Olympic champ Zagitova challenges US skater after criticism

[oleada]

Children should respect their elders.. Please call her Miss. Wagner.

Boo-yahhhhh

When I was 15 or 14 whatever... it was "Yes, Sir" and "Yes, M'am"

Take away her cell phone, 2 weeks.

No offense but this is such a dumb comment. When asked directly about Wagner’s criticism about her, is she supposed to not say anything because Wagner is her elder?

There is nothing disrespectful about her reply and Ashley can dish it and take it, too.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^ Said with humor, obviously.

But yeah children should respect their elders

"Let me see you do it" is the response of a child.. I know cause I have one that age.

Ashley was graceful that she didnt respond.. "Id love to watch you skate like a grown woman, with more than an ounce of maturity..." tee-hee

Because just like Ash can't do a 3Lutz/3loop backended Zag can't skate with any maturity. So apples or oranges.

 

[AYS]

I would support a rule change requiring at least one jump be done prior to the bonus. I just think it's better from the balanced program standpoint and would still give plenty of opportunity for the strong athletes to gain an advantage by putting more or harder jumps in the bonus.

As for this discussion I don't have a problem with the way either of them worded things.

 

[rfisher]

I don't think she's robotic. She's dynamic. I liked her short better than her long; I think she really performed the hell out that. Can she improve? Of course! I think people are exaggerating her lack of artistry, she's got a lot to build on, that is to say there is a lot there already.

ETA: I agree with Ashley with regard to the jump layout; but that is not specific to Alina nor is it about Alina's artistic ability. Its about a specific way of laying out the jumps.

I'm that people can't take Ashley commenting on it. As I said, I'm glad she's speaking up. I'm glad people are hearing. Maybe skaters and choreographers will develop a more dynamic non-jump first half that will quiet the criticisms, even. Then maybe they'll be making the case that jumps aren't the be-all and the end-all even when they are garnering those extra points. Its a nice challenge one way or another.

Um, if my student just won the OGM, I wouldn't be too concerned with criticisms. I suspect coaches and choreographers will be copying the winner and not the losers and certainly not those who didn't make their country's Olympic team. If you looked at the US novice skaters, 2/3 were trying the arm over the head variation in their jumps. They want to win and as long as that helps you win, it's a go.

 

[Twilight1]

Alina had a right to respond to the dig from Ashley.

And sorry to pour cold water but Alina is now an Olympic champion and Ashley is not.

 

[Wyliefan]

Alina had a right to respond to the dig from Ashley.

And sorry to pour cold water but Alina is now an Olympic champion and Ashley is not.

Has anyone disputed any of this?

 

[lala]

Is it really a rebuttal if it completely misses the point.

Ashley didn’t say it wasn’t a difficult lp. She said it was an lp that sacrificed performance for technical content.

How is “if it’s so easy you try doing it!” A direct response?

I don’t know why she’s even bothering to respond. She won. She won following the rules. Responding to a comment you find rude with an equally rude comeback is not the way of a champion imho

She responded because she was asked about it by the journalist and because she is only 15

 

[Twilight1]

Has anyone disputed any of this?

Did I somehow imply otherwise?

Think it is hilarious that people even care enough to report what Ashley Wagner snarks about to be honest.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I'm sure juvenile girls everywhere are quaking in their boots over Wagner's double axel-double toe.

 

[WildRose]

I always liked Ashley’s outspokenness, but she’s really coming across as whiny and desperate for attention now. It’s time for her to let it go and move on.

 

[overedge]

The linked source is RT, aka Russia Today, which is pretty well known as a Putin-supporting propaganda "news" outlet. So it isn't exactly approaching these comments from a neutral perspective, especially as the comments are coming from one of the only two 2018 Olympic gold medalists from not-Russia.

 

[oleada]

The linked source is RT, aka Russia Today, which is pretty well known as a Putin-supporting propaganda "news" outlet. So it isn't exactly approaching these comments from a neutral perspective, especially as the comments are coming from one of the only two 2018 Olympic gold medalists from not-Russia.

One of the Russian posters did a direct translation of the video interview in the From Russia With Love thread...

From Alina’s interview^
https://russian.rt.com/sport/article/486647-zagitova-chempionka-olimpiada-intervyu
Q: You probably heard what Ashley Wagner said about your free program.
A:Yes, I saw it somewhere on social media. I can say her words only motivated me, made me want to prove her wrong. But of course you cannot prove anything to people like her. Let her try and skate an identical program at the Olympic Games, it will be fun to watch, but I will not comment afterwards.
Q: Do you think current system favors younger skaters due to their physical abilities?
A:Yes, figure skating is progressing very quickly these days. There is already a queue of junior skaters behind me. A couple years from now, there will be a new generation of skaters, then another one. There will be a day when I will start thinking like Wagner and other critics. There are already girls in our group who do quads. But I will do my best to stay on top as long as I can.

 

[Vash01]

I would support a rule change requiring at least one jump be done prior to the bonus. I just think it's better from the balanced program standpoint and would still give plenty of opportunity for the strong athletes to gain an advantage by putting more or harder jumps in the bonus.

As for this discussion I don't have a problem with the way either of them worded things.

I want to see two jumps before the bonus in the LP.

Back on topic- why does Ashley make these statements that only make Her look bad?

 

[Vagabond]

It's such a shame that Yamaguchi and Kwan haven't been mentoring Wagner and Zagitova.

 

[Willin]

@Vash01 Because there are tons of people in the skating community thinking the exact same thing as her, but only she has both the guts to say it and the profile to get her opinion noticed. Dick Button said some much more controversial things on his twitter, but no one noticed.

Just because the rules reward it and just because Ashley can't do it (which she willingly admits) doesn't mean she has no right to comment on it or that she's rude for saying it. Look at this forum - most of us agree with her that a backloaded program isn't a balanced program - and that's all Ashley said, not that Alina didn't deserve to win, but that a backloaded program wasn't as appealing as a balanced one. I see absolutely nothing wrong about that statement.

At the same time, Alina has the right to respond because she was asked about it. She was also following the current rules, so I see no problem with her defending herself.

 

[skateboy]

Because just like Ash can't do a 3Lutz/3loop backended Zag can't skate with any maturity.

What, exactly, is so mature about a grown woman shimmying and throwing faux sass to "Hip Hip Chin Chin?"

 

[Nadya]

@Vash01 Because there are tons of people in the skating community thinking the exact same thing as her, but only she has both the guts to say it and the profile to get her opinion noticed. Dick Button said some much more controversial things on his twitter, but no one noticed.

Just because the rules reward it and just because Ashley can't do it (which she willingly admits) doesn't mean she has no right to comment on it or that she's rude for saying it. Look at this forum - most of us agree with her that a backloaded program isn't a balanced program - and that's all Ashley said, not that Alina didn't deserve to win, but that a backloaded program wasn't as appealing as a balanced one. I see absolutely nothing wrong about that statement.

At the same time, Alina has the right to respond because she was asked about it. She was also following the current rules, so I see no problem with her defending herself.

What is permissible for Jove isn't permissible for a bull. Ashley Wagner isn't Dick Button. She is someone who would have been in direct competition in Zagitova, had she cleared the Olympic selection. Badmouthing your competitors is bad form, especially when it's so obviously sour grapes.

Skating commentary is generally only appropriate from a) retired skaters no longer in the game or direct competition with those they comment about, and b) revered figures like Dick Button who have earned the right to their eccentricities. Wagner is neither, and the history of whining is not decorative. Shouldn't you be selling Corollas instead of wasting time on Twitter?

 

[brennele]

If backloading a program is problematic then rules need to be changed - it is really that simple. Zagitova was allowed to do it and and she did it. Last time I checked, Wagner was not in a position of authority to make the rules. The authorities governing figuring skating have had no trouble changing rules in the past. I recall the Zayak rule concerning too many jumping jack performances and the Katarina rule concerning inappropriate dress during performances. Sometimes, a problem is not envisioned initially but after a time, it becomes plain that something needs to be done. So they modify the rules - perhaps allowing only xyz number of jumps in the second half. I have not been following this sport very closely over the last few years but even I - inattentive that I have been - have come away with the impression that Ashley is a whiner and an excuse-maker. In short she has a big mouth and she often uses it to say very unflattering things about other competitors, all the while as she is in the public light. The problem with Ashley is not so much that she is outspoken; I can live with that. The real problem is that there is ever an element of sour grapes about what she is saying - she is super-critical of those who outperform her and then ever claiming that xyz thing is "unfair" as it pertains to her. For the record, I was not crazy about the whole backloading thing either as it pertains to Zagitova - it made for an unappealing program - but the way to deal with it is to change the rules not whine and criticize other competitors.

 

[berthesghost]

What is permissible for Jove isn't permissible for a bull. Ashley Wagner isn't Dick Button. She is someone who would have been in direct competition in Zagitova, had she cleared the Olympic selection. Badmouthing your competitors is bad form, especially when it's so obviously sour grapes.

Skating commentary is generally only appropriate from a) retired skaters no longer in the game or direct competition with those they comment about, and b) revered figures like Dick Button who have earned the right to their eccentricities. Wagner is neither, and the history of whining is not decorative. Shouldn't you be selling Corollas instead of wasting time on Twitter?

Wow

Thank god for twitter and the free world where anyone with access to the web can freely voice an opinion rather than be trapped in the snobbish old fashioned world you describe where certain elite get to say who can and can not voice an opinion. Go back to selling Carollas indeed!

 

[RockTheTassel]

I scrolled through Ashley's Twitter to see what else she's said. Almost everything about other skaters is positive, even regarding Zagitova ("A very impressive start" - after the SP). If she'd openly snarked or complained about everyone, then that would be sour grapes. But I don't think one critical remark among a bunch of complimentary ones is a huge deal.

Of course I don't blame Alina for her response either. I actually enjoyed her barb back.

 

[overedge]

What is permissible for Jove isn't permissible for a bull. Ashley Wagner isn't Dick Button. She is someone who would have been in direct competition in Zagitova, had she cleared the Olympic selection. Badmouthing your competitors is bad form, especially when it's so obviously sour grapes.

But because she didn't make the Olympic team, she *wasn't* in direct competition with Zagitova. And by that logic, anyone who has ever competed against Zagitova or might potentially do so in the future better not dare say anything about her

Skating commentary is generally only appropriate from a) retired skaters no longer in the game or direct competition with those they comment about, and b) revered figures like Dick Button who have earned the right to their eccentricities. Wagner is neither, and the history of whining is not decorative. Shouldn't you be selling Corollas instead of wasting time on Twitter?

If the only people allowed to comment on skating were those who met your "appropriate" criteria, then there would be very few people saying anything at all about skating. That would be extremely boring. Disagree with Wagner if you want, but don't say she has no right to state her views.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I thought that Wagner said outright that she couldn't do the program herself. My understanding is that she didn't like the rule and/or implementation that gives back-loading so much value. Did she say Zagitova's victory wasn't fair? That the judges and/or tech panel should have ignored the rules and taken marks away? That the CH score should have been dinged -- either by definition or Zagitova's program specifically -- because the program was back-loaded?

 

[Sylvia]

Tweeted by Ashley on Feb. 21: https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/status/966194279600283648

I also won't be live tweeting the ladies because it doesn't feel quite right. Just to give you guys a heads up!

 

[ballettmaus]

I will also say, with all my kindness, that criticizing competitors at the event you tried and failed to make is stupid because it makes you an easy target. Compete on ice, or shut up.

That's like telling actors/celebrities they should stay out of politics. Everyone has a right to comment and to have their opinion and to express it. You just have to accept and know that everyone else has the right to disagree with said expressed opinion.
Taking a dig at Wagner because she didn't make the team is petty. But not making the team does in no way disqualify Wagner from expressing her dislike of a backloaded program.

 

[skatfan]

I think Alina can take of herself against a competitor who whined about her PCS marks that left her off her own Olympic team.

That said, Alina is amazing in many technical areas like transitions, projection to the audience. I don't think her lines are that good and she does not hold them. They need to be held! Her crossovers are not very efficient either, she breaks at the waist a lot (and with the tutu it's not a good look). She doesn't get any flow out of her jumps, yet receives +3 GOEs all the time. Yes, they are high, but that's only one part of the features.

I would have given the win to Osmond, hands down. Everything was on, jumps are big, with flow and such great ease in her skating. But the OAR finally got an OGM at Pyeongchang...

 

[Nadya]

That's like telling actors/celebrities they should stay out of politics. Everyone has a right to comment and to have their opinion and to express it. You just have to accept and know that everyone else has the right to disagree with said expressed opinion.
Taking a dig at Wagner because she didn't make the team is petty. But not making the team does in no way disqualify Wagner from expressing her dislike of a backloaded program.

Who said anything about rights? This is not about rights, it's about what looks good. She has a right to comment, and I have a right to find her comments worthless and bad form, which I did. See, both rights exercised.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

What, exactly, is so mature about a grown woman shimmying and throwing faux sass to "Hip Hip Chin Chin?"

A woman doing it, not a child. so theres that. If Alina did it Id feel like Id need to cover my eyes.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

The other thing to remember is that the 10% bonus rule supposedly applies because a skater is more tired later in their skate. But if you don't do any jumps in the first half, you aren't going to be that tired. It's not only an unbalanced program that should be marked down in PCS, it's also against the spirit of the rules.

That said, Alina tried to score the most points. Good for her. The problem is the ISU, not Zagitova.

 

[brennele]

I think people would be more tolerant of Wagner expressing her opinion if she did not have a history of proclaiming this and that (usually as it applies to her) is or was "unfair." It is less an issue of Wagner expressing an opinion - which probably we all agree is OK - and more an issue of "yet again" i.e. Ashley is now whining about something else. She complains and whines too much such that when she expresses an opinion - even a valid one - people think it is just more of the same. The fact that Ashley ever thinks something was unfair to her is what turns me off to her.

 

[IceAlisa]

Alina's artistry is top-notch. She projects, skates to the music and not through it, holds her lines, has good extension, lots of transitions, etc.

We must be watching two different skaters. That really applies to Satoko or Kaetlyn. Alina rushes through everything, drops a pose without finishing it, on to the next, drops it, rinse repeat, her extensions are out of the plane, look awkward, her lines are broken, her back is hunched and she skates with a lot of upper body movement which tells you her power skating is not so powerful. Her feet are always and forever flexed. The phrase "holds her lines" made me

But the girl can jump and has a cool competitive head. That much is true.

You should really watch the TSL interview with Tom Dickson, one of my all time favorite choreographers, talk about Zagitova.

As to Ashley, nothing she said hasn't been said before. A lot of people in skating share that opinion. Should everyone be able to skate Alina's program to be able to comment on it? Those who criticize Ashley, can they skate hers?