I, Tonya

[berthesghost]

That doesn't surprise me. I graduated from college in 1995 and did my senior research paper (communication major) on a comparison of the bias in media coverage of Tonya's guilty plea. The Oregonian's coverage was the most anti-Tonya (compared to the AP and USA Today's coverage).

interesting. Was there much variation to how writers saw it? After seeing the movie and the controversial courtroom scene, I googled it and all of the articles from 94 that I read seemed to 1. Stress that she purposefully took the plea specifically to avoid jail time and 2. Stressed that she wasn't at the hearing months later about the ban strongly implying that she could have defended herself but didn't even bother, all of which is contrary to the later "I'd rather have gone to jail than been banned" claim. But I only read the top few results for each search, not done an exhaustive research.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Back in the day, when I asked for a Jill Trenary hair cut...

...and this is what they gave me.

 

[Karen-W]

interesting. Was there much variation to how writers saw it? After seeing the movie and the controversial courtroom scene, I googled it and all of the articles from 94 that I read seemed to 1. Stress that she purposefully took the plea specifically to avoid jail time and 2. Stressed that she wasn't at the hearing months later about the ban strongly implying that she could have defended herself but didn't even bother, all of which is contrary to the later "I'd rather have gone to jail than been banned" claim. But I only read the top few results for each search, not done an exhaustive research.

Oh, goodness, it's been at least a dozen years, I think, since I last looked at my paper. I'm not even sure where it is (might be in a trunk of my old stuff at my parents house but I honestly don't know), lol. I do recall that the paper was narrowly focused on the time frame in March 1994 when she made the plea deal and I don't think I really reviewed anything related to the USFSA hearing when they banned her. I do know there was a very clear difference in the reporting, with The Oregonian biased against Tonya and the national coverage taking a much more neutral tone in their reporting. Now I'm wanting to see if I can track my paper down to refresh my memory.

One thing that occurred to me this morning, and probably contributes to my ongoing belief that the lifetime ban was utter BS, is exactly what additional evidence did the FBI and Multnomah County DA have that wasn't made public in 1994 but was shared privately with the USFSA? I am cynical enough to believe that is a lie. Why? Because, as has sadly been proven by politicians on both sides of the political aisle in recent years, there is little integrity at the FBI and from our non-elected bureaucrats nowadays. If additional evidence against Tonya really did exist, I suspect it would have been leaked in the ensuing 24 years and not much beyond what was known in March 1994 has ever come out. With this movie and the buzz it has received in the last few months surely some unscrupulous bureaucrats have dug through the old case files to see what was withheld from the public. Nothing has been leaked. Instead, we have been treated to a regurgitation of "there was enough in the files, trust us, we saw the evidence, even the stuff not made public," from the usual folks. Why should we trust their word?

 

[Lynn226]

That is typical of many of the Soviet women. I heard the same thing about Kondrashova and Ivanova for years. Voderezova to some extent too.

I once went to an ice show where the spectators were allowed in early due to dangerous weather outside. I don't remember the year or show, but one of the things I got to see was Dmitriev coaching Butryskaya on her triple axle. I'm far from an expert, but I remember it was slightly under rotated and she was landing some, not falling.

 

[cmk]

I once went to an ice show where the spectators were allowed in early due to dangerous weather outside. I don't remember the year or show, but one of the things I got to see was Dmitriev coaching Butryskaya on her triple axle. I'm far from an expert, but I remember it was slightly under rotated and she was landing some, not falling.

I think Maria B also landed some 3axels in practice at 99 worlds (that she won). I actually prefer Irina's style of skating, but Maria did deserve to win that year. There was one year where both Irina and Sokolova failed to make the world team and got sent to world university games (I think us send Kwiatkowski to that event) that year.

 

[vesperholly]

Butyrskaya 3axels in practice 1996: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqgbtAGaDfA

The third one is clean but she couldn't hold the landing.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Yeah yeah, the people who want medals all knew that Tonya could medal at 89 worlds and Kristi couldn’t, but their hatred of the poor girl with the ugly costumes was so intense they purposefully sent the overworked pairs champion there, plus they saved a few bucks on one less person in the hotel. Give me a frickin break.

Not for an argument, but just for minor fun fact. Last night i showed 1989 US Nat. FS videos (Trenary, Harding, Yamaguchi) to my friends who love FS but only watch major events on TV, and not into finer details of "tekink" or "history". They ranked these girls as following (watching on small computer screen).

1st place - Yamaguchi by far (elegant, graceful, moves well, nice positions).
2nd place - Trenary (not much excitement about her compared to Yamaguchi, but better in every respect than Harding).
3rd place - Harding (strong, solid, but stiff, not fluid, not very graceful, did not care to watch her skate to the end, but asked to re-watch Yamaguchi...).

... not that it means anything, but these people knew nothing about who Harding or other girls were, or their back ground.

 

[vesperholly]

Not for an argument, but just for minor fun fact. Last night i showed 1989 US Nat. FS videos (Trenary, Harding, Yamaguchi) to my friends who love FS but only watch major events on TV, and not into finer details of "tekink" or "history". They ranked these girls as following (watching on small computer screen).

1st place - Yamaguchi by far (elegant, graceful, moves well, nice positions).
2nd place - Trenary (not much excitement about her compared to Yamaguchi, but better in every respect than Harding).
3rd place - Harding (strong, solid, but stiff, not fluid, not very graceful, did not care to watch her skate to the end, but asked to re-watch Yamaguchi...).

... not that it means anything, but these people knew nothing about who Harding or other girls were, or their back ground.

If not for figures, where Yamaguchi placed 8th, it would have turned out this way. Trenary won the SP, Yamaguchi won the FS, and Harding was 3rd in both.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Not for an argument, but just for minor fun fact. Last night i showed 1989 US Nat. FS videos (Trenary, Harding, Yamaguchi) to my friends who love FS but only watch major events on TV, and not into finer details of "tekink" or "history". They ranked these girls as following (watching on small computer screen).

1st place - Yamaguchi by far (elegant, graceful, moves well, nice positions).
2nd place - Trenary (not much excitement about her compared to Yamaguchi, but better in every respect than Harding).
3rd place - Harding (strong, solid, but stiff, not fluid, not very graceful, did not care to watch her skate to the end, but asked to re-watch Yamaguchi...).

... not that it means anything, but these people knew nothing about who Harding or other girls were, or their back ground.

ROTFL at calling 89 Yamaguchi elegant or graceful or having nice positions.

 

[cmk]

ROTFL at calling 89 Yamaguchi elegant or graceful or having nice positions.

Trenary was the weakest jumper of the 3. I would of placed both Kristi and Tonya over her in the short and the free.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Trenary was the weakest jumper of the 3. I would of placed both Kristi and Tonya over her in the short and the free.

I would have placed Kristi 3rd in both. She skated like a little girl, weak artistry, and weak jumps. Trenary atleast had artistry even if her skating at the event was overall lackluster so would have placed her 2nd in both. Even going by your placings of Kristi 2nd in both though over Jill, which I could reasonably see as she did harder jumps, with her 8th in figures she would have been behind Jill in 3rd place and off the team with Jill 2nd overall despite her 3rd place finishes in both. Which makes sense as unlike both Tonya and Jill, Kristi didnt have a prayer of contending for a medal in Paris that year while Tonya and Jill were both major contenders for a medal, possibly gold (although as it is with how Ito fared nobody else was winning that year IMO).

 

[bardtoob]

Not for an argument, but just for minor fun fact. Last night i showed 1989 US Nat. FS videos (Trenary, Harding, Yamaguchi) to my friends who love FS but only watch major events on TV, and not into finer details of "tekink" or "history". They ranked these girls as following (watching on small computer screen).

1st place - Yamaguchi by far (elegant, graceful, moves well, nice positions).
2nd place - Trenary (not much excitement about her compared to Yamaguchi, but better in every respect than Harding).
3rd place - Harding (strong, solid, but stiff, not fluid, not very graceful, did not care to watch her skate to the end, but asked to re-watch Yamaguchi...).

... not that it means anything, but these people knew nothing about who Harding or other girls were, or their back ground.

This makes sense when considering the mindset of a none fan, who:

- does not know the difference between triples
- does not know the difference in difficulty between triples
- does not notice what the skating blades are doing
- does not notice the center of spins

Casual fans look for musicality and body position, but also notices speed, all of which elicits an emotional response.

 

[bardtoob]

So the actual placement at 1989 Nationals were:

Rank Name CF SP FS
1 Jill Trenary
CF: 1 SP: 1 FS: 2
2 Kristi Yamaguchi
CF: 8 SP: 2 FS: 1
3 Tonya Harding
CF: 4 SP: 3 FS: 3

I think it would have been fairer if the placements were:

Rank Name CF SP FS
? Jill Trenary
CF: 1 SP: 1 FS: 3
? Kristi Yamaguchi
CF: 8 SP: 2 FS: 1
? Tonya Harding
CF: 4 SP: 3 FS: 2

Would this have changed the overall results?

I believe that Trenary would have still won, but I don't know about Harding Vs Yamaguchi?

As a fan, I can say that Harding's deep edges and flow with her blades cutting into the ice, spin centering and speed, steps and turns were superior to Yamaguchi but just below Jill's.

Harding's jump content was definitely better than Jill's and on par with Yamaguchi's because Tonya had two 3Lp and better grade of execution than Yamaguchi.

In terms of presentation, Harding was not nearly as pretty as Kristi or Jill.

 

[Tinami Amori]

ROTFL at calling 89 Yamaguchi elegant or graceful or having nice positions.

.. i just asked my friend (still visiting) why he called Yamaguchi "elegant little Thumbolina", and he said "she is light, vivacious, slender and fluid, did a nice snappy job on Can-Can sequence without being vulgar or obvious, and skated with youthful joy and lack of inhibitions, while the other two girls looked like they were "working/on a mission". like i said, this is "no tekink" impression..

Casual fans look for musicality and body position, but also notices speed, all of which elicits an emotional response.

that's about right...

 

[Vagabond]

So the actual placement at 1989 Nationals were:

Rank Name CF SP FS
1 Jill Trenary
CF: 1 SP: 1 FS: 2
2 Kristi Yamaguchi
CF: 8 SP: 2 FS: 1
3 Tonya Harding
CF: 4 SP: 3 FS: 3

I think it would have been fairer if the placements were:

Rank Name CF SP FS
? Jill Trenary
CF: 1 SP: 1 FS: 3
? Kristi Yamaguchi
CF: 8 SP: 2 FS: 1
? Tonya Harding
CF: 4 SP: 3 FS: 2

Would this have changed the overall results?

I believe that figure skaters were scored the same way in 1989 as at the 1988 Olympics, namely:

Skaters were ranked on Ordinal Placement, based on judges' points, with final placement for each section determined by Majority Placements. The tiebreaker for the Short Program was the Required Elements score, while the tiebreaker for the Free Skating was the Artistic Impression score. Thus, if a skater was ranked first by a majority of the judges, that skater was placed first overall for that section. Ties were broken by a Subsequent Majority rule, i.e., if the skaters were ranked for the same position by the same number of judges, Majority Placement for the next higher position for each skater determined who was ranked higher. Final placement was determined by factored placements. The tiebreakers were then 1) Number of Majority Placements, 2) Total Ordinals of Majority, 3) Total Ordinals. The placement for the Compulsory Figures was factored by 0.6 (30%), the placement for the short program was factored by 0.4 (20%), and the placement for Free Skating was factored by 1.0 (50%). The sums of the factored placements were then used to determine final placement, with the Free Skating being the tiebreaker.

https://www.sports-reference.com/ol...ulsory-figures-and-short-program-summary.html

If I understand this correctly, then under your scenario, it would be:

Trenary: 0.6 + 0.4 + 3.0 = 4.0
Harding: 2.4 + 1.2 + 2.0 = 5.6
Yamaguchi: 4.8 + 0.8 + 1.0 = 6.6.

In other words, yes.

 

[vesperholly]

Harding's jump content was definitely better than Jill's and on par with Yamaguchi's because Tonya had two 3Lp and better grade of execution than Yamaguchi.

Harding's jumps were not on par with Yamaguchi's. Yamaguchi did two clean 3lutz, one with a 2toe, and a clean 3flip. Harding two-footed her one 3lutz and only had a 2flip. In general, yes, Harding had much more powerful jumps with great speed and height, but she did not attempt nor land nearly the same technical content that Yamaguchi did.

In terms of presentation, Harding was not nearly as pretty as Kristi or Jill.

I thought Tonya looked stiff, lacked extension and general "ease" of skating. I say this as a fan of her skating.

 

[MacMadame]

exactly what additional evidence did the FBI and Multnomah County DA have that wasn't made public in 1994 but was shared privately with the USFSA? I am cynical enough to believe that is a lie. Why? Because, as has sadly been proven by politicians on both sides of the political aisle in recent years, there is little integrity at the FBI and from our non-elected bureaucrats nowadays. If additional evidence against Tonya really did exist,

They showed the same evidence to Kerrigan. Are you saying Kerrigan is lying too?

 

[Karen-W]

They showed the same evidence to Kerrigan. Are you saying Kerrigan is lying too?

I think that if there was really anything else beyond what has been made public then it would have come to light by now. I don't think Kerrigan is lying but I do think that her perception of the information the FBI & Multnomah County DA withheld from the public is skewed by a very human need to process a very horrific, violent act perpetrated against her. I think she was given a narrative of the "evidence" and, certainly at the time, wasn't willing or able to critically analyze that information on her own without a bunch of other people offering up their own interpretations and opinions. It was far easier to just accept what she was told the evidence said/indicated and over the years, every four years to be exact, the persistent questions and re-hashing of "the whack" has only solidified what she was told to believe, to the point where that narrative is HER truth. Just like the narrative presented in "I, Tonya" is, to an extent, Tonya's truth. Truth, or at least our perception of it, is relative to our own personal experiences, the information we are given, and how that information is presented.

 

[bardtoob]

Harding's jumps were not on par with Yamaguchi's. Yamaguchi did two clean 3lutz, one with a 2toe, and a clean 3flip. Harding two-footed her one 3lutz and only had a 2flip. In general, yes, Harding had much more powerful jumps with great speed and height, but she did not attempt nor land nearly the same technical content that Yamaguchi did.

I was utterly unimpressed with the quality of Yamaguchi's jumps, albeit the list of jumps is impressive. The entry edges, exit edges, and height were lacking.

That being said, I did already say I would have given Yamaguchi 1st in the freeskate.

 

[Erin]

Harding's jumps were not on par with Yamaguchi's. Yamaguchi did two clean 3lutz, one with a 2toe, and a clean 3flip. Harding two-footed her one 3lutz and only had a 2flip. In general, yes, Harding had much more powerful jumps with great speed and height, but she did not attempt nor land nearly the same technical content that Yamaguchi did.

That's a good, succinct way of summing up the difference between the two.

To reframe, if this were being judged today, Krisi would have a massive base mark advantage that would outweigh any GOE advantages Tonya would get on the easier jumps Tonya did land.

I thought Tonya looked stiff, lacked extension and general "ease" of skating. I say this as a fan of her skating.

Agreed. I think that this is one of my least favorite Tonya programs from when she was with Diane. And those qualities you mention are why I was fine with her being behind Jill in the free. Jill skated reasonably well at Nationals, landing a triple flip, two triple sals (one out of a one foot axel), a slightly wobbly triple toe), and two double axels and had a big presentation advantage over Tonya even if it wasn't my favorite program of hers. In retrospect, I'm a little shocked they didn't hold her up to win the free skate over Kristi, but I suppose Kristi had an excitement factor of a perfect program and seven triples.

 

[bardtoob]

Agreed. I think that this is one of my least favorite Tonya programs from when she was with Diane.

While the stiffness should have definitely been reflected in the marks because that is how the program was executed, I think Tonya was really feeling the pressure and was trying very hard to stay mentally focused. I say this because this is what Diane and Tonya appear to be talking about between the time she gets off the ice and when she is interviewed.

 

[vesperholly]

I think Tonya was really feeling the pressure and was trying very hard to stay mentally focused.

You could say that about every single skater out there ...

I do think Tonya isn't always given enough credit for the improvements she made in her presentation. Particularly, her 1993 SP at Skate America to Much Ado About Nothing (pink long-sleeved dress) was excellent with good lines, strong extension and very smooth skating.

 

[bardtoob]

You could say that about every single skater out there ...

Oh, goodness, then why can't I say it about Tonya, dear ...

... That is the story of Tonya. She is proud of herself, and people reply, "Well, everybody does that."

... It is no excuse for the wack, but people could have been proud and happy for Tonya for what she accomplished before the wack. Placing 4, 3, and 3 at US Nationals was quite an accomplishment for her.

 

[berthesghost]

I agree that those who know the full allegations (fbi, Harding) and those who may or may not know (usfs, Kerrigan) all have little to no motivation to blab.

iDK if any of those journalists that love to write about “the incident” have ever requested it.

I’m ignorant on how any of this works. From scanning the website it seems that maybe the FoI Act says either harding has to agree they can see it, or they have to wait till she’s dead. Would usfs and Kerrigan have signed non-disclosure forms when updated by fbi on intel? Do plea bargains usually come with similar non disclosure agreements? It seems logical that if someone takes a plea bargain, all the details of the more serious crime allegations should not be public.

 

[LarrySK8]

I remember Ucle Dick saying specifically on air that Tonya achieved suspension in the air when doing a death drop that is rare to see,

He said similar about Tiffany Chin's Death Drop at 1987 Nationals - he loves that move.

Of all the ALTERNATE FACTS in the film, this one might have bothered me the most.

Movies "based on actual events," often delete characters that would confuse the general audience. By deleting reference to Midori, the film makers avoided having to explain, "First AMERICAN woman to land a triple axel," from "First woman to EVER land a triple axel," AND AND AND having to explain that Midori's was far better than Tonya's.

 

[LarrySK8]

But it's still not an easier version than the basic spiral. I don't mind if someone doesn't like it. But cut the BS that it's easier because you don't like the fact that Nancy has Olympic medals and Tonya threw her best shots away.

When I was a skater around the time of Nancy's heyday, a lot of us were trying her spiral variation, and personally I remember finding it easier to keep balance when holding my knee than doing a 'regular' spiral (which required more leaning forward to counter-balance).

I can join in, as I skated singles and pairs and have done, IDK, a bazillion spirals with and without a partner and have learned R/L FO; R/L FI; R/L BI and R/L BO (my favorites); as well as spirals with the foot in front of you as opposed to behind you. I have learned catch foot spirals; spirals where as a pair we were intertwined - all kinds.

The "grab the knee" spiral IS different because it forces the skater to create an imaginary plane in which the free arm-body twisted with the free shoulder forward-holding shoulder and arm and free leg are all in one line. This makes it VERY HARD to do the spiral on any kind of deep edge - as opposed to a slight edge or flat. What is hard about the "grab knee spiral" is doing it on a deep edge and leaning on that edge while your body has been twisted into one straight line following the edge you are on - you can fall over easily on a deep edge. Hard to explain clearly, but you get the point.

It is easy to hold your leg at the knee and skate forward - that is NOT a spiral

 

[Yazmeen]

Thank you for that explanation, LarrySK8. I think a lot of people tend to forget that spirals are meant to be done on a edge, not just forward skating on a flat while holding your leg up (with your hand or not).

Regarding the law enforcement officials involved in the Kerrigan attack case, I think this interview/review with Norm Frink sheds some light on the subject. And it DESTROYS the concept that Tonya would have preferred jail over what she got at that time as portrayed in the movie:

"She wanted two things," Frink says, "She did not want to admit prior knowledge and she did not want to spend time in prison. We were willing to agree to that."

https://patch.com/oregon/portland/i-tonya-hardings-prosecutor-talks-case

 

[Karen-W]

Thank you for that explanation, LarrySK8. I think a lot of people tend to forget that spirals are meant to be done on a edge, not just forward skating on a flat while holding your leg up (with your hand or not).

Regarding the law enforcement officials involved in the Kerrigan attack case, I think this interview/review with Norm Frink sheds some light on the subject. And it DESTROYS the concept that Tonya would have preferred jail over what she got at that time as portrayed in the movie:

"She wanted two things," Frink says, "She did not want to admit prior knowledge and she did not want to spend time in prison. We were willing to agree to that."

https://patch.com/oregon/portland/i-tonya-hardings-prosecutor-talks-case

Yes, and Frink says that the evidence they had is exactly what had always been public knowledge... the note from the tavern dumpster and Gillooly turning on her for a lighter sentence. I get where he is going with his comments... Basically, his gut said she was lying, other people said she was lying but she might very well have been able to avoided any punishment had it gone to trial, she was that good of a liar.

 

[Yazmeen]

Yes, and Frink says that the evidence they had is exactly what had always been in the public venue... the note from the tavern dumpster and Gillooly turning on her for a lighter sebtebce

I never said anything was purposefully or otherwise withheld. But they had evidence to take her to trial and she accepted a plea bargain instead. I wanted to point out that she SPECIFICALLY agreed to something where she wouldn't have to admit to prior knowledge of the attack. Which to me, reinforces the belief that she was involved prior to the whack.

 

[Karen-W]

I never said anything was purposefully or otherwise withheld. But they had evidence to take her to trial and she accepted a plea bargain instead. I wanted to point out that she SPECIFICALLY agreed to something where she wouldn't have to admit to prior knowledge of the attack. Which to me, reinforces the belief that she was involved prior to the whack.

But that was your emphasis from the quote. Maybe she was adamant against admitting prior knowledge because she didn't know anything specific. Frink also says, in that article, that Tonya was very smart and wily in her interviews and interactions with everyone. It stands to reason that she was smart enough to have not known any specifics of any plans that were made in the Eckhardt house. All they had was a piece of paper with the training rink info in her handwriting. Any good defense lawyer could easily spin that as she got the info because Jeff asked her to get that info and either lied to her about why he wanted it or she just didn't ask. Either way you slice it, from a legal point of view, there is (or was until that ABC interview earlier this month) a grey area that exists as to how much she knew and when she knew it.