead of at Nationals. At 2015 she peaked at Nationals and Worlds was downwards. At 2016 and 2017 she skated better at Worlds than at Nationals. Her strategy would have paid off in 2018 as well if she were to receive her usual PCS at Nationals - alas she was around 2 points off and that's all that mattered.

Separately, I don't know how much truth there is to it, but she had said her prior concussion issues affected her spinning and she tried to avoid them in practice.
 
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el henry said:
But none of this of course has anything to do with what USFS requires. As @Tavi pointed out multiple times, USFS requires a SSN.
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I wouldn't take what it says on the website so literally. It's a bullet-pointed list, not extensive directions. Most likely an EIN would be fine especially as the SSN is really only supposed to be for tax purposes and an EIN works for tax purposes.
 
MacMadame said:
I wouldn't take what it says on the website so literally. It's a bullet-pointed list, not extensive directions. Most likely an EIN would be fine especially as the SSN is really only supposed to be for tax purposes and an EIN works for tax purposes.
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Not sure about that - a SSN is used to verify identity in many situations- but someone on Golden Skate who skates at TCC (presumably s/he is not an elite skater) said that Brian let his US credentials lapse when Adam started working exclusively with Ghislain. So I’m sure he knows the process, whatever it is. I would guess that as a Canadian citizen residing in Canada, they’d likely ask for the Canadian equivalent of a US SSN for a background check.
 
WildRose said:
Of course not. I wasn’t aware that Brian talked about it - if he said so then it is. He coached Adam and there are other Canadian coaches working with Americans so I thought it wasn’t a problem. My mistake.
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Did Brian discuss this in his post 2017 Worlds interview with TSL/Dave Lease? I feel like he may have. I will go back and have a listen.
 
kittysk8ts said:
Thank you! I am blocked from YT @ work. Is it discussed here @skatingguy, or was I imagining that (very possible, lol)?
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Yes, Brian talks about the 'hoops' - his word - that are necessary to coach US skaters. Brian talks about the similar standards that he must pass in order to coach in Canada. I would think that both the USFSA, and Skate Canada would want to streamline the process so that coach's on either side of the border can be certified by both organizations, but at the same time there are coaches who are coaching athletes from both countries so it can't be too hard.
 
skatingguy said:
Yes, Brian talks about the 'hoops' - his word - that are necessary to coach US skaters. Brian talks about the similar standards that he must pass in order to coach in Canada. I would think that both the USFSA, and Skate Canada would want to streamline the process so that coach's on either side of the border can be certified by both organizations, but at the same time there are coaches who are coaching athletes from both countries so it can't be too hard.
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Gotcha. If he considers them hoops, then hoops they are, I guess :)
 
MacMadame said:
Most likely an EIN would be fine especially as the SSN is really only supposed to be for tax purposes and an EIN works for tax purposes.
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SSN is required for the background check - it has nothing to do with taxes as USFS doesn't pay coaches.
 
I feel for Rafael in this situation as a coach that must (very delicately) deal with and handle family interference -- not an easy task.

Obviously, a skater does need to feel free and comfortable enough to voice their opinions and concerns as to where they see their program going and how they are responding to it in practice, competition or before a competition. However, in most circumstances, a coach is reliably tuned-in and can see certain things that even the skater cannot.

A coach’s voice and insight should be respected and appreciated more than it currently is in some cases, imho.

I hope that if this is indeed an issue with Nathan, that he will rely on and trust Rafael’s guidance, experience and vision more so in the future should they be traveling the next 4-year road together.

I cannot blame Rafael for sounding a bit disappointed (?) in this interview with how everything eventually turned out.

Thank you, @TAHbKA.
 
EIN is a tax concept: it belongs to an employer/business, not a person. Even if the Supreme Court ruled that businesses are like people, that doesn't fly when it comes to background checks :)

When I applied for PR in Canada, I needed to do a background check. My fingerprints were sent to the FBI for clearance. I suspect that if USFS needed to do a background check on Brian Orser, they would accept the Canadian equivalent. (RCMP check is used for PR and trusted traveler programs, but they might require a different intelligence agency check.)

As much as I question the intelligence of the people at USFS, I really don't think that if Brian Orser wanted to coach a US student, they would block him because he can't enter an SSN on their website. I would guess that it's a combination of hoops to which to jump through.
 
MacMadame said:
:huh: The coaches make income and therefore have to pay taxes on it regardless of who is paying them.
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But the coaches are not employees of U.S. Figure Skating. The purpose of coach registration is not to make sure coaches are paying their taxes, it's to make sure there is nothing adverse in their background that would make them a risk to minors. (There are also tests to demonstrate a minimum level of professional competency, but US Figure Skating is not the IRS and their concerns are limited to the governance of the sport of figure skating.)

For context, coach registration is relatively new - maybe within the past 10 years and having to produce an SSN was part of the new coach registration only for the purpose of conducting a background check.
 
Spreading the lie that Nathan’s parents decided the SP layout as fact seems having ulterior motives. Even Raf didn’t know who made that decision - Raf: “I still don't know whose decision was it.”

It’s admirable if it’s Nathan who decided to go for the SP layout. He must knew he could do it and his FS is the proof. “Go big or go home” is the mantra of great athletes. Olympics is the time to give it your all. If it works, your glory. If not, you go home.

It’s admirable and shows his maturity that Nathan owned his failure and apologized to Raf for his decision and failure. It’s laughable some armchair coaches here believe they know better than the athletes.

It’s admirable that Nathan dedicated the Olympic season to his family and skated for himself and for his loved ones. It’s inconceivable for an elite athlete that his dedication equates to blindly following his family’s directions on technical details. If so, he would not have achieved what he has achieved this season.
 
BittyBug said:
But the coaches are not employees of U.S. Figure Skating.
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I know that. I'm saying, if they make income in the US, they have a SSN or an EIN depending on how they have set themselves up. It has nothing to do with USFS. They could be working at McDonalds. (Mind boggles at the idea of Brian Orser working at McDonalds)

Anyway, this is all moot because I doubt Brian would turn down a great American athlete because he doesn't want to do some paperwork and I doubt USFS doesn't know how to do background checks on foreign coaches.
 
MacMadame said:
I wouldn't take what it says on the website so literally. It's a bullet-pointed list, not extensive directions. Most likely an EIN would be fine especially as the SSN is really only supposed to be for tax purposes and an EIN works for tax purposes.
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I would, if only because I highly doubt it has anything to do with taxes.
All background check services that I have dealt with require a SSN. It could be one out there does not, but I don’t know it.

And yes, even the great, vaunted and well known to absolutely everybody and their grandmother in figure skating Brian Orser should be subject to a background check. The *same* background check that everyone else is(y)

And why should he get out of it? Becuase he’s Brian Orser? And when someone files a lawsuit against USFS becuase something went wrong and they didn’t do the check, what is their response? Well, oh my god, it’s Brian.FullStop.Orser. Or they didn’t do the same check they do with every other coach: well, ya know, it’s Brian Orser.

There are much bigger principles here than medals, and I am shaking my head (not snarkily, in a questioning manner) that the principles seem to be less important than sending a hypothetical skater to Brian.

And this has got to be the greatest thread drift of all time, and I have done my best to contribute:biggrinbo
 
el henry said:
I would, if only because I highly doubt it has anything to do with taxes.
All background check services that I have dealt with require a SSN. It could be one out there does not, but I don’t know it.

And yes, even the great, vaunted and well known to absolutely everybody and their grandmother in figure skating Brian Orser should be subject to a background check. The *same* background check that everyone else is(y)

And why should he get out of it? Becuase he’s Brian Orser? And when someone files a lawsuit against USFS becuase something went wrong and they didn’t do the check, what is their response? Well, oh my god, it’s Brian.FullStop.Orser. Or they didn’t do the same check they do with every other coach: well, ya know, it’s Brian Orser.

There are much bigger principles here than medals, and I am shaking my head (not snarkily, in a questioning manner) that the principles seem to be less important than sending a hypothetical skater to Brian.

And this has got to be the greatest thread drift of all time, and I have done my best to contribute:biggrinbo
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The USFA gave Lloyd Eisler coaching credentials after Skate Canada suspended him - can’t be that much of a background check. ?
 
WildRose said:
The USFA gave Lloyd Eisler coaching credentials after Skate Canada suspended him - can’t be that much of a background check. ?
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Well, you have me there:lol: Yuck!
And let me make one thing perfectly clear: I think Brian is a fine coach. In fact, better than Rafael A.:dog:

To bring it back full circle....
 
Tahuu said:
Spreading the lie that Nathan’s parents decided the SP layout as fact seems having ulterior motives. Even Raf didn’t know who made that decision - Raf: “I still don't know whose decision was it.”

It’s admirable if it’s Nathan who decided to go for the SP layout. He must knew he could do it and his FS is the proof. “Go big or go home” is the mantra of great athletes. Olympics is the time to give it your all. If it works, your glory. If not, you go home.

It’s admirable and shows his maturity that Nathan owned his failure and apologized to Raf for his decision and failure. It’s laughable some armchair coaches here believe they know better than the athletes.

It’s admirable that Nathan dedicated the Olympic season to his family and skated for himself and for his loved ones. It’s inconceivable for an elite athlete that his dedication equates to blindly following his family’s directions on technical details. If so, he would not have achieved what he has achieved this season.
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Just because it has been mentioned that Nathan’s parents or family may have potentially influenced his decision-making at the Olympics does not automatically assume that people are zealously spreading lies or having ulterior motives by discussing this possibility.

If the parents/family have been mentioned, they will be addressed in the forum w/ no disrespect to them. Not every post or comment has to be considered dark and cynical because it touches on a subject or addresses something that might be less than flattering to the parties involved.

It’s common knowledge that there are many skaters, past and present, and their families, that are considerably strong-willed and bullheaded who prefer to call the shots re their programs, training routines, etc. So, with that being said, there is nothing wrong, imho, with discussing it so long as obvious, ott, cheap shots are not directed toward those in question. Otherwise, I could see where you might have a point and a genuine gripe, but for the most part, I do not see any ulterior motives.

Agreed, that Nathan has many admirable traits. He’s a fave, but having said that, I hope he will keep an open mind when it comes to the sound advice and reliable direction his coach has been hired to provide him.
 
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