IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[BlueRidge]

I wonder if someone on twitter isn't on the trail saying that the commission must have mistaken Bukin for Bobrova since all 2014 Sotchi athletes are out.

shoot me

 

[Rafter]

Interesting how the Russians win at all costs attitude for Sochi Gold medals is coming back to bite them now.

 

[Cherub721]

I wonder if someone on twitter isn't on the trail saying that the commission must have mistaken Bukin for Bobrova since all 2014 Sotchi athletes are out.

That makes no sense. Fedor and Dmitri got invited.

 

[BlueRidge]

Yeah, I've been one of their biggest fans for years but if Bukin doesn't get his invite i think they should just retire or split. Too bad he was the better partner. This Russian OAR thing is not just for 2018, it's indefinite and once he has this black mark of not being invited, they should presume he won't be invited in 2022 either, and, well, I don't think they're in it just for Worlds.

Let's get to the nitpicky level of unfairness here. I can think of three athletes who were in Sochi, Russian ice dancers, two who won medals, who because they did not qualify for the Olys are under no scrutiny and anything that may be out there about them, however small, that might have caused them trouble will never be dug up and they can continue on unscathed if they choose. But Bukin is toast because he qualified for the Olys.

 

[caseyedwards]

Interesting how the Russians win at all costs attitude for Sochi Gold medals is coming back to bite them now.

Well Sochi was a once in a generation event! It had to go well.

 

[skatingguy]

What does the end of the article means ? That the reason might be that Bukin wasn't at a precise location for a doping test ? That basically there could have been a misunderstanding or something like that about a location, and that the agent notify it but it was still in the database ?

All the athletes are required to submit to the doping agencies a time and place where they will be so that they can be randomly tested out of competition. They have do this for several months in advance, and if a tester shows up and they are not where they said they would be, there biological passport will be flagged. If this should happen several times they could face a doping ban. I hope the answers your questions.

 

[Anyasnake]

All the athletes are required to submit to the doping agencies a time and place where they will be so that they can be randomly tested out of competition. They have do this for several months in advance, and if a tester shows up and they are not where they said they would be, there biological passport will be flagged. If this show happen several times they could face a doping ban. I hope the answers your questions.

Yes, thank you very much !
But his coach said it never happenned, so really it's odd.

 

[VGThuy]

Let's get to the nitpicky level of unfairness here. I can think of three athletes who were in Sochi, Russian ice dancers, two who won medals, who because they did not qualify for the Olys are under no scrutiny and anything that may be out there about them, however small, that might have caused them trouble will never be dug up and they can continue on unscathed if they choose. But Bukin is toast because he qualified for the Olys.

Is it unfair though? By qualifying and submitting yourself to the Olympics, in these times, you're allowing yourself to be put under more scrutiny. They knew they would be when it was announced that OAR would only be able to go by invite only and had to pass whatever process the IOC came up with. I know athletes don't really have free will and they had already invested so much of their life to compete at the Olympics, but this process came with the territory of being able to compete at the Olympics.

 

[skatingguy]

... the 28th seems FAR away.

One question though : the IOC wants to have a "clean generation" of Russian athletes. Okay, fair enough. Does that mean that if Bukin cannot compete in Korea, his chances for 2022 are over ? Because it will follow him, and I don't see the IOC allowing him to compete if there was ever a suspicion because as they said : "it will take years to clean Russian sports". I wish they could be as direct with him as possible. If he cannot compete in 4 years, let him know at least. Messy stuff.

I don't think we'll know the status of athletes from Russia going forward for a little while. There still doing more testing on the samples from Sochi and studying the database that was recovered in October which could identify more athletes involved in the doping scheme and there are still outstanding issues that the Russians have not complied with that WADA has set as requirements. We'll wait and see if Russia is reinstated for the Closing Ceremonies of these Olympics and then see where things stand for 2020. We'll have a better idea of whether things are back to normal for 2022 at that time.

 

[Elkmaria]

I wonder if this 'solidarity' decision was initiated by the athletes themselves. I hope it was. Otherwise this is totally unnecessary and does not help anyone. Well, it does not help anyone anyway, but if the athletes made this decision, it means that this sacrifice is at least voluntary.

 

[BlueRidge]

Is it unfair though? By qualifying and submitting yourself to the Olympics, in these times, you're allowing yourself to be put under more scrutiny. They knew they would be when it was announced that OAR would only be able to go by invite only and had to pass whatever process the IOC came up with. I know athletes don't really have free will and they had already invested so much of their life to compete at the Olympics, but this process came with the territory of being able to compete at the Olympics.

It is unfair if they can't continue skating going forward. If they are banned from this and that's the end of it. No process to appeal or anything but it is a black mark that ends their careers.

I've made myself clear about the Olys. I think they are a crock of hooey for nationalists and money makers but I know they mean everything to the athletes. That's just a shame.

 

[skatingguy]

Yes, thank you very much !
But his coach said it never happenned, so really it's odd.

My reading of the article - which is not crystal clear because I'm not a Russian speaker and am relying on a Google translation - is that his coach saidthe flag in his file was older and may have been removed. Because the final decision has not come down from the IOC the athletes, and their teams have not been informed. Hopefully we'll know more on Saturday.

 

[BlueRidge]

Well Sochi was a once in a generation event! It had to go well.

Score! This is exactly right. They had to have all those wins in Sochi, the future and the athletes and anything else be damned.

 

[millyskate]

re: If missing tests are an issue, there have been a number of athletes from the UK (I don't follow other countries so closely) in trouble for missing tests they retrospectively claimed never knew existed. Or had phoney excuses for. Just that not being from Russia, they managed to argue their way through it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...08/Mo-Farah-asleep-for-missed-drugs-test.html

My problem with this excruciatingly pedantic process is the conversely lax attitude towards so of the worlds' biggest stars - who bring in money for the IOC.

 

[skatingguy]

As if they are the only ones. Let's not be hypocrits. All countries do it. To some extent.

No, not all countries do. Some countries have very good records when it comes to doping bans.

 

[hanca]

I'm not impressed with so called "credentials" of posters whose response to someone is to call them idiots. It's a childish reaction (I imagine they stomped their feet too).

i doubt I will their name calling !

Lack of social skills does not necessarily imply lack of knowledge about skating.

 

[VGThuy]

re: If missing tests are an issue, there have been a number of athletes from the UK (I don't follow other countries so closely) in trouble for missing tests they retrospectively claimed never knew existed. Or had phoney excuses for. Just that not being from Russia, they managed to argue their way through it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...08/Mo-Farah-asleep-for-missed-drugs-test.html

My problem with this excruciatingly pedantic process is the conversely lax attitude towards so of the worlds' biggest stars - who bring in money for the IOC.

I think Russia is singled out because of the whole state-sponsored doping issue bringing doubt to every Russian athlete (due to no fault of the athletes). It does beg the question of how many clean athletes of other countries would have been barred from competing if they were held under the same standard (one that Russia sort of brought on itself with the doping scheme)?

 

[skatingguy]

re: If missing tests are an issue, there have been a number of athletes from the UK (I don't follow other countries so closely) in trouble for missing tests they retrospectively claimed never knew existed. Or had phoney excuses for. Just that not being from Russia, they managed to argue their way through it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...08/Mo-Farah-asleep-for-missed-drugs-test.html

My problem with this excruciatingly pedantic process is the conversely lax attitude towards so of the worlds' biggest stars - who bring in money for the IOC.

So missing one test would not normally cause an issue for an athlete, but missing multiple tests might. I posted previously about French tennis play, Alize Cornet, who is facing a possible doping ban for missing 3 tests. Like other doping infractions, there will be a hearing, she will be able to present evidence in her favour, and a decision will be made. She can then appeal, if she chooses, to Court for Arbitration for Sport which can overturn, or reduce any ban that might be levied.

As @VIETgrlTerifa said, the Russians are being treated differently as a result of doping scandal and we don't know what impact this sort of missed test would have on participation of an equivalent Russian athlete. There are some very high profile Russian athletes who, apparently, are not being invited to the games and that would be costing the IOC just as much money as an athlete from the United Kingdom, maybe more because the Olympics have always been more important in Russia than in many Western countries.

 

[millyskate]

I think Russia is singled out because of the whole state-sponsored doping issue bringing doubt to every Russian athlete (due to no fault of the athletes). It does beg the question of how many clean athletes of other countries would have been barred from competing if they were held under the same standard (one that Russia sort of brought on itself with the doping scheme)?

Yes. There are several high profile athletes who have been pushing the system with regards to even the general rules in place (number of missed tests, highly dodgy TUEs, names on plenty of suspect lists of labs and doctors etc). It seems these athletes have a better chance of escaping the consequence of these fairly lax rules than the current Russian team has of escaping the consequences of these really strict rules, if that makes sense. That's my discomfort.

 

[VGThuy]

Yes. There are several high profile athletes who have been pushing the system with regards to even the general rules in place (number of missed tests, highly dodgy TUEs, names on plenty of suspect lists of labs and doctors etc). It seems these athletes have a better chance of escaping the consequence of these fairly lax rules than the current Russian team has of escaping the consequences of these really strict rules, if that makes sense. That's my discomfort.

I think I'm not as uncomfortable because I'm used to it with American law where there are different standards and tests used depending on the circumstances where a set of facts may past muster under a less stringent test but then fail to meet the standards of a more stringent test. I do understand the unfairness and I think it would be interesting and educational to see a list of competing athletes from other countries that would have been barred based on the criteria the IOC just provided to us.

 

[pat c]

thanks. explain this if you can, given i understood the info correctly: i heard that an athlete can mess up a sample/test simply by drinking on his day off too much alcohol (which is not a performance helper) or from a recreational drug usage (also while on vacation) which is also not a performance enhancer but the contrary.. WADA's role is to make sure an athlete does not get unfair advantage through chemicals. But why does it bother with alcohol and recreational drugs?

Alcohol can mask other drugs and rec drugs like marijuana? Tho it doesn't actually enhance your physical performance, mentally it might. I'm thinking back to when this guy won in snowboarding in 98:
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...liati-touts-pot-as-performance-enhancing-drug

And for me, whether you are skiing, or snowboarding, or riding a road bike, or working out at the gym, (marijuana use) puts you in the moment.

Plus it's also illegal in some countries, so depending on where the olys are being held.

As if they are the only ones. Let's not be hypocrits. All countries do it. To some extent.

Not all countries and not all sports. But it is a problem.

 

[millyskate]

I think I'm not as uncomfortable because I'm used to it with American law where there are different standards and tests used depending on the circumstances where a set of facts may past muster under a less stringent test but then fail to meet the standards of a more stringent test. I do understand the unfairness and I think it would be interesting and educational to see a list of competing athletes from other countries that would have been barred based on the criteria the IOC just provided to us.

That's not quite what I meant - I understand the different standards (although not sure it's right in this case), but if there are two lists of standards, an athlete should face the same level of accountability towards the list that is applicable to him. There can be a list A and a list B.
ie if Athlete A has failings when compared to his list A, but manages to talk himself out of trouble

it's not ok for Athlete B to be banned without explanation, when there is some minor suspect activity measured against his list B.

This is the impression I'm getting now.

 

[skatingguy]

That's not quite what I meant - I understand the different standards (although not sure it's right in this case), but if there are two lists of standards, an athlete should face the same level of accountability towards the list that is applicable to him. There can be a list A and a list B.
ie if Athlete A has failings when compared to his list A, but manages to talk himself out of trouble

it's not ok for Athlete B to be banned without explanation, when there is some minor suspect activity measured against his list B.

This is the impression I'm getting now.

I understand what you're saying and it is frustrating and I can't imagine how difficult it is for the athletes themselves. Maybe it's distinction without a difference, I'm not sure, but the athletes from Russia are not banned, they're just not invited to the Olympics. Maybe more information will be forthcoming once the decision has been released.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

If that is the standard, many athletes from many countries could be disqualified. Why is this being used only for athletes from Russia?

I hate the IOC. I wish I could avoid watching the Olympics but I can't.

I'm picturing your being strapped into a chair with your eyes being held open by clamps forced to watch like Malcolm McDowell's character in the film of "A Clockwork Orange"...

but that isn't your reality, is it? Does it even register with you how ridiculously over-the-top melodramatic your posting is here?

Just. Don't . Watch. (if doing so would bother you that much).

 

[Vash01]

I understand what you're saying and it is frustrating and I can't imagine how difficult it is for the athletes themselves. Maybe it's distinction without a difference, I'm not sure, but the athletes from Russia are not banned, they're just not invited to the Olympics. Maybe more information will be forthcoming once the decision has been released.

This is just a play on words. ' not invited to the Olympics' is equivalent to 'being banned' from the Olympics because in neither case the athlete can participate in the games.

 

[Vash01]

I'm picturing your being strapped into a chair with your eyes being held open by clamps forced to watch like Malcolm McDowell's character in the film of "A Clockwork Orange"...

but that isn't your reality, is it? Does it even register with you how ridiculously over-the-top melodramatic your posting is here?

Just. Don't . Watch. (if doing so would bother you that much).

You are being extremely rude. There is nothing melodramatic about my post. Did it ever occur to you that as a fan I can't help but watch the games, no matter how upset I feel about the unfairness toward some athletes?

YOU are the one creating a hypothetical, OTT statement like being strapped in a chair. Get lost.

 

[barbarafan]

I understand what you're saying and it is frustrating and I can't imagine how difficult it is for the athletes themselves. Maybe it's distinction without a difference, I'm not sure, but the athletes from Russia are not banned, they're just not invited to the Olympics. Maybe more information will be forthcoming once the decision has been released.

Maybe this is all part of the deals made. Russia has still refused to release samples. The McLaren report indicates a female skater with gold and silver medal from Sochi did have a tampered sample...ie too much salt for a human or DNA from 2 people and STolbova is the only person this fits perhaps Russia has agreed for her to not be invited in exchange for details not to be released which would of course lead to losing not only the silver medal but the gold team medal.So a sacrifice given to lay off the other skaters. If this is the case and she really is guilty then she is getting off really lightly.

 

[RoseRed]

Just to be exact, and I would suggest you change your post.

The aforementioned double medalist from Sochi (either Stolbova or someone else) didn't have urine samples with wrong DNA and impossible salt readings, but rather scratches on the bottle, or whatever it's called. Also, the same unnamed medalist was checked, and it was found that there was nothing else suspicious about her probe, neither she was in the lists provided by Rodchenkov.

Admit, it's really not the same.

Actually, I'm talking about salt readings, not scratches. https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/n...regarding-conclusion-of-mclaren-investigation

Tampering with original sample established by 2 [sport] athletes, winners of four Sochi Olympic Gold medals, and a female Silver medal winner in [sport] with physiologically impossible salt readings.

I saw it stated somewhere else that the female was a gold and silver medalist, but it's possible that was an error. I also saw the reference to multiple DNA samples elsewhere, but I can't find that link.

And again, I never said it was Stolbova or that that was the reason. I said it was something people have suggested as a possible reason

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think there's a difference between an in competition test and out of competition test for some substances. I've also read articles about alcohol being used a masking agent, so that could be the issue. I will have to read more.

thank you for reply and links. So, does that mean that if an athlete has 5 precious days for a vacation, flies to Italy and drinks lots of his/hers favorite vine, and scheduled for a “test” right upon return, he/she can not enjoy a vacation? Where is the line between testing for hidden unauthorized substances and letting person enjoy a normal alcoholic product?

Alcohol can mask other drugs and rec drugs like marijuana? Tho it doesn't actually enhance your physical performance, mentally it might. I'm thinking back to when this guy won in snowboarding in 98:
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...liati-touts-pot-as-performance-enhancing-drug
And for me, whether you are skiing, or snowboarding, or riding a road bike, or working out at the gym, (marijuana use) puts you in the moment.

Thank you for the link and info…. But what “puts you in the moment” is very subjective, to some it is physical, to some it is mental, to some it is a substance that may or may not be banned…. I once seen a young man who “gets a moment” from sniffing petrol… My friend “gets a moment” from doing some weird new-ager hottuber yoga…. Another person drinks regular tea with 5 strong tea-bags in the hot water… Is WADA/testing authorities hunting for “dangerous steroid and substances” or are they trying to weed out ANYTHING (even non-chemical) that can help an athlete mentally of physically?

What does the end of the article means ? That the reason might be that Bukin wasn't at a precise location for a doping test ? That basically there could have been a misunderstanding or something like that about a location, and that the agent notify it but it was still in the database ?

I still think Bukin had to have been missing something to not get approved. Whether or not that is his fault or within his control is something that I need to see to determine how I feel about the whole process. Either way it truly sucks as an ice dance fan.

… again, the comments in the article are “assumptions”, seems like Bukin was absent from 1 appointment, got a mark, but the mark was later eliminated because he did reschedule. It also says several athletes who received invitations had such marks and made it up later, and that it takes several “no-show” marks to be in default (not just 1).

I hate the IOC..

that’s not very productive and a waist of emotion. it is best to deal with current situation, and later figure out how to deal with IOC in the future (whatever it takes).

 

[rfisher]

Um, I'd think Russia submitted all the alternates names along with the planned team regardless since an injury could have caused one to be substituted, so A/R and Z/G's names would have been on the original list. They had to have them cleared whether they were activated or not. I don't think that's who the weaker athletes referred to. Plus, come on people. How many mistakes are there when you use Google translate. Why don't we just let the Russian speakers report what the Russian OC says when the final list is out. I really have to wonder why the Russian skating fed released this to the press early. They had to have a reason besides causing anxiety among all the skaters.