I, Tonya

[vesperholly]

You the man @gkelly! Nice work!

There are some things I like about IJS but there is so much I miss about 6.0 scoring. The marks, the ordinals, the factored placements. Sigh. It was all so blissful.

Oh and regarding Butyrskaya (always one of my faves ), a couple of years ago I was pleasantly surprised to find out she had actually been the 1992 Skate Canada champion showing command in her jump landings that she definitely wasn't known for! I had heard of her long and rocky history with the Russian federation but I just assumed she only started having results in the 95-96 season.

https://youtu.be/wl9yRZOapKc

Little surprises like this always bring me such joy! Not too long ago I found out Diva Tanya Navka competed as a 16-year-old at 1991 Skate America with Samuel Gezelian. As a Soviet! And she won! Then over the next 15 years she represented what seems like 15 other nations, had a baby, and came from "nowhere" to win a couple World titles and the Olympics in 2006 with Roman Kostomorov. Her competition history as a zygote (where she was competing alongside legends such as Klimova/Ponomarenko and Usova/Zhulin) had been completely unknown to me!

https://youtu.be/NUu1QS3nvog

Butyrskaya must have sold that program to Julia Lautowa (burned the costume before, though) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3vumI4wo1A

Baby Navka totally looks like Usova in that video!

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Anyone know why the US only sent two ladies to 1989 Worlds? Debi Thomas medaled in 1988, so there should have been three.

I think the rule was that Debi had secured a spot for herself + two additional spots? And since she retired from eligible skating, her spot became a non-issue slash void. I could be remembering this wrong or not 100% correctly.

 

[Yazmeen]

I think the rule was that Debi had secured a spot for herself + two additional spots? And since she retired from eligible skating, her spot became a non-issue slash void. I could be remembering this wrong or not 100% correctly.

Yes, I believe that was the "named skater" spot which was forfeited when she retired (Louis explained this in the Nationals Men's Freekskate thread).

Also new article on "I, Tonya" from a sportswriter from the Oregonian who covered the 1994. Warning to the Tonya sympathizers in advance: you won't like this:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2018/01/i_nauseated_the_oregonians_for.html

 

[Yazmeen]

Sandra Luckow (who did the Tonya film "Sharp Edges") and her views on LaVona:

http://people.com/movies/tonya-harding-mother-monster-friend/

 

[berthesghost]

I want to say the rule was something weird like: 3 could go, but one had to be the medalist.

Oops: Johnny comelately!

 

[Inessence]

Also new article on "I, Tonya" from a sportswriter from the Oregonian who covered the 1994. Warning to the Tonya sympathizers in advance: you won't like this:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2018/01/i_nauseated_the_oregonians_for.html

Vader and Harding always had a contentious relationship. Who do you think outed Tonya as a “smoking asthmatic” right around 93 Nats? She apparently ran into her at a bowling alley puffing away. Too bad Tonya wasn’t a Portland Trailblazer or playing for a University. Those big dollar organizations know how to get the papers to keep that sort of thing quiet.

 

[bardtoob]

Anyone know why the US only sent two ladies to 1989 Worlds? Debi Thomas medaled in 1988, so there should have been three.

There was a rule/traditional that a member federation got two berths plus berths were allocated individually for the previous year's medalists.

In other words, that third berth was for Debbie Thomas and no one else.

 

[bardtoob]

She clearly should have made the 89 World team instead of Yamaguchi. It isnt even a question and was a joke and completely political decision. She in fact probably should have won Nationals considering she should have won both the short and long programs and Trenary should have been only 3rd in both, and she was 4th in figures.

Yamaguchi was regularly outscoring Tonya when they landed the same jumps even before she developed artistry which with tiny baby jumps, weaker spins, and weaker technical ability and far less speed and power made no sense at all. Even worse when Tonya was much better than Kristi in figures, and it clearly made more sense to promote someone atleast competent in figures while they were going on.

Prior to 89, Tonya was already doing jumps that none of Thomas, Kadavy, or Trenary were capable of and should have been more in contention atleast than she was.

Look at the 93 Nationals short programs which are on youtube. No way did Kerrigan beat her 8 judges to 1 for those skates. And anyone else who was a huge name in U.S skating but Tonia would have been given the benefit of doubt and put on the team over a journeywomen like Kwiatkowski who skated no better than she.

The list is endless but it doesnt take an Einstein to see while Tonya often self sabotoged the federation was definitely against her too. Many higher ups have even confirmed that after the fact.

Before you wuzrob 1989 Nationals, it might behoove you to rewatch the performances. Not sure why you think Tonya should have won both the SP and the FS. In the SP, Tonya two-footed her 3lutz combo while Yamaguchi's was clean. In the FS, Yamaguchi did two clean 3lutzes and a 3flip, 3loop, two 3toes to Tonya's one two-footed 3lutz, two 3loops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gObdzCNfA

Anyone know why the US only sent two ladies to 1989 Worlds? Debi Thomas medaled in 1988, so there should have been three.

In my mind, 1989 Nationals politics was about having Trenary on the World Team and Tonya off; Kristi was a pawn.

Tonya was strong enough to wedge herself between Trenary and Midori in figures.

Tonya was strong enough to wedge herself between Midori and Trenary in the SP, if not win that segment.

Tonya was strong enough to wedge herself between Midori and Trenary in the LP, if not win that segment.

This all translates to Fassi no longer having the top ranked skater from the US and/or 1/2 to 2/3 of the US World and Olympic Team.

 

[berthesghost]

Yeah yeah, the people who want medals all knew that Tonya could medal at 89 worlds and Kristi couldn’t, but their hatred of the poor girl with the ugly costumes was so intense they purposefully sent the overworked pairs champion there, plus they saved a few bucks on one less person in the hotel. Give me a frickin break.

 

[bardtoob]

Yeah yeah, the people who want medals all knew that Tonya could medal at 89 worlds and Kristi couldn’t, but their hatred of the poor girl with the ugly costumes was so intense they purposefully sent the overworked pairs champion there, plus they saved a few bucks on one less person in the hotel. Give me a frickin break.

I don't even think it was about hating the lower classes.

It was about the attitude of European Coaches, who want to be "Champion Makers", rather than about the individual skaters being allowed to succeed.

 

[berthesghost]

So now all usfs judges were in the pocket of Carlo f and the future world and oly champ was just a chump propped up to help the former nat champ and future world champ win?

Anywho, that season, Kristi medaled at SA and NHK right behind Midori both times. Tonya didn’t compete against Midori all season long and was two years away from landing the 3x. Speculation that she would have done better than Kristi at 89 worlds is just that, speculation based on not much empirical data.

 

[joubertelegant]

In my mind, 1989 Nationals politics was about having Trenary on the World Team and Tonya off; Kristi was a pawn.

Tonya was strong enough to wedge herself between Trenary and Midori in figures.

Tonya was strong enough to wedge herself between Midori and Trenary in the SP, if not win that segment.

Tonya was strong enough to wedge herself between Midori and Trenary in the LP, if not win that segment.

This all translates to Fassi no longer having the top ranked skater from the US and/or 1/2 to 2/3 of the US World and Olympic Team.

Pretty much all this. Unless Tonya did a triple axel-triple toe loop in every program and Kristi/Jill both fell apart she was never making the world team that year. Despite that Tonya was a way better skater and way bigger threat for a medal than Kristi who didnt have a prayer that particular year. Just one of many years Tonya was sabatoged by a corrupt USFSA.

 

[SmallFairy]

No that was Batman/Send in the clowns/Tone Loc.


!

Gotta love 1990!

 

[joubertelegant]

I love that Tonya's music selections still carried on the theme of the cheesiness of 80s music and movie soundtracks into the early 90s. What a legend!

 

[bardtoob]

So now all usfs judges were in the pocket of Carlo f and the future world and oly champ was just a chump propped up to help the former nat champ and future world champ win?

Anywho, that season, Kristi medaled at SA and NHK right behind Midori both times. Tonya didn’t compete against Midori all season long and was two years away from landing the 3x. Speculation that she would have done better than Kristi at 89 worlds is just that, speculation based on not much empirical data.

Why wouldn't the American Judges be in Carlo's pocket, given he made Peggy, Dorothy ... etc. Furthermore, Carlo certainly had the European Judges, so American Judges are not much of a stretch and probably easier.

My speculation that Tonya would have done better at 1989 Worlds is based on Tonya placing 4th at US Nationals in figures while Kristi placed 8th ... And there is absolutely no motivation to hold up Tonya in figures and hold Kristi down in figures.

Moreover, placing 2nd at 1988 NHK is not much of a feat when Marina Kielmann of West Germany was 3rd (and did not qualify for 1989 Worlds) and Yvonne Gomez of Spain was 4th (and was 18th at 1989 Worlds)

Furthermore, Kristi was 3rd at 1988 SA behind Claudia Leistner in 1st and Midori in 2nd. Of course, Kristi was followed by Holly Cook in 4th, Jeri Campbell in 5th, who were 2nd and 3rd in figures at 1989 US Nationals ... Holly probably would have beaten Krist at 1988 SA like at 1990 Worlds if there had been one more skater to place ahead of Kristi in figures . . .

. . . and who would have been those possible skaters? Well, the placements at 1989 Worlds were:

1 Midori Ito
CF: 6 SP: 1 LP: 1

2 Claudia Leistner
CF: 1 SP: 3 LP: 2

3 Jill Trenary
CF: 2 SP: 2 LP: 3

4 Patricia Neske
CF: 5 SP: 6 LP: 6

5 Natalia Lebedeva
CF: 3 SP: 4 LP: 8

6 Kristi Yamaguchi
CF:12 SP: 5 LP: 4

. . . let this sink in, Holly Cook beat Kristi Yamaguchi at 1990 Worlds because Holly Cook placed 4th in figures while Kristi placed 9th in figures despite Yamaguchi beating Cook in the SP and LP.

Kristi was not a future World and Olympic Champion in singles until figures were eliminate, and the elimination of figures also happened to be the end of Carlo as the coach of World Champions and Trenary as a contender at Worlds.

So what was that again

So now all usfs judges were in the pocket of Carlo f and the future world and oly champ was just a chump propped up to help the former nat champ and future world champ win?

Anywho, that season, Kristi medaled at SA and NHK right behind Midori both times. Tonya didn’t compete against Midori all season long and was two years away from landing the 3x. Speculation that she would have done better than Kristi at 89 worlds is just that, speculation based on not much empirical data.

 

[Inessence]

I’ve always wondered how much of Yamaguchi’s decision to go solo was entirely of her own volition or heavily inspired by the USFSA.

 

[meggonzo]

I’ve always wondered how much of Yamaguchi’s decision to go solo was entirely of her own volition or heavily inspired by the USFSA.

I don't know if it was USFSA or some of the international judges, but it was suggested to her at 1990 Worlds that she needed to choose between the two, and they thought she should do singles. Plus with Christy Ness moving to Edmonton, she had to make a decision on what to do.

 

[Tinami Amori]

yeah, one reason why I’m glad I watched the movie is that it does give a glimpse into the lives and loves of the basket full of Deplorables

.... not just a Basket ... but a Blue Basket full of Deplorables plus a perfect demonstration of "social engineering" and "redistribution" by Jeff and Tonya..

But the 2nd part does help explain one reason why this “just a movie” irked. It’s one thing to retell history from a different perspective, but Hepburn’s portrayal of Mary of Scotland as kind and misunderstood and a victim of her evil husband and lover wasn’t rubbed in liz’s face with press calling Liz I up at the palace asking what she thought of her assasination plotter’s new found public sympathy as the real victim.

Liz I at that point had no ill will, she just removed Mary's head.

 

[PDilemma]

Vader and Harding always had a contentious relationship. Who do you think outed Tonya as a “smoking asthmatic” right around 93 Nats? She apparently ran into her at a bowling alley puffing away. Too bad Tonya wasn’t a Portland Trailblazer or playing for a University. Those big dollar organizations know how to get the papers to keep that sort of thing quiet.

Absolutely! After all, it is a proven medical fact that when an asthmatic athlete smokes, it is actually only harmful to them or their fitness IF the public is aware. If it is kept secret, it actually enhances their abilities.

Or something like that.

 

[bardtoob]

Absolutely! After all, it is a proven medical fact that when an asthmatic athlete smokes, it is actually only harmful to them or their fitness IF the public is aware. If it is kept secret, it actually enhances their abilities.

Or something like that.

Well, it certainly can help somebody with little education about anything, let alone nutrition, keep from getting fat by suppressing one's appetite.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I’ve always wondered how much of Yamaguchi’s decision to go solo was entirely of her own volition or heavily inspired by the USFSA.

I have heard it was heavily USFSA based. Basically though there were just too many obstacles at that point from Kristi to remain doing pairs. Doing both were too taxing and her performances in the 1990 worlds and even 1990 Nationals in both were making that clear, the USFSA were heavily pressuring her to focus on singles, their pairs coach had died, her singles coach lived fair away, and she didnt look as competitive in pairs as she did in singles by that point. Add to that figures being removed, and it was clear singles was her better bet. At the 1990 worlds she basically skated like crap for her standards, atleast the long program, and still came 2nd in the combined free skating. In pairs she was 5th and would have been only 5th even if she and Rudy had skated cleanly, and they werent really close to the Russian pairs or Brasseur & Eisler at that point, and it wasnt known Gordeeva & Grinkov and Selezneva & Makarov (particularly G&G) would soon go pro, and there were strong pairs and up and coming pairs close behind.

All around it would have taken a lot for her to continue pairs, either through choosing pairs over singles, or continuing to try and do both.

 

[Inessence]

Did the USFSA really care that much about Kristi’s welfare though? What about Poor Rudy?

Or was it because figures were going away soon meaning so would Trenary. Who else did that leave at the top of the food chain?

 

[ohashibiles]

Trenary did plan on going for 92. I think without her ankle injury in 91 she atleast tries for 92, but I am still not sure if she makes the team.

 

[Erin]

I don't know if it was USFSA or some of the international judges, but it was suggested to her at 1990 Worlds that she needed to choose between the two, and they thought she should do singles. Plus with Christy Ness moving to Edmonton, she had to make a decision on what to do.

I think Ness had already moved to Edmonton the year before because I'm pretty sure Rudy (or Rudi as he went by then) went up to Edmonton with Kristi, which was a pretty big sacrifice on his part, making it even more devastating for him when she dumped him for singles. Of course, it was still the right decision for her, but from his point of view, I can see how it would have felt. (I will caveat that it's been a super long time since I read Rudy's autobiography and I don't own it to be able to check so I am not 100% sure on this one)

 

[cmk]

Tonya skated to ZZ top in the 90's as an Olympic elgible skater, and at 99 espn pros.

 

[cmk]

Before you wuzrob 1989 Nationals, it might behoove you to rewatch the performances. Not sure why you think Tonya should have won both the SP and the FS. In the SP, Tonya two-footed her 3lutz combo while Yamaguchi's was clean. In the FS, Yamaguchi did two clean 3lutzes and a 3flip, 3loop, two 3toes to Tonya's one two-footed 3lutz, two 3loops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gObdzCNfA

Anyone know why the US only sent two ladies to 1989 Worlds? Debi Thomas medaled in 1988, so there should have been three.

There was a named skater rule back then. If they had wanted to send 3, they could only send Debi Thomas and no one else as skater #3. Unfortunately, Thomas was retired by then and probably had competed in at least one pro event before that.

 

[jenniferlyon]

Gee, does IMDb list actors for tiffany, Kristi and Michelle that like Midori never show up in the final cut? Or was there a disclaimor at the beginning “no Asians were represented in this revisionist history” that I missed? Or has Robbie been selling this in interviews as a nod to Hitchcock: just blond heroine battling a brunette nemesis?

I’ve already poked fun at the movie’s depiction of tonya’s unfair loss to Bradie T. at 86 SA, but as a whole it makes sense as a depiction of how Tonya saw her career and life. Instead of being happy she won the sp and lp and silver, she convinced herself she “wuz robbed” and of course it’s all because she’s poor and people look down on her, so f them!

I specifically looked for Asian skaters when I saw the movie because I'd read about the white-washing here on FSU and elsewhere. I did not see any.

 

[Karen-W]

Yes, I believe that was the "named skater" spot which was forfeited when she retired (Louis explained this in the Nationals Men's Freekskate thread).

Also new article on "I, Tonya" from a sportswriter from the Oregonian who covered the 1994. Warning to the Tonya sympathizers in advance: you won't like this:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2018/01/i_nauseated_the_oregonians_for.html

That doesn't surprise me. I graduated from college in 1995 and did my senior research paper (communication major) on a comparison of the bias in media coverage of Tonya's guilty plea. The Oregonian's coverage was the most anti-Tonya (compared to the AP and USA Today's coverage).

 

[4rkidz]

Just watched the movie, I think it was quite interesting. I always wondered why Tonya was so vilified before the whack and obviously her rough upbringing and behaviour influenced the response from the system. Even though it would appear there was documented evidence of both child abuse and domestic violence, society didn’t seem to care. Yet when implicated in the “whack” yet not criminally charged with anything people jumped on that band wagon. Obviously Nancy an innocent victim. But the lack of empathy for Tonya I think is sad. Not that she has helped herself, but considering what she went through not entirely surprising.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Back in the day, when I asked for a Jill Trenary hair cut...

...and this is what they gave me.