IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[caseyedwards]

“I consider the situation unfair and humiliating, I'm going to the Olympics, I'm not going to retreat from the goal," Zavarzina said, the words of which are quoted in the official account of the ROC in Twitte r.

 

[millyskate]

@kwanfan1818 where did you hear the idea that Bukin failed to get s TUE? I missed that.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't remember in which thread of many this has been discussed. He has a bronchitis issue.

 

[oleada]

I don't remember in which thread of many this has been discussed. He has a bronchitis issue.

I think this has been posted here but there seems to be no official information on this.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't remember in which thread of many this has been discussed. He has a bronchitis issue.

I think his bronchitis issue and medicine was a "speculation" as in "what if"...

 

[kwanfan1818]

So are all of the speculations about why the two of them were not invited. One of the speculations were that they were both omitted for the same reason.

 

[millyskate]

Right. It was my perception that on Stolbova’s side there are a couple of unconfirmed leaks that point towards the team knowing the reason, whereas on Bukin’s side sources tend to indicate he has no clue himself.

 

[caseyedwards]

All that’s known for sure in this time of Russians being banned for life from Olympics for doping Bukin and Stolbova were banned from Olympics as well. That implies they are horrible cheating disgraceful dopers of no value or merit and Valérie Fourneyon knows this!

 

[clairecloutier]

I think it is simply because it would be the first Olympic games for Bukin, and S/B were getting better results, on the other hand, Ksenia already has Olympic medals and honestly, she is in decline and probably she would retire after this season anyway. Bukin´s situation simply seems crueler.

I don't know why there need to be such comparisons, honestly. Both situations are pretty awful for the athletes involved, IMO. Stolbova/Klimov have been through hell the last few years, physically, just trying to keep skating to make it to Korea. I think that shows they wanted it as much as anyone else. As for impressions that they're in decline, it's true they're not skating as well as at Sochi. But they're still one of the top teams in the world. They won 2 GP silvers this year and made the GP Final and are #4 on the season's-best list. I'm just saying that they are deserving too, based on results. So the situation is sad for both teams.

 

[Yehudi]

Right. It was my perception that on Stolbova’s side there are a couple of unconfirmed leaks that point towards the team knowing the reason, whereas on Bukin’s side sources tend to indicate he has no clue himself.

And @kwanfan1818 ’s analogy is apt here. Years ago, Martins’ wife had accused him of domestic violence (she retracted it) whereas there was never a whiff of scandal about Gomes

 

[Bellanca]

It is ridiculous to think that Bukin's distress is any worse than Stolbova's. Both have a partner that this decision has affected, both must live w/ that, whether they did something consciously or not. If either one knowingly did something they should not have, one could argue that they should have been thinking about their partners beforehand and any repercussions the offense would ultimately cause. That’s what is sad…

 

[Deleted member 40371]

It is ridiculous to think that Bukin's distress is any worse than Stolbova's. Both have a partner that this decision has affected, both must live w/ that, whether they did something consciously or not. If either one knowingly did something they should not have, one could argue that they should have been thinking about their partners beforehand and any repercussions the offense would ultimately cause. That’s what is sad…

First and foremost, they have not found guilty of doping. If anything they were cleared of these offenses and hence they are competing internationally. The case had to have gone through WADA and cleared of wrong doing hence they are still competing internationally. My problem with statement such as yours is that we have no idea how many Canadians or Brits would have beeen axed under the same rules were applied, yet the same information for these Russians are made public and been judged on. IOC keeps on saying non invitation doesn’t necessarily mean these athletes haven’t doped. IOC’s own action has showed them to have exposed some very confidential information which they haven’t released for athletes of other countries.

 

[Bellanca]

First and foremost, they have not found guilty of doping. If anything they were cleared of these offenses and hence they are competing internationally. The case had to have gone through WADA and cleared of wrong doing hence they are still competing internationally. My problem with statement such as yours is that we have no idea how many Canadians or Brits would have beeen axed under the same rules were applied, yet the same information for these Russians are made public and been judged on. IOC keeps on saying non invitation doesn’t necessarily mean these athletes haven’t doped. IOC’s pwn action has showed them to have exposed some very confidential information which they haven’t released for athletes of other countries.

There is a reason they were not invited, and I didn't say, explicitly, doping. I noted an offense.

A leaky press is not exclusively reserved for Russian athletes. There have been plenty of leaks and dirty laundry aired in the past involving many other countries athletes. Research it, you will find plenty of stuff said about various athletes who have also been in hot water well before any actions or stiff penalties (if warranted) were handed down.

To suggest that neither Bukin or Stolbova have not been told at this late date why they have not been invited defies all logic.

It is upsetting to accept that these two talented (pair, ice dance) teams are not being allowed to participate, therefore, causing everyone to tie themselves into knots. However, it does not change the fact that there is a reason why this has happened.

 

[caseyedwards]

There is a reason they were not invited, and I didn't say, explicitly, doping. I noted an offense.

A leaky press is not exclusively reserved for Russian athletes. There have been plenty of leaks and dirty laundry aired in the past involving many other countries athletes. Research it, you will find plenty of stuff said about various athletes who have also been in hot water well before any actions or stiff penalties (if warranted) were handed down.

To suggest that neither Bukin or Stolbova have not been told at this late date why they have not been invited defies all logic.

It is upsetting to accept that these two talented (pair, ice dance) teams are not being allowed to participate, therefore, causing everyone to tie themselves into knots. However, it does not change the fact that there is a reason why this has happened.

So your position is Bukin and Stolbova are just lying to everyone right now?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

There is a reason they were not invited, and I didn't say, explicitly, doping. I noted an offense.

A leaky press is not exclusively reserved for Russian athletes. There have been plenty of leaks and dirty laundry aired in the past involving many other countries athletes. Research it, you will find plenty of stuff said about various athletes who have also been in hot water well before any actions or stiff penalties (if warranted) were handed down.

To suggest that neither Bukin or Stolbova have not been told at this late date why they have not been invited defies all logic.

It is upsetting to accept that these two talented (pair, ice dance) teams are not being allowed to participate, therefore, causing everyone to tie themselves into knots. However, it does not change the fact that there is a reason why this has happened.

If you think IOC standards should be that of Russian tabloid press or Fancy bear, then for me it is a problem. Also, these athletes are saying they have not be informed, how can you suggest they have been informed orherwise. Research it, that should help.

 

[IceAlisa]

Having considered the information available, here are my thoughts.

Rodchenkov is a morally corrupt individual who had no problem applying his considerable gifts and expertise to the doping program. However, when the lid was blown by the German documentary (I believe there's also a French one), he correctly assessed that if he and his lab records were eliminated, there would not be much proof of malfeasance. That had to be going through the heads of the Russian PTB. His colleague who was key to the program did die of a sudden heart attack. Because Rodchenkov is a survivalist and is very good at being a few steps ahead of the game, he decided to defect and be the whistle blower.

Since then, his testimony has been corroborated by forensic evidence. The operation urine swap in Sochi was equal parts impressive and disgusting. Rodchenkov pointed the investigators in the right direction by telling them to look for abnormal NaCl levels (salt) in urine that was added to simulate specific gravity. No wonder someone was caught with salt levels incompatible with life in their urine. And then the scratches on the supposedly temper-proof bottles are significant and could only have been produced by a device used to illegally pry the bottles open. Another case involved two sets of DNA in the urine. The Russians were very good but not perfect and Rodchenkov, being behind the whole thing, was the right person to help the investigation.

What seems to be getting lost in the Russian media is the fact that there was a long standing, state of the art state sponsored doping program. They are too busy denying and screaming woe is me, evil Western conspiracy. I recommend the movie Icarus to anyone who is interested in the details.

 

[Bellanca]

So your position is Bukin and Stolbova are just lying to everyone right now?

No. Not outright lying, but I think they possess more information than what has been (currently) released, or, on second thought, ‘comfortably’ shared with the media. That might be the better clarification.

The IOC’s decision is/was being challenged, right? In that case, any reasonable defense/defense attorney will tell you to keep yourself in check so that you have a chance, which means don’t incriminate yourself even if you feel that you’ve done nothing wrong.

In this case, someone doesn’t agree with that, someone thinks something unacceptable has happened. That is why this thread is melting down because we have country loyalty, fan base loyalty, emotions, etc. Nothing wrong w/ that, but something did occur that persuaded the IOC to reach a conclusion and make the decision they have which is keeping two high-profile athletes @ home. It’s upsetting, as this thread clearly demonstrates.

 

[Frau Muller]

Right. It was my perception that on Stolbova’s side there are a couple of unconfirmed leaks that point towards the team knowing the reason, whereas on Bukin’s side sources tend to indicate he has no clue himself.

I read here — and Russia TV Channel 1 mentioned a couple of days ago — that Stolbova’s Sochi pee-sample bottle had scratches...signs of tampering. (Don’t others remember reading this?) Absolutely no reason has been given for Bukin’s exclusion.

 

[Bellanca]

If you think IOC standards should be that of Russian tabloid press or Fancy bear, then for me it is a problem. Also, these athletes are saying they have not be informed, how can you suggest they have been informed orherwise. Research it, that should help.

People can be persuaded and/or advised to say a lot of things, or not to say a lot of things. Sometimes, it can even be helpful.

I respect your opinion, @Domshabfan, and it occurs to me that we will not be in agreement about much regarding this issue, anytime soon. Solution? Agree to disagree. Otherwise, ...

 

[caseyedwards]

No. Not outright lying, but I think they possess more information than what has been (currently) released, or, on second thought, ‘comfortably’ shared with the media. That might be the better clarification.

The IOC’s decision is/was being challenged, right? In that case, any reasonable defense/defense attorney will tell you to keep yourself in check so that you have a chance, which means don’t incriminate yourself even if you feel that you’ve done nothing wrong.

In this case, someone doesn’t agree with that, someone thinks something unacceptable has happened. That is why this thread is melting down because we have country loyalty, fan base loyalty, emotions, etc. Nothing wrong w/ that, but something did occur that persuaded the IOC to reach a conclusion and make the decision they have which is keeping two high-profile athletes @ home. It’s upsetting, as this thread clearly demonstrates.

Ioc did say not to assume anything negative about not being invited. Fourneyron said don’t question anyone’s integrity! Why you questioning his integrity?

I read here — and Russia TV Channel 1 mentioned a couple of days ago — that Stolbova’s Sochi pee-sample bottle had scratches...signs of tampering. (Don’t others remember reading this?) Absolutely no reason has been given for Bukin’s exclusion.

Sotnikova had scratches but rodchenkov said no figure skating dopers! But also scratches don’t mean anything because tretiakov bottles had no scratches. Scratches were not necesssry because scratches meant bad tampering in some cases and just user error in other instances. Scratches mean everything and nothing. Depends on what rodchenkov says. Scratches with Sotnikova? Normal. Scratches with Zubkov? Cheating. Depends on duchess list.

 

[Bellanca]

@caseyedwards, I am not questioning Bukin's integrity, or Stolbova's, for that matter. However, it is interesting that you mentioned Bukin's integrity, but not Stolbova's integrity, at least in your response to me.

Bottom line, and what I am trying to get at, is there is a reason for the exclusion. It could very well be a medication used to treat a physical condition that was not properly approved. I'm simply saying there is a reason. The two skaters in question can probably guess and draw a conclusion for themselves what those reasons are. Neither skater is that conveniently clueless, unless advised to be. Btw, that is not meant to be an insult So, please, no need to get defensive about it...

It is what it is.

 

[caseyedwards]

@caseyedwards, I am not questioning Bukin's integrity, or Stolbova's, for that matter. However, it is interesting that you mentioned Bukin's integrity, but not Stolbova's integrity, at least in your response to me.

Bottom line, and what I am trying to get at, is there is a reason for the exclusion. It could very well be a medication used to treat a physical condition that was not properly approved. I'm simply saying there is a reason. The two skaters in question can probably guess and draw a conclusion for themselves what those reasons are. Neither skater is that conveniently clueless, unless advised to be. Btw, that is not meant to be an insult So, please, no need to get defensive about it...

It is what it is.

An athlete not taking precautions on taking medications and not seeking approval is a violation of rules! It’s questioning their integrity.

I do talk about Stolbova. If she had scratches it doesn’t necessarily mean anything because Sotnikova had scratches but also a banned person who had their medals taken away didn’t have scratches.

They are both saying they can’t guess so there is a clear statement of them both being liars.

 

[Vagabond]

Is Bukin's partner claiming that she doesn't know why she wasn't invited? The guidelines posted back at the beginning of this thread seem to indicate that the only way a Pairs or Ice Dance skater could receive an indication is if both he and his partner were invited. (In other words, Bukin couldn't suddenly team up with Betina Popova.)

While I do think more transparency would be in order, Russia did agree to give the I.O.C. sole discretion as to whom to invite, so it's pointless to claim that the I.O.C. is being unfair.

 

[misskarne]

While I do think more transparency would be in order, Russia did agree to give the I.O.C. sole discretion as to whom to invite, so it's pointless to claim that the I.O.C. is being unfair.

These things are not mutually exclusive. Russia did agree to give the IOC discretion - but the IOC can still be unfair in exercising that discretion, which is what looks like has happened here.

And somehow, I doubt Russia agreed that the IOC could just toss athletes from the Olympics without providing an adequate reason - and no adequate reasons have been supplied in this case.

 

[MarieM]

People are way too quick with conspiracy theories and such. The IOC is to be blamed for it.
They should have found a way to be fair. They had more than 6 months for that. And they didn't.

 

[skatingguy]

These things are not mutually exclusive. Russia did agree to give the IOC discretion - but the IOC can still be unfair in exercising that discretion, which is what looks like has happened here.

And somehow, I doubt Russia agreed that the IOC could just toss athletes from the Olympics without providing an adequate reason - and no adequate reasons have been supplied in this case.

You don't know that. Just because we don't the know answers doesn't mean that they don't exist and haven't been conveyed to the athletes in question. The Russians have been running a very good propaganda campaign for their own people on this issue for more than two years now. Why would we believe anything coming out of the governing bodies of Russian sports?

People are way too quick with conspiracy theories and such. The IOC is to be blamed for it. They should have found a way to be fair. They had more than 6 months for that. And they didn't.

Right, we shouldn't conspiracy theories, and you've clearly bought into the conspiracy theory put forward by the Russians that this is the fault of the IOC. Yes, the IOC should have taken these decisions earlier, but the Russians were the ones running the doping scheme. The Russians were the ones covering it up, and continuing to deny it's existence, and hindering the activities of international sports organization to investigate it. Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean that the process wasn't fair.

 

[misskarne]

You don't know that. Just because we don't the know answers doesn't mean that they don't exist and haven't been conveyed to the athletes in question. The Russians have been running a very good propaganda campaign for their own people on this issue for more than two years now. Why would we believe anything coming out of the governing bodies of Russian sports?

So Bukin's a liar then?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

So the decision regarding the 39 Russian athletes banned for life vs IOC will be released tomorrow at 5 pm Korea standard time.

http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_5422_et_al_announcedate.pdf

 

[Anyasnake]

So the decision regarding the 39 Russian athletes banned for life vs IOC will be released tomorrow at 5 pm Korea standard time.

http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_5422_et_al_announcedate.pdf

For life ?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

For life ?

banned for life at the Olympics, these are 39 out of the 42 athletes who were implicated in the Sochi doping scandal...Sorry for not being clear.