IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[millyskate]

It always baffles me that people trust institutions because of their nature as institutions. The police, courts of law and the IOC. They are made of humans, amongst whom there is no greater or weaker ratio of integrity than anywhere else on planet earth. In discussions some people will consistently dismiss anything that questions institutions, awarding them benefit of doubt and endless opportunity to hide behind process without transparency or accountability. I never understand this. Life had taught me that often, institutions disfunction far, far beyond the wildest “conspiracy theories” out there. We all work. We all have come across incompetent, ill-intentioned people in our workplaces and ones whose pride stands in the way of admitting mistakes. Institutions also have these people.
Some institutions are far better than others at regulating themselves. I would say that everything I’ve ever heard about the IOC tends to indicate they are not one of those institutions successful at regulating themselves, and they have displayed a pattern of accommodating their own reputation, agenda and comfort at the expense of the common good.

 

[PRlady]

People are way too quick with conspiracy theories and such. The IOC is to be blamed for it.
They should have found a way to be fair. They had more than 6 months for that. And they didn't.

Depends on the definition of 'fair.' It's possible that the IOC thought it was fair not to invite certain athletes and not to publicize why, so as to leave them free to participate in other competitions if the sport's federation thought it was OK. I'd rather see S/B at Worlds than not at all, and if the ISU's standards are looser than the very strict ones being applied (rightfully) to Russian athletes in this instance, all to the good.

 

[missing]

It always baffles me that people trust institutions because of their nature as institutions. The police, courts of law and the IOC. They are made of humans, amongst whom there is no greater or weaker ratio of integrity than anywhere else on planet earth. In discussions some people will consistently dismiss anything that questions institutions, awarding them benefit of doubt and endless opportunity to hide behind process without transparency or accountability. I never understand this. Life had taught me that often, institutions disfunction far, far beyond the wildest “conspiracy theories” out there. We all work. We all have come across incompetent, ill-intentioned people in our workplaces and ones whose pride stands in the way of admitting mistakes. Institutions also have these people.
Some institutions are far better than others at regulating themselves. I would say that everything I’ve ever heard about the IOC tends to indicate they are not one of those institutions successful at regulating themselves, and they have displayed a pattern of accommodating their own reputation, agenda and comfort at the expense of the common good.

But isn't this situation more like King Kong butting heads with Godzilla rather than Kong terrorizing Fay Wray?

There are two mighty and powerful institutions involved here, both capable of or failing at regulating themselves and accommodating their own agenda.

I think placing athletes in situations where they knowingly or unknowingly cheat others is truly at the expense of the common good.

 

[Vagabond]

These things are not mutually exclusive. Russia did agree to give the IOC discretion - but the IOC can still be unfair in exercising that discretion, which is what looks like has happened here.

In jurisprudence, when judges have discretion, their decisions can be reviewed for an abuse of discretion. The R.O.C. could have insisted that the I.O.C.'s decision be reviewable by the C.A.S. (If the I.O.C. had refused, then Russian athletes would have had to compete as individuals or stayed home.) It didn't do this, so it really can't complain that the end result is unfair.

 

[millyskate]

But isn't this situation more like King Kong butting heads with Godzilla rather than Kong terrorizing Fay Wray?

There are two mighty and powerful institutions involved here, both capable of or failing at regulating themselves and accommodating their own agenda.

I think placing athletes in situations where they knowingly or unknowingly cheat others is truly at the expense of the common good.

The aim can be for the greater good, but the application of it by the institution shambolic and/or lacking in integrity. Having a good goal doesn’t preclude institutional failure or loss of credibility.

 

[BlueRidge]

Depends on the definition of 'fair.' It's possible that the IOC thought it was fair not to invite certain athletes and not to publicize why, so as to leave them free to participate in other competitions if the sport's federation thought it was OK. I'd rather see S/B at Worlds than not at all, and if the ISU's standards are looser than the very strict ones being applied (rightfully) to Russian athletes in this instance, all to the good.

One thing about this is that the IOC's primary purpose in all this is to show it can hold a clean Olympics. The IOC's reputation is on the line and that is what its primary motivation here is. Its not clean sports per se, or punishing Russia, its holding a clean Olympics. It may be that the top officials of the Olympic Committee believe the Olympics contributes to the greater good and that they need to clear their own name by their actions this year.

One can believe that and still feel they have not made the right choice here. Its nothing to do with conspiracy theories. I think the IOC made the right choice not to ban Russia outright, which would have added unnecessarily to international political tensions as well as penalizing athletes who were not involved in doping. Where I fault the IOC is in the decision to go beyond the ban on "Russia" as a country and to deny participation to a few athletes. I don't see why this was necessary. I don't see that it makes them appear more credible, though I think that is what they were aiming for.

Apparently criticizing the IOC for this causes some posters to shit their pants but I think its just a judgement call. I don't think the IOC needed to put these athletes, Stolbova and Bukin in particular I say as a figure skating fan, into this position where they should just be "thankful" that they can't participate in the Olympics and will ever have a cloud hanging over their heads but can continue with their careers.

 

[Lara111]

There is a reason they were not invited, and I didn't say, explicitly, doping. I noted an offense.

A leaky press is not exclusively reserved for Russian athletes. There have been plenty of leaks and dirty laundry aired in the past involving many other countries athletes. Research it, you will find plenty of stuff said about various athletes who have also been in hot water well before any actions or stiff penalties (if warranted) were handed down.

To suggest that neither Bukin or Stolbova have not been told at this late date why they have not been invited defies all logic.

It is upsetting to accept that these two talented (pair, ice dance) teams are not being allowed to participate, therefore, causing everyone to tie themselves into knots. However, it does not change the fact that there is a reason why this has happened.

I personally do not accept that the IOC (or any other governing body) decision is right/has a reason simply because it was made. We are all adults and know that mistakes and illogical decisions are made all the time. Decision to ban athlets from Olympics is a big one. It is one of the decisions that may destroy one's career and life. It should be explained and supported but the people who made this decision. This people should be kept responsible for this decision.

 

[PRlady]

One thing about this is that the IOC's primary purpose in all this is to show it can hold a clean Olympics. The IOC's reputation is on the line and that is what its primary motivation here is. Its not clean sports per se, or punishing Russia, its holding a clean Olympics. It may be that the top officials of the Olympic Committee believe the Olympics contributes to the greater good and that they need to clear their own name by their actions this year.

One can believe that and still feel they have not made the right choice here. Its nothing to do with conspiracy theories. I think the IOC made the right choice not to ban Russia outright, which would have added unnecessarily to international political tensions as well as penalizing athletes who were not involved in doping. Where I fault the IOC is in the decision to go beyond the ban on "Russia" as a country and to deny participation to a few athletes. I don't see why this was necessary. I don't see that it makes them appear more credible, though I think that is what they were aiming for.

Apparently criticizing the IOC for this causes some posters to shit their pants but I think its just a judgement call. I don't think the IOC needed to put these athletes, Stolbova and Bukin in particular I say as a figure skating fan, into this position where they should just be "thankful" that they can't participate in the Olympics and will ever have a cloud hanging over their heads but can continue with their careers.

As a fan of both athletes I think this is a personal tragedy and I'm really upset on their behalf.

As someone trying to analyze the situation, it's clear from the IOC's long list of criteria that the standards for Russian athletes at this Olympics were going to be particularly tight, and have to do with process as well as with results. That almost certainly was an organization trying to split the baby and not ban Russian athletes overall but take the country's sports edifice's sins very seriously -- as they should be. Other than East Germany during the Cold War, there doesn't seem to be a comparable case of state-sponsored cheating, so there aren't many precedents for the IOC to go by.

I yield to noone in my cynical belief that every large organization plays CYA first and foremost, and I'm sure that's a component. But other than saying, "bad, bad Russia!" and then letting every athlete compete, what were their choices?

 

[BlueRidge]

As a fan of both athletes I think this is a personal tragedy and I'm really upset on their behalf.

As someone trying to analyze the situation, it's clear from the IOC's long list of criteria that the standards for Russian athletes at this Olympics were going to be particularly tight, and have to do with process as well as with results. That almost certainly was an organization trying to split the baby and not ban Russian athletes overall but take the country's sports edifice's sins very seriously -- as they should be. Other than East Germany during the Cold War, there doesn't seem to be a comparable case of state-sponsored cheating, so there aren't many precedents for the IOC to go by.

I yield to noone in my cynical belief that every large organization plays CYA first and foremost, and I'm sure that's a component. But other than saying, "bad, bad Russia!" and then letting every athlete compete, what were their choices?

How about looking at ways to tighten anti-doping procedures for all athletes from all countries? For the deal with Russia, the punishment was their not participating as a country. That was all IOC could do. They didn't need to compound the situation by stretching to grab a few individual athletes. How does that make it any less likely the Olys will be clean? How does it punish the Russian doping any more than banning them as a country?

I don't see that it does. This is all about a punishment not about preventing doping going forward, about a punishment that would be credible for the IOC's desire to be seen as dealing with the doping that already occurred. I just don't think it was about clean sports going forward. So I don't see why the banning of Russia as a country was not enough.

 

[caseyedwards]

As a fan of both athletes I think this is a personal tragedy and I'm really upset on their behalf.

As someone trying to analyze the situation, it's clear from the IOC's long list of criteria that the standards for Russian athletes at this Olympics were going to be particularly tight, and have to do with process as well as with results. That almost certainly was an organization trying to split the baby and not ban Russian athletes overall but take the country's sports edifice's sins very seriously -- as they should be. Other than East Germany during the Cold War, there doesn't seem to be a comparable case of state-sponsored cheating, so there aren't many precedents for the IOC to go by.

I yield to noone in my cynical belief that every large organization plays CYA first and foremost, and I'm sure that's a component. But other than saying, "bad, bad Russia!" and then letting every athlete compete, what were their choices?

By saying the standards are tight and banning people without saying why you are calling them cheaters and dopers! That’s stolbovas and bukins futures! Bukin and not Stolbova was considered likely to continue after Pyeongchang so now Russia knowing Bukin has a cheater and doper reputation must consider dumping them! Russia can’t promote a banned doper cheater for four years as their main dance team! He’s going to banned for Beijing too maybe. Even if he’s not he’s a doper and cheater.

If you say the IOC standards were tight and Bukin is banned that says a lot! And it’s not even true because the last criteria for IOC allows “intelligence from anonymous sources”to dictate Russians involvement! Sounds like a lot of gossip was allowed.

If a country has state run sports like Russia how wouldn’t doping be state sponsored? Ioc talks about independent sports agencies but even in Russia they try to have independent but still state run.

 

[rfisher]

Just my opinion: I think the IOC wanted to not invite some athletes from every sport so they could make a point and looked for a reason to make that happen. Figure skating is the least likely sport to use illegal performance enhancing doping techniques ( there are more than just using banned substances), but there had to be a sacrifice so they looked for some minutia to use and it happened to be Stolbova and Bukin. According to her FB, the Russian Fed has filed suit in Switzerland with the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

 

[barbarafan]

As a fan of both athletes I think this is a personal tragedy and I'm really upset on their behalf.

As someone trying to analyze the situation, it's clear from the IOC's long list of criteria that the standards for Russian athletes at this Olympics were going to be particularly tight, and have to do with process as well as with results. That almost certainly was an organization trying to split the baby and not ban Russian athletes overall but take the country's sports edifice's sins very seriously -- as they should be. Other than East Germany during the Cold War, there doesn't seem to be a comparable case of state-sponsored cheating, so there aren't many precedents for the IOC to go by.

I yield to noone in my cynical belief that every large organization plays CYA first and foremost, and I'm sure that's a component. But other than saying, "bad, bad Russia!" and then letting every athlete compete, what were their choices?

I agree....if they release every single pc. of evidence that made them feel Stolbova should at least be banned(or not invited) to this Olympics& it reflects back to Sochi then you will have other countries demanding that they lose the medals and records earned. Ie Canada would want the gold in Team event and certainly US would want the silver. Sometimes it is be careful what you ask for. This way people can think whatever they like and gripe about it without facts to do anything about it.

 

[jiejie]

Just my opinion: I think the IOC wanted to not invite some athletes from every sport so they could make a point and looked for a reason to make that happen. Figure skating is the least likely sport to use illegal performance enhancing doping techniques ( there are more than just using banned substances), but there had to be a sacrifice so they looked for some minutia to use and it happened to be Stolbova and Bukin. According to her FB, the Russian Fed has filed suit in Switzerland with the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

I don't buy the theory of Must Sacrifice from Every Sport, it makes no sense for the IOC to do this. Particularly since by singling out Stolbova and Bukin, they sacrifice their partners as well. SOMETHING had to have triggered the IOC Committee's trip wires. I see the following possibilities:
(1) Stolbova or Bukin or both, have no idea what the trigger was. I find this hard to believe.
(2) Stolbova or Bukin or both, know what the trigger was, understands the reason(s), and want to fight anyway. I tend to discount this, since I doubt if the Russian Fed would sponsor a CAS/Court fight if there was an egregious example of either doping or serious administrative lapse--it could lead to opening a closet of potential skeletons.
(3) Stolbova or Bukin or both, know what the trigger was but don't think it merits being left off the IOC invite list. I find this highly probable, regardless of what they've come out with in social media. And something the Russian Fed would be willing to contest.

Either way, the IOC by now should have notified the athletes and Federation of the specific reason(s). If the Russian Federation is going to press a suit with the CAS, then they can expect the details of whatever the IOC has to be made public either directly or indirectly via leaks.

 

[Bellanca]

I personally do not accept that the IOC (or any other governing body) decision is right/has a reason simply because it was made. We are all adults and know that mistakes and illogical decisions are made all the time. Decision to ban athlets from Olympics is a big one. It is one of the decisions that may destroy one's career and life. It should be explained and supported but the people who made this decision. This people should be kept responsible for this decision.

I agree that complete transparency is required - from both parties, the IOC, and the athletes.

Everyone involved has an obligation to be entirely forthcoming for the sake of a healthy, legitimate and fully-functioning sport which would be a nice change of pace, wouldn’t it?

When maintaining a clean sport by addressing issues that surface, who deserves the benefit of the doubt? Fans will say the athlete, of course. Does the IOC know this? Yes, they do, but they still have a responsibility to keep the Olympic Games aboveboard as much as humanly possible, even if that should result in polarizing and upsetting the fan base.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don't buy the theory of Must Sacrifice from Every Sport, it makes no sense for the IOC to do this. Particularly since by singling out Stolbova and Bukin, they sacrifice their partners as well. SOMETHING had to have triggered the IOC Committee's trip wires. I see the following possibilities:
(1) Stolbova or Bukin or both, have no idea what the trigger was. I find this hard to believe.
(2) Stolbova or Bukin or both, know what the trigger was, understands the reason(s), and want to fight anyway. I tend to discount this, since I doubt if the Russian Fed would sponsor a CAS/Court fight if there was an egregious example of either doping or serious administrative lapse--it could lead to opening a closet of potential skeletons.
(3) Stolbova or Bukin or both, know what the trigger was but don't think it merits being left off the IOC invite list. I find this highly probable, regardless of what they've come out with in social media. And something the Russian Fed would be willing to contest.

Either way, the IOC by now should have notified the athletes and Federation of the specific reason(s). If the Russian Federation is going to press a suit with the CAS, then they can expect the details of whatever the IOC has to be made public either directly or indirectly via leaks.

So you say that Stolbova and Bukin both decided it would be Great idea to lie to everyone right now and in the case of Bukin have many people sign a letter making them endorse your lies and expect no negative consequences if the court exposes that you were lying and knew everything? To recruit so many in your lying is very dangerous move! Bukin and Stolbova lying to everyone makes no sense! It is perfectly reasonable to say they were banned and have no idea why because the official IOC criteria for banning allowed anonymous unconfirmed gossip submitted to wada to be considered!

 

[Vash01]

As a fan of both athletes I think this is a personal tragedy and I'm really upset on their behalf.

As someone trying to analyze the situation, it's clear from the IOC's long list of criteria that the standards for Russian athletes at this Olympics were going to be particularly tight, and have to do with process as well as with results. That almost certainly was an organization trying to split the baby and not ban Russian athletes overall but take the country's sports edifice's sins very seriously -- as they should be. Other than East Germany during the Cold War, there doesn't seem to be a comparable case of state-sponsored cheating, so there aren't many precedents for the IOC to go by.

I yield to noone in my cynical belief that every large organization plays CYA first and foremost, and I'm sure that's a component. But other than saying, "bad, bad Russia!" and then letting every athlete compete, what were their choices?

I believe China had done plenty of state sponsored cheating in the summer Olympics, but nobody raised a flag. When it comes to Russia, they are presumed guilty, using all kinds of criteria (the recent Meldonium case for example). Since East Germany doesnt exist anymore, those mistakes by the IOC cannot be corrected, but China got away with some cheating (e.g. Changing birth dates of some gymnasts to make them eligible when they were not. Its not doping but it is cheating)

 

[Bronxfan]

If any decision is going to be made - it better be quick. Opening Ceremonies are in a week and a half.

 

[Braulio]

So today, January 31 and no news about it and given many claimed that decisions should be around Jan 30-31 I'm starting to think that nothing will come about this

With the Olympics a week ago (Team competition) athletes need to be focused about it and not worrying about other things, I can't imagine the pressure and stresss Bukin and Stolbova are in with each day passing by and nothing clear comes out of this situation.

And if they are in the end allowed to compete I think mentally will be just out of the game, it could be an even more nightmare Olympics for them

No win here for any of them, sadly

 

[BlueRidge]

I don't think there is any chance they will be allowed to compete. Their exclusion is a done deal.

 

[kwanfan1818]

First, I believe that before the criteria were published, a lot of speculation went on, and some athletes believed the criteria would affect them, and others believed it wouldn't, based on speculation.Second, it's possible that even after the criteria were published, that it was wrongly interpreted and/or mistranslated.

I haven't seen any communication process described, ie, whether the IOC communicated any reasons to the NOC's, to the athletes, to both, or to neither. I haven't seen anything definitive to show that they were under any obligation to give any reasons. We have no idea whether a reason was communicated from the IOC, and, if so, whether or how that was communicated downstream. I haven't seen where Bukin has said that he still doesn't know why he wasn't invited: he might know now.

I would be very surprised if the IOC communicates anything directly to athletes for anything but appeals directly to the IOC, if that is even a possibility. All of the general documentation I've seen shows that the federations communicate and file paperwork with the NOC's which communicate and file paperwork with the IOC.

 

[barbarafan]

I believe China had done plenty of state sponsored cheating in the summer Olympics, but nobody raised a flag. When it comes to Russia, they are presumed guilty, using all kinds of criteria (the recent Meldonium case for example). Since East Germany doesnt exist anymore, those mistakes by the IOC cannot be corrected, but China got away with some cheating (e.g. Changing birth dates of some gymnasts to make them eligible when they were not. Its not doping but it is cheating)

Their figure skaters as well. Different birth dates were on the Federation website than on the documents used to attend international competitions. When it came to light the dates were removed from the website and it was said to be investigated with results being supposedly the parents had submitted these dates fraudulently and dates on visas were correct..In general guys were 2 yrs older than visas and girls about 2 yrs younger. Yea right...

 

[Willin]

It is a good question why China isn't punished for cheating. Maybe there's just no evidence beyond the birth date thing beyond the discrepancy - no smoking gun saying the Chinese government knowingly did this (and China could make a very weak excuse that that was a clerical error or rural births not having proper birth certificates or parents lying to get their kids into a prestigious sports academy). For doping, they may be ahead of the curve as far as testing technology goes or they simply don't need doping with how hard they push their athletes to train. I'd suspect a bit of both, but again there's no evidence.

I think the worst part is that there isn't a rule against cruelty to children in the name of winning medals - I remember watching clips showing the cruel training methods they used at some of the gymnastics camps or hearing that these athletes were not allowed to return home until they retired from the sport. One of their synchronized swimmers asked for a couple of days to go home because of a major family event but was not allowed to. While some athletes in other countries choose to isolate themselves in order to train, they begin this as adults - not at an elementary school age.

 

[misskarne]

One thing about this is that the IOC's primary purpose in all this is to show it can hold a clean Olympics. The IOC's reputation is on the line and that is what its primary motivation here is. Its not clean sports per se, or punishing Russia, its holding a clean Olympics. It may be that the top officials of the Olympic Committee believe the Olympics contributes to the greater good and that they need to clear their own name by their actions this year.

Great, except I can guarantee they've already failed, especially while they're focusing so hard on Russia. No-one can seriously believe that there won't be any dopers at this games now that the Eville Russians are banned, right? If the IOC thinks arbitrarily banning athletes from Russia to prove a point will create a "clean games", then they're straight up kooky-dukes.

I think this is the IOC on the defensive precisely because they did nothing about it for so many years - knew, and did nothing. They copped a lot of shit about the last-minute nature of the Rio bannings and you'd think they'd have it better organised this time, but no, their incompetence knows no bounds.

 

[allezfred]

People are way too quick with conspiracy theories and such.

I am that it was you who posted this.

 

[MacMadame]

So Bukin's a liar then?

He's not talking now that there is a court case. That's smart.

He said he didn't know why before Jan 27th. At that point, I am sure the Russian Olympic committee knew why. Maybe they hadn't told him yet.

Maybe they still haven't told him but since he's fighting it via CAS, I think he probably now knows. But it's not in his best interests to talk about it publicly and I don't expect that.

In jurisprudence, when judges have discretion, their decisions can be reviewed for an abuse of discretion. The R.O.C. could have insisted that the I.O.C.'s decision be reviewable by the C.A.S. (If the I.O.C. had refused, then Russian athletes would have had to compete as individuals or stayed home.) It didn't do this, so it really can't complain that the end result is unfair.

It's pretty clear to me that the IOC and the ROC have been in negotiations for a long time. This is the plan that the IOC and the ROC agreed to. Therefore, I believe it suited the ROC's purposes, whatever they may be. If it hadn't, they would have balked. If they balked, they would have boycotted (or IOC would have banned them to save face) and we wouldn't be where we are today.

However, it looks like Bukin and Stoblova are appealing to CAS so I'm not sure that the ROC didn't negotiate that. Or maybe they figured they didn't have to as it's a right the athletes have not a right the ROC has.

 

[Tinami Amori]

The results of CAS hearings, so it is said in blogs, quoting the Russian lawyer, maybe known by Feb. 02, 2018.

IOC accepted making at least one administrative (typing error) by inviting a banned athlete (Chudinov) as a "coach" without Russian side asking for it. Russian side sent an inquiry "why?" and IOC found it to be a mistake (although for some odd reason, media is twisting it as if Russians requested his name on the list, while Russians where the first ones to alert IOC to the mistake).
http://www.gettysburgtimes.com/sports/national/article_6ae214f5-06e3-503f-be6f-8f01047ca4d5.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...3391373867e_story.html?utm_term=.8366bcf4096d

Then there are couple of situations where IOC invited ACTIVE TOP athletes, but the Russian side did not include them on the final list filed with IOC (and there are speculations on the Russian side if it is an internal foul-play or admin. error). all articles are in Russian, and make no diff. now.

 

[allezfred]

@kwanfan1818 where did you hear the idea that Bukin failed to get s TUE? I missed that.

We all did.

 

[MacMadame]

There was some speculation up thread that he might have gotten a TUE after the fact for a medical condition but it was just speculation.

 

[Tinami Amori]

There was some speculation up thread that he might have gotten a TUE after the fact for a medical condition but it was just speculation.

I read your post from the corners of my eyes first, and "TUE" looked liked "DUI" for a second.... and i thought "oh! that's quite possible for a young russian boy"...

 

[Deleted member 40371]

28 athletes sanction annulled for Russian athletes out of 39