Yuzuru Hanyu Cheer Thread

[Meoima]

Jere Longman has written about skating for at least 20 years. He’s not new to skating at all.

I don't have that feeling when I read the article, but maybe he was trying to reach out to non-fans so his writing was constructed that way.

I don't know if Yuzuru will bring 4lz to Olympics at this rate. Since most other skaters have watered down their layout and focus on skating clean, maybe Yuzuru will do the same.

I will miss this outstanding 4lz with delayed rotation: https://twitter.com/hanyupamelia/status/954851893850923008

 

[clairecloutier]

Jere Longman has written about skating for at least 20 years. He’s not new to skating at all.

True, but he only covers it now and then, not on a regular basis. Mostly for the big events.

 

[Fairuza]

And one competition was all he’s ever seen Yuzuru in.

 

[Meoima]

An analysis of top men transitions in the SP, Yuzuru's data is the most amazing: https://youtu.be/wNKwfeuGUN8

 

[antmanb]

An analysis of top men transitions in the SP, Yuzuru's data is the most amazing: https://youtu.be/wNKwfeuGUN8

Sorry but I call BS on Hanyu's statistics in that youtube link. I just re-watched his COR SP - the Eurosport version (sadly the camera was not on his feet the whole time) and I counted 15 cross-overs in his programme and I suspect at least another two were done when the camera wasn't showing his feet so I'd say 17 in total - so totally in the ballpark as the rest of the men.

I don't understand why people have to fabricate this stuff - he's a beautiful skater with pretty much the best PCS out there - there's no need to make things up to argue the point, just use reality.

 

[Meoima]

Sorry but I call BS on Hanyu's statistics in that youtube link. I just re-watched his COR SP - the Eurosport version (sadly the camera was not on his feet the whole time) and I counted 15 cross-overs in his programme and I suspect at least another two were done when the camera wasn't showing his feet so I'd say 17 in total - so totally in the ballpark as the rest of the men.
I don't understand why people have to fabricate this stuff - he's a beautiful skater with pretty much the best PCS out there - there's no need to make things up to argue the point, just use reality.

- The Russian blogger applies the same way of counting to everyone. On their blog, they state the moves during the Step Sequence are not counted, and unclear moves are not counted. If they are unsure about some moves, they do not count them.
- The Russian blogger does not count moves they consider as cross-roll or half-cross-steps. There is always some margin of error/different definition/opinion when people count something. My friend who watched Hanyu's CoR and she thinks it's just 12 in her opinion, not 17 like you stated. Overall it also depends on what each person defines as "a clear crossover".
- I remember watching Hanyu's SP live at ACI (https://youtu.be/5fZe8sgGn4k) and it's just 10 crossovers in my opinion. Same issue here, what I count as a full crossover might be different from you.
- I counted Kolyada SP, his number was like around 18-20 crossovers almost which is higher than the numbers stated in the video (and the blog). So my definition/opinion is also different from the blogger. But it might be just because they used a different standard.
- Your claim that this blogger fabricated numbers is too much. They actually were easy on the numbers for everyone.

 

[antmanb]

A cross-over is a cross over - it's clear to anyone who watches skating and skates themselves. Hanyu doesn't do any forward cross overs in the programme only back cross-overs and there are 15 clear back cross-overs that are used to generate speed, and two cross-overs that look more choreographic movements than things that generate speed. I've watched both the Autumn classic and COR programmes - Autumn classic I counted 14 cross-overs plus the two more choreographic ones.

Like I said Hanyu's the cream of the crop in the men's field, he doesn't need to have his skills exaggerated to come out on top.

 

[Meoima]

A cross-over is a cross over - it's clear to anyone who watches skating and skates themselves. Hanyu doesn't do any forward cross overs in the programme only back cross-overs and there are 15 clear back cross-overs that are used to generate speed, and two cross-overs that look more choreographic movements than things that generate speed. I've watched both the Autumn classic and COR programmes - Autumn classic I counted 14 cross-overs plus the two more choreographic ones.

Like I said Hanyu's the cream of the crop in the men's field, he doesn't need to have his skills exaggerated to come out on top.

Like I said. They use different standards and they apply their very same method on all the skaters. You can't say the blogger fabricated things even if there is a margin of errors. They're actually easy on all the numbers for these skaters.

The Russian blogger stated that they did not count choreographic moves and moves that they considered as an unclear or half-cross step. And they do that kind of counting for everyone. If you want to give them your feedback then go sport.ru, they have the original links in the description.

Russian skating fans have a lot of fanwork articles. It does not mean they're representing judges or ISU specialists. They're doing things most fans don't do. Disagree with them? Go there and talk to them. I count them as one of the references. For example https://t.co/YCKqODIUes

Here they somehow count the height of top skaters' jump. Some people have pointed out this guy's measuring method incorrect. It is fine, they have different opinions and never affect the judging. At least this blogger applies the same method on everyone, so if there is a margin of error, it appears on everyone's numbers in the end.

One thing is to call them making mistakes in their counting, but another thing to claim that they fabricate data. You have to understand how they come up with the numbers in the first place before claiming anything.

If you want to ask them why they have such numbers, or state that their numbers should be adjusted, you do your research with their posts and tell them your opinions. They always stated their reasons and methods in the lengthy posts and welcome feedback, if you have time to read and give them reply.

 

[antmanb]

Like I said. The use different standards and they apply their very same method on all the skaters. You can't say the blogger fabricated things even if there is a margin of errors. They're actually easy on all the numbers for these skaters.

It's all subjective if you don't count every single cross movement as a cross over so I don't believe they have uniformly "applied the same method" on all skaters.

They're dressing up their opinions as facts. 10 is a wildly different number to 15, and there are 15 clear cross overs in that programme. I have eyes, I can see them!

I have no desire to engage with them I'm talking about it here where you linked to it.

I disagree with their numbers. You're not going to convince me Hanyu only does 10 cross overs in his SP, and I'm clearly not going to convince you either. It doesn't particularly matter, he's a beautiful skater, and that's all that does matter.

 

[Meoima]

It's all subjective if you don't count every single cross movement as a cross over so I don't believe they have uniformly "applied the same method" on all skaters.

They're dressing up their opinions as facts. 10 is a wildly different number to 15, and there are 15 clear cross overs in that programme. I have eyes, I can see them!

I have no desire to engage with them I'm talking about it here where you linked to it.

I disagree with their numbers. You're not going to convince me Hanyu only does 10 cross overs in his SP, and I'm clearly not going to convince you either. It doesn't particularly matter, he's a beautiful skater, and that's all that does matter.

Again, as I have said, I have no problem with people disagreeing with fan work articles. I am not fully agreeing with them either especially the articles about skater jump height. My Russian is Zero so I can't even talk to them without ask my Russian friend for help. It's kinda troublesome to communicate with them.

Sometimes before I asked them why they have this or that and they explained why. Also, they have some different definitions for some moves, to them, it's not always "crossing the legs" = crossovers. Each community might have different definitions for some moves even the difference might be tiny. They even have terms for some no-name moves that I could not even find names in English. One time I asked them what they meant as a 'grapevine' move and it's much different from what I thought in English.

I don't call their works as fabricating. If they make mistakes, that is, then it's fine. The thing is you never read their history of posting (they have 832463473 articles in Russian skating forum btw) so it's kinda too far to claim them intentionally fabricated numbers? Aren't you jumping to conclusion too fast when you only judge like 1/100 of what they have released?

At least these Russian fans are ACTUALLY doing something. We English skating fans don't bother to do as much. Most of the time I only wish that English skating fans have like 10% of the contribution that the Russian, Japanese, Italian... fans etc are having. So what if they have errors, that's why feedback in forums are for.

If you read most of their original articles you might see why they come up with their numbers, agreeing with them or not is up to debate after you see the whole thing in context. Many Russian skating fans give them comments and talk out why they have such results. The thing is I only have access to google translate and other poorly translated posts by a Ukraine fan who is not much good at English. I can't even understand like 35% of the translation. I count them as one of the references, there's no problem with that.

PS: I am not even an English native speaker. When I talk with skaters at my ice rink, or with the Ukraine coach/Russian coach/English fans... there're always some different definitions and terms each side use.

 

[Meoima]

I have no desire to engage with them I'm talking about it here where you linked to it.

For your reference, these fans have written numerous articles about skating in general in all kind of disciplines, they even analyzed Meryl and Charlie's programs at Sochi and analyzed why they won, they also analyzed ladies' field.
https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/dobroefk/

They do not write many thousands of words (and seriously, each of their posts is crazily long) for the sake of fabrication as you accuse them of. You disagree with them, that's fine. But you accused them of fabrication is another thing, especially when you do not read hundreds of other posts they wrote before. Not to mention the video is just a tiny part of their article which lasts for 15 pages of A4 in which they went into details for all single moves they counted and quoted ISU handbook. And do you know how many articles they have written? I mean it's A LOT.

They get no money, no fame (cause they're anonymous) from all of this. They did not even ask anyone to translate their posts into English. People who made videos based on their posts and analysis also give links to the original Russian so if there is any feedback, other fans might come to the original Russian article to comment.

It is fine if you disagree with their posts and think there are errors in their calculation, but at least they deserve good feedback when people clearly understand their method and definition, judging them fair and square after many thousands of words. The issue with your tone is that you disregard their effort without even looking into the whole context, you assume they're just fabricating something without even trying to look up the original links and statements.

It's ok people have different opinions and statements, it's ok to point out things you consider incorrect. But I would never call people who have put so much effort in long essays analyzing various skating performances for many years as fabricating, especially when I know they get no virtual benefits for all the hours they spent for this.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

It's all subjective if you don't count every single cross movement as a cross over so I don't believe they have uniformly "applied the same method" on all skaters.

Have you done this? Have you gone through all the short programs of all those skaters and counted their crossovers using your own criteria as to what does or doesn't constitute a crossover?

Data analysis makes up a big part of what I do for a living and I agree with Meoima: It's fine to disagree with their analysis but not fine to accuse them of "fabricating results" just because you don't agree with those results. It's not at all unusual for two parties, both acting in good faith, to perform an analysis of the same thing and come up with different results--sometimes wildly different results.

 

[antmanb]

Have you done this? Have you gone through all the short programs of all those skaters and counted their crossovers using your own criteria as to what does or doesn't constitute a crossover?

Not every single programme - I did Hanyu first, and watched COR and Autumn Classic twice each and find COR to have 17 and Autumn Classic to have 16 Crossovers compared to the 10 stated in the youtube link.

I then looked at Chan, Jin, Chen and Kolyada just once and counted the crossovers. Chan and Chen I counted exactly the same as the youtube link (19 and 18 respectively). Jin I counted one more cross over (21 as opposed to 20) and Kolyada I counted one more cross over too (17 as opposed to 16, but the questionable one there is the cross in front before the rocker he does into the 3A, so it could have been 16).

Data analysis makes up a big part of what I do for a living and I agree with Meoima: It's fine to disagree with their analysis but not fine to accuse them of "fabricating results" just because you don't agree with those results. It's not at all unusual for two parties, both acting in good faith, to perform an analysis of the same thing and come up with different results--sometimes wildly different results.

Once I got to the fourth skater and I was basically agreeing with all the numbers, i didn't look at the rest (i'm happy to do so later and see what i find). But if i'm basically agreeing with all the others and not with Hanyu the only conclusion was that the number for Hanyu is either a huge mistake or its been fabricated. Most of the skaters analysed were in the high teens range, and Hanyu said to be 10. Hanyu is actually at 17 on the performance reviewed (COR) so that's one serious difference, too big a difference to be a simple mistake.

 

[Meoima]

Once I got to the fourth skater and I was basically agreeing with all the numbers, i didn't look at the rest (i'm happy to do so later and see what i find). But if i'm basically agreeing with all the others and not with Hanyu the only conclusion was that the number for Hanyu is either a huge mistake or its been fabricated. Most of the skaters analysed were in the high teens range, and Hanyu said to be 10. Hanyu is actually at 17 on the performance reviewed (COR) so that's one serious difference, too big a difference to be a simple mistake.

As I have said, the Russian blogger said they did not count moves they considered as half-cross or cross-roll as a full crossover. I rewatched the program and I understand if they do not count some certain moves. The numbers do not vary that much per their explanation but of course, it's Google translate so it's still quite a challenge.

Per their comments, not every time crossing the legs is a clear crossover to them. They do, however, count those moves as "other steps" in their long article btw, if you look up their original article here btw: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/dobroefk/1488701.html

It is very long and complicated and googles translate only can help so much. Even my Russian friend on Twitter could not fully explain to me the charts and the statements in that post, she even said: "Sorry for my poor English". Again, they owe me nothing and I can not force them to spend time with me.

If you want to ask the Russian blogger why they do not count some moves as crossovers per your standard, and why they moved them under the category "other steps" then you can send them a message in Russian if you find any Russian friend who will help you. The Russian bloggers are friendly to feedback but they have to understand your opinion first.

 

[Meoima]

Have you done this? Have you gone through all the short programs of all those skaters and counted their crossovers using your own criteria as to what does or doesn't constitute a crossover?

Data analysis makes up a big part of what I do for a living and I agree with Meoima: It's fine to disagree with their analysis but not fine to accuse them of "fabricating results" just because you don't agree with those results. It's not at all unusual for two parties, both acting in good faith, to perform an analysis of the same thing and come up with different results--sometimes wildly different results.

I just look at Kolyada’s SP and if I count every time he crossed his legs it’s like 21. So IMO the Russian blogger didn’t count all of the half-cross they saw and don’t consider them all as crossovers. Per their view, it’s not like all the time they cross their legs in X position is counted as crossovers. I have seen the Italian fan on twitter stated the same. If they consider some move as half-cross step, or a cross roll they count them as “other steps”. If people want to disagree with their methods it’s ok, why don’t they find a way to ask for their statements. If not, it’s unfair to assume this or that without reading everything in a big context.

 

[MAXSwagg]

It's all subjective if you don't count every single cross movement as a cross over so I don't believe they have uniformly "applied the same method" on all skaters.

They're dressing up their opinions as facts. 10 is a wildly different number to 15, and there are 15 clear cross overs in that programme. I have eyes, I can see them!

I have no desire to engage with them I'm talking about it here where you linked to it.

I disagree with their numbers. You're not going to convince me Hanyu only does 10 cross overs in his SP, and I'm clearly not going to convince you either. It doesn't particularly matter, he's a beautiful skater, and that's all that does matter.

Huh? You’re confused!

 

[livetoskate]

Here's a documentary about Yuzuru, mainly of his current life in Canada. It includes footage of his past skating, Yuzuru visiting a shrine, taking college courses online, strategizing, practicing before a bunch of photographers, etc. He comes across as a very focus and intense. This is in Japanese with English subtitles and is well worth watching. It makes me really appreciate all the hard work Yuzuru and other top skaters put into this sport. If only American skaters could get a smidgen of this type of media attention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhKvqS5gOq4

 

[Meoima]

Here's a documentary about Yuzuru, mainly of his current life in Canada. It includes footage of his past skating, Yuzuru visiting a shrine, taking college courses online, strategizing, practicing before a bunch of photographers, etc. He comes across as a very focus and intense. This is in Japanese with English subtitles and is well worth watching. It makes me really appreciate all the hard work Yuzuru and other top skaters put into this sport. If only American skaters could get a smidgen of this type of media attention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhKvqS5gOq4

It’s a very beautiful documentary. Sadly they’re old footage though. Anyway Yuzuru is a big name in Japan so of course he gets so much media attention as well as pressure. I was kinda shocked at the amount of media surrounding him at CoR when I went to Moscow this season. You really need huge mental strength before all that.

 

[Meoima]

This person even wrote down all of Yuzuru steps in Chopin, I haven’t had time to check yet: https://youtu.be/jei6lDJ8bOU

I have asked 2 different people about Hanyu’s SP and they see nothing like 17 crossovers. One said they saw max 11 and the other said 10.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I counted exactly 11 in both Autumn Classic and Rostelecom, as well as 11 all the way back to 2014 Grand Prix Final. I think antmanb could just be confused. But I’m sure Buttle would get a good laugh.

 

[Meoima]

It seems Yuzuru is going to skip the team event: https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20180202-00000270-sph-spo

He will skate the individual event at the Olympics only.

 

[Rukia]

It seems Yuzuru is going to skip the team event: https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20180202-00000270-sph-spo

He will skate the individual event at the Olympics only.

Honestly I think that's smart. The only reason to skate in the team event would be to just be out there on Olympic ice, but I don't think he needs that. The only thing that worries me is if he's still not feeling up to snuff. The men's even it killer for me because I have so many people I want to skate well. I hope that Yuzuru can just go out there and skates light out (because I honestly believe he'll win if that happens).

 

[Meoima]

Honestly I think that's smart. The only reason to skate in the team event would be to just be out there on Olympic ice, but I don't think he needs that. The only thing that worries me is if he's still not feeling up to snuff. The men's even it killer for me because I have so many people I want to skate well. I hope that Yuzuru can just go out there and skates light out (because I honestly believe he'll win if that happens).

And honestly I doubt Japan team will make it to the free skate. Their team is exceptionally weak in ice dance and pair.

 

[Karen-W]

And honestly I doubt Japan team will make it to the free skate. Their team is exceptionally weak in ice dance and pair.

Actually, with the way the team event works, their dance team is no worse than S-K/K are for the US in pairs (the dance teams from China, Germany, South Korea & Israel are all going to finish behind M/R). And their ladies are stronger than any US lady. Their pairs team is the weak link but the other countries vying for the the 4th & 5th slots in the final are Italy, China, & France - and each of those countries has a discipline (or two) that they are just as weak as Japan is in pairs (Italy - men, China - ladies, France - ladies & men and possibly dance if P/C choose to skip the team event).

Having said that, Japan doesn't *need* Hanyu to compete in the team event to still make the final as long as Shoma competes in the short; and they could have an outside shot at the bronze medal if Shoma wants to skate both segments.

What concerns me is that Yuzuru isn't interested in getting out there for the short. Sure, he's been on Olympic ice before but the injury and the lack of information out of his camp about his recovery and now this makes me wonder just how well he is. We'll know, I suppose, in another week-10 days.

 

[Meoima]

Actually, with the way the team event works, their dance team is no worse than S-K/K are for the US in pairs (the dance teams from China, Germany, South Korea & Israel are all going to finish behind M/R). And their ladies are stronger than any US lady. Their pairs team is the weak link but the other countries vying for the the 4th & 5th slots in the final are Italy, China, & France - and each of those countries has a discipline (or two) that they are just as weak as Japan is in pairs (Italy - men, China - ladies, France - ladies & men and possibly dance if P/C choose to skip the team event).

Having said that, Japan doesn't *need* Hanyu to compete in the team event to still make the final as long as Shoma competes in the short; and they could have an outside shot at the bronze medal if Shoma wants to skate both segments.

What concerns me is that Yuzuru isn't interested in getting out there for the short. Sure, he's been on Olympic ice before but the injury and the lack of information out of his camp about his recovery and now this makes me wonder just how well he is. We'll know, I suppose, in another week-10 days.

I think either
1) Yuzuru still needs more time to adjust his training for the individual event. And given his current condition, they decide that not going to the team event is the best for him.
2) Yuzuru is well-adjusted enough but he doesn’t want more pressure on him from the team event throughout the individual event.
There is no issue with both anyway. He will be fine IMO.

 

[clairecloutier]

I sincerely hope Yuzuru will be fine, but the total secrecy around him right now, and the lack of any statement from him, plus not competing in the team event, definitely has me nervous.

 

[Meoima]

I sincerely hope Yuzuru will be fine, but the total secrecy around him right now, and the lack of any statement from him, plus not competing in the team event, definitely has me nervous.

I think Yuzuru will arrive at PC Olympics in good condition. If he’s not ok enough to do team event, I think there’s no way he’s ok enough to to individual event. It’s just 1 week gap anyway. I think it’s more like he thinks he doesn’t need to risk his condition for team event especially when team Japan has Zero chance of getting a team medal.

 

[Meoima]

Orser talked about Yuzuru in early February that Yuzuru will avoid the 4lz. Orser mentioned more info: "Although Yuzu just resumed practice in early January, all kinds of jumps are getting good except 4luz. I'm surprised he's training so well. Of course, he is aiming for gold."
From https://twitter.com/echotpe/status/...share|twsrc^m5|twgr^email|twcon^7046|twterm^3

 

[umronnie]

Orser talked about Yuzuru in early February that Yuzuru will avoid the 4lz. Orser mentioned more info: "Although Yuzu just resumed practice in early January, all kinds of jumps are getting good except 4luz. I'm surprised he's training so well. Of course, he is aiming for gold."
From https://twitter.com/echotpe/status/960515283256406016?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^m5|twgr^email|twcon^7046|twterm^3

Forget the freaking 4Lz, already! It's like Savchenko and her 3A obsession. He can set a world record with just 4 quads. He can certainly win w/o the 4Lz.

 

[BittyBug]

Exactly. A clean Hanyu with 4 quads (4T repeated, 4S and 4R) can definitely compete for the top spot.