IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[ChelleC]

Icarus is also available for streaming on US netflix.

 

[Rafter]

Someone from a country that produced Ben Johnson shouldn’t be too smug.

I’m not being smug, I’m being pragmatic.

But if you want to believe that Canada’s one massive doping debacle = Russia’s (Putin’s) systemic doping culture, cheating and ultimate failure to cover it all up, you just go on believing that, little one.

 

[WildRose]

There was more than one athlete. There was a culture of doping and cheating. Officials were involved in covering up for athletes. There was something in that society that allowed that to happen. It happened in a different way than what happened in Russia, but it happened. I can see why you and other Canadians get so defensive when it is brought up. Must have been very painful. I just don't see how any can take glee in what is happening right now.

Because of Ben Johnson the Canadian Govt launched a public Commission of Inquiry, instituted a responsible drug-testing policy, and became a world leader in the fight against performance enhancing drugs. I am proud of how my country responded and the work it does on behalf of all athletes.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/dubin-inquiry/
“Following the drug scandal at the 1988 OLYMPIC GAMES in Seoul, when Ben Johnson was stripped of his gold medal after testing positive for steroids, the federal government established the Commission of Inquiry Into the Use of Drugs and Banned Practices Intended to Increase Athletic Performance. Ontario Appeal Court Chief Justice Charles Dubin was appointed to conduct the inquiry. Several months of shocking testimony about the rampant use of performance-enhancing substances among athletes led Dubin to criticize the testing policies and procedures of both the federal government and amateur sports associations in his report, released in June 1990. As a result, Canada strengthened its drug-testing program with the creation of the independent nonprofit Canadian Anti-Doping Organization in April 1991. The organization is responsible for drug-testing policy, practice and implementation in Canada. Canada is now an internationally recognized leader in the fight against performance-enhancing substances, but the commission has been ignored in other countries.”

 

[skatingguy]

Here is the full commission report that @WildRose is referring to.

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO THE USE OF DRUGS AND BANNED PRACTICES INTENDED TO INCREASE ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE
The Honourable Charles L. Dubin Commissioner
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/bcp-pco/CP32-56-1990-1-eng.pdf

 

[skatingguy]

Icarus is also available for streaming on US netflix.

It's also on Netflix in Canada.

 

[Rafter]

There was more than one athlete. There was a culture of doping and cheating. Officials were involved in covering up for athletes. There was something in that society that allowed that to happen. It happened in a different way than what happened in Russia, but it happened. I can see why you and other Canadians get so defensive when it is brought up. Must have been very painful. I just don't see how any can take glee in what is happening right now.

Who were the other athletes?

I thought Ben Johnson trained in the USA. Or maybe that was Donovan Bailey.

Anyway, I’m not taking glee but OTOH I have no sympathy for the Russians, (outside of Bukin because he really does seem blindsided by it). You reap what you sow.

 

[skatingguy]

Who were the other athletes?

I thought Ben Johnson trained in the USA. Or maybe that was Donovan Bailey.

Anyway, I’m taking glee but OTOH I have no sympathy for the Russians, (outside of Bukin because he really does seem blindsided by it). You reap what you sow.

I couldn't find a complete list, but steroid use was common practice in some sports (athletics, weightlifting) in the 1980's and dozens of Canadian athletes were involved.

 

[BlueRidge]

There are a lot of Russians who are reaping the harm from the actions of the Russian establishment that pursued winning in Sochi at all costs who aren't responsible. This is a cloud hanging over all the athletes who will compete in Korea and all of the Russians fans who had no say in any decision to have a systematic doping regime. Those in the Russian sports establishment who carried out the doping really hurt many people.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Anyway, I’m taking glee but OTOH I have no sympathy for the Russians, (outside of Bukin because he really does seem blindsided by it). You reap what you sow.

Islamic Terrorists say the same when they kill civilians in and from western countries. Where do you live Rafter? is your country on their list?

 

[WildRose]

There are a lot of Russians who are reaping the harm from the actions of the Russian establishment that pursued winning in Sochi at all costs who aren't responsible. This is a cloud hanging over all the athletes who will compete in Korea and all of the Russians fans who had no say in any decision to have a systematic doping regime. Those in the Russian sports establishment who carried out the doping really hurt many people.

Exactly, ultimately it’s the athletes who pay the price whether they knowingly doped or were given something they thought was ok because a Coach or trusted official or medical person told them it was. And it’s not just about getting caught and missing the Games, there could be effects on their health years down the road. There is a reason performance enhancing drugs are banned.

 

[Vagabond]

However, with the Russians this time IOC went much further, not only denying them the presumption of innocence, but denying them the right of defense. And worse yet - this is a special treatment that is being applied only exclusively to Russians.

So, yes, Russia has been involved in a state based doping scheme. But it doesn't justify THIS. Again, either you ban the entire country as a punishment (punishing the wrong people, of course, but who cares), or you stop this nonsense and treat the Russian athletes like any other athlete.

While this might make sense in the abstract, the Russian Olympic Committee agreed to these terms:

To invite individual Russian athletes to the Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018 according to the following guidelines:

• The invitation list will be determined, at its absolute discretion, by a panel chaired by Valerie Fourneyron, Chair of the ITA. The panel will include members of the Pre-Games Testing Task Force: one appointed by WADA, one by the DFSU and one by the IOC, Dr Richard Budgett.
• This panel will be guided in its decisions by the following principles:
• It can only consider athletes who have qualified according to the qualification standards of their respective sport.

Nonsense it may be, but the R.O.C. is bound by the terms of its agreement.

 

[BlueRidge]

So isn't the Russian Olympic Committee the body that was being sanctioned for being involved in the doping? So basically IOC makes this agreement with the corrupt body and that body's decisions are what determine how the athletes will be treated. They are entirely at the mercy of the body that was integral to the problem in the first place.

Yeah, who could complain about that?

 

[topaz]

Exactly, ultimately it’s the athletes who pay the price whether they knowingly doped or were given something they thought was ok because a Coach or trusted official or medical person told them it was. And it’s not just about getting caught and missing the Games, there could be effects on their health years down the road. There is a reason performance enhancing drugs are banned.

I completely agree with this. However, " there could be effects on their health years down the road"; I think we have seen and we are seeing the effects of PED on Russian athletes.

 

[pointbleu]

This link can not be viewed outside the country/geo blocked.

Here is a working link in French

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3HqneDFIoE

/

The video you have posted is not the same as the link I have provided nor it talks about the points I wanted to expose.

I am sure as you don't speak French you just wanted to help...
But I wanted to clarify not to fool people. They are two distinct videos.

 

[skatingguy]

The video you have posted is not the same as the link I have provided nor it talks about the points I wanted to expose.

I am sure as you don't speak French you just wanted to help...
But I wanted to clarify not to fool people. They are two distinct videos.

I don't think that @Tinami Amori is in Canada, and so couldn't access the video link you posted.

 

[pointbleu]

I don't think that @Tinami Amori is in Canada, and so couldn't access the video link you posted.

No, but by writing "here is a working link to the video", it leads people to think it was the original video put on YouTube which it is not.

 

[skatingguy]

No, but by writing "here is a working link to the video", it leads people to think it was the original video put on YouTube which it is not.

Fair point.

 

[Tinami Amori]

The video you have posted is not the same as the link I have provided nor it talks about the points I wanted to expose. I am sure as you don't speak French you just wanted to help...
But I wanted to clarify not to fool people. They are two distinct videos.

non… je ne parle pas francais mais... je parle louchebem russe…

french or no french, I could not open the links you posted even to listen, but read description. the youtube video is as close as it gets. sorry for the confusion..

On another note...... this time a Russian screw up...
Here is an interesting twist…. . So as of this morning we had 169 athletes with invitation, and 171 coaches/officials (total of 340 names out of 369 expected +/- 1 or 2 missed by me in all this hoopla).

Now, this is not highly publicized in the Russian press, and certainly not in outside press, so this is what I gathered…. As of yesterday the names of Eleseev (biathlon) and Belyakova (ladies hockey) were not on the final invitation list, but were “ok-ed” on the preliminary list.

When the Russian side started inquiry with IOC, turned out that the Russian side made an administrative error, aka DUMB TYPO, and did not include these two names on the final list sent for “invitations”… And, for some odd reasons, IOC did add them, post-factum to the invitations list, so now they are in…….

http://www.sport-express.ru/olympic...olimpiadu-iz-za-tehnicheskoy-oshibki-1363636/

Biathlon/Eleseev
https://news.sportbox.ru/olympics/s...hnik_Jelisejev_vystupit_na_Olimpiade_v_Koreje

Ladies Hockey/Belyakova
https://news.sportbox.ru/olympics/s...a_v_sostav_zhenskoj_sbornoj_Rossii_na_OI_2018

i am starting to loose track... of names, numbers...

 

[overedge]

IIRC the Canadian doping around Ben Johnson mostly involved other athletes training with the same coach, Charlie Francis. It certainly wasn't a massive widespread scheme across multiple sports like in Russia.

Fun fact: Charlie Francis' dad was a skating coach, and he created the Canasta Tango compulsory dance.

 

[Vagabond]

So isn't the Russian Olympic Committee the body that was being sanctioned for being involved in the doping? So basically IOC makes this agreement with the corrupt body and that body's decisions are what determine how the athletes will be treated. They are entirely at the mercy of the body that was integral to the problem in the first place.

Yeah, who could complain about that?

With whom else should the I.O.C. have made a deal, if not the R.O.C.?

 

[Bellanca]

Holy smokes, this thread has gone right over the cliff in fifth gear!

I think I need a belt of @AngieNikodinovLove's Wild Turkey reserved exclusively for Paul Poirier.

And, did I just scroll past a comment that addressed @allezfred as "little one?" Are you kidding me?!

Everything the Olympic Games stand for, not currently on display in this thread at the moment.

 

[Willin]

@Weve3 Maybe this thread be should added to Team Trainwreck?

 

[caseyedwards]

With whom else should the I.O.C. have made a deal, if not the R.O.C.?

No one until everyone in Russian sports and government is fired or reisgns

 

[MacMadame]

Fun fact: Charlie Francis' dad was a skating coach, and he created the Canasta Tango compulsory dance.

Oh, I love that dance!

With whom else should the I.O.C. have made a deal, if not the R.O.C.?

I don't know. The IOC seems overly cozy with the ROC from my POV. I am not impressed.

 

[seabm7]

An English version of news posted by TASS. Nothing new here, but much better translation,

http://tass.com/sport/986948

 

[lala]

I'm sure Stolbova and Bukin's case confirmed in Russian heads it is a political game against Russia. It will not help the renewal of the Russian sports. It must be explained and prove. I think if the state sponsored cheating is real the IOC and the WADA need the support of Russian society, people.

 

[skatingguy]

An English version of news posted by TASS. Nothing new here, but much better translation,

http://tass.com/sport/986948

Actually this is helpful because of this line:

"However, we believe it is possible that some athletes would decide against the participation [in the Olympics] as a gesture of solidarity," Pozdnyakov said.

That was causing some confusion earlier because in the Google translated document it made it sound like the athletes who were not invited would not be replaced because of solidarity. Here it's clearer that this is a possibility and not a policy. It almost sounds like Pozdnyakov is hoping that the athletes will refuse to attend in solidarity with those not invited.

 

[millyskate]

There are a lot of Russians who are reaping the harm from the actions of the Russian establishment that pursued winning in Sochi at all costs who aren't responsible. This is a cloud hanging over all the athletes who will compete in Korea and all of the Russians fans who had no say in any decision to have a systematic doping regime. Those in the Russian sports establishment who carried out the doping really hurt many people.

The Rodchenkov documentary shows a chilling moment - when Rodchenkov says he realised Putin had used Sochi to boost nationalist sentiment, and justify his war against Ukraine. These things have terrible consequences.

 

[aftershocks]

Oh boy, I'd really rather see S/K's Carmen rather than T/M's dreadful Candyman at the Olympics! T/M give bumblebees a bad name with their costume get-up. (((Sigh)))

Why can't they outlaw a team for an egregious program concept and WTF music?

Sad for Stolbova/Klimov and Stepanova/Bukin.

 

[caseyedwards]

Oh, I love that dance!


I don't know. The IOC seems overly cozy with the ROC from my POV. I am not impressed.

I guess as long as you have the example of the IAAF and ipc banning all Russians ioc not taking that step makes the ioc looks like it’s in Russia’s pocket but didn’t ioc just ban almost all Russia’s medal contenders?! Lol

The Rodchenkov documentary shows a chilling moment - when Rodchenkov says he realised Putin had used Sochi to boost nationalist sentiment, and justify his war against Ukraine. These things have terrible consequences.

This is such a minority opinion in Russia! Shows an almost totally westernized liberal pro American Russian. Surprising he would do anything pro russia. He didn’t think cheating for sports and creating phony success would cause nationalism. Duh